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5p4rtan

A Returning Player's Perspective

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I'm just returning back to WoWs after about a years hiatus.  I enjoyed the playing Carriers back before the changes, and I enjoy the changes done as well, just a different play style is all.  What I have noticed though is the crazy AA rating just about every ship has now.  It doesn't matter if they have cooldowns to use or not for AA defense, it's just ALWAYS there.

I've been playing the Lexington and more recently the Graf Zeppelin.  I've learned that if I get stuck in a T10 game, then my planes can't even get close to other ships w/o losing the whole squad.

 

I understand the dislike of feeling helpless from other ship classes, but to have such powerful passive AA is not fun or engaging by any means necessary. Passive = lazy.  Make it more engaging for everyone and give these crazy AA ratings cool downs that can be activated.

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Welcome back!  Carriers don't uptier very well, just like most other ship classes.  Not sure if this was the case before the rework, but it certainly is now.  Not surprisingly, the T10 carriers are alot more effective against T10 than the T8 carriers.

The way AA now works, there is an element of cooldown with the priority sector reinforcement, but the best defense against planes by far is overlapping AA auras.  Very few ships are strong enough to stop a T10 carrier strike on their own.

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5 minutes ago, Maddau said:

Very few ships are strong enough to stop a T10 carrier strike on their own.

All this has happened before, and all this will happen again..

 

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15 minutes ago, Maddau said:

Welcome back!  Carriers don't uptier very well, just like most other ship classes.  Not sure if this was the case before the rework, but it certainly is now.  Not surprisingly, the T10 carriers are alot more effective against T10 than the T8 carriers.

The way AA now works, there is an element of cooldown with the priority sector reinforcement, but the best defense against planes by far is overlapping AA auras.  Very few ships are strong enough to stop a T10 carrier strike on their own.

So I should get my money back on the Graf and just shoot to T10?  Seems counter productive for WG....

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Better yet be like Anakin Skywalker and leave the darkside.  Fear leads to hate, hate leads to the darkside, the darkside leads to CVs.

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30 minutes ago, Maddau said:

 Very few ships are strong enough to stop a T10 carrier strike on their own.

You don't need to stop a T10 strike, just make it more expensive to strike you than the guy next to you and much of the time they'll leave you alone.

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T10 is the only way I know to guarentee you are never uptiered.  I manage my expectations when playing lower tiers accordingly.  

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3 hours ago, 5p4rtan said:

I'm just returning back to WoWs after about a years hiatus.  I enjoyed the playing Carriers back before the changes, and I enjoy the changes done as well, just a different play style is all.  What I have noticed though is the crazy AA rating just about every ship has now.  It doesn't matter if they have cooldowns to use or not for AA defense, it's just ALWAYS there.

I've been playing the Lexington and more recently the Graf Zeppelin.  I've learned that if I get stuck in a T10 game, then my planes can't even get close to other ships w/o losing the whole squad.

 

I understand the dislike of feeling helpless from other ship classes, but to have such powerful passive AA is not fun or engaging by any means necessary. Passive = lazy.  Make it more engaging for everyone and give these crazy AA ratings cool downs that can be activated.

Even low tier CVs are OP spotters.

Best to hang back (when up tiered) & spot at the beginning & wait until some AA gets stripped & try to concentrate on singled out ships (to avoid overlapping AA).

Also...for lower tiers it's good as soon as you launch (at least at the start...for a few launches or more depending on just how heavy the T10 balance is against your T8) to make an attack (not against an actual target but just) to send some planes back to the ship right away so they can regenerate faster so you don't run out of reserves later in the battle.

I've only played CVs on PTS myself but the forumites have given these tips to help out those having troubles.

Hopefully it helps you out.

There has also been a major change to MM.

Your 1st 20 battles (at all tiers...& it's 20 different battles for both random & co-op so you can't burn the random ones off in co-op unfortunately) will more than likely be against higher tiers in each tier but after that 1st 20 there will be a reset (for that tier...remember you need to do this for each tier) & from then on you will only be bottom tier in no more than 8 of the last 20 battles.

It may be best to run some other T8 ship besides CVs until you reach that 20 game mark as it just goes by tier no matter what ship type you play & CVs are the worst ship for being bottom tier in.

Hope this helps out also :-)

Oh yeah...& welcome back :-)

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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20 hours ago, Maddau said:

Welcome back!  Carriers don't uptier very well, just like most other ship classes.  Not sure if this was the case before the rework, but it certainly is now. 

Not even close to correct.  T8 CV work just fine in Tier 10, the CV pilot just needs to know how to dodge flak and use proper attack runs.  

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2 hours ago, brdhntr said:

Not even close to correct.  T8 CV work just fine in Tier 10, the CV pilot just needs to know how to dodge flak and use proper attack runs.  

Not entirely true.  Some T-8 cv (Saipan) does not have the reserves to keep up with unavoidable losses attacking even some T-10 ships that are alone let alone when they group up.  Some ships (like Kaga) cant get close enough to drop if more than 1 ship are stacked on top of each other, regardless of ability to avoid flak.  

Now if you get a T-10 match with a lot of low AA rating BB's and DD's that like to spread out and sail off solo you will do well but MM can go in the opposite direction and give you targets you can hit without getting deplaned.

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5 hours ago, brdhntr said:

Not even close to correct.  T8 CV work just fine in Tier 10, the CV pilot just needs to know how to dodge flak and use proper attack runs.  

:cap_hmm: Something tells me you have a Enterprise in your port.  If so, I envy you!

Edited by Maddau

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2 hours ago, Maddau said:

:cap_hmm: Something tells me you have a Enterprise in your port.  If so, I envy you!

Either that or Implacable.  The tankie planes are nice when uptiered.

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Here's the thing.  Planes are how the carrier does damage.  That's the basic requirement of ALL ships in the game, they have to do damage.  Carriers can have their damage mitigated in several ways.

First, plane mounted weapons do very little damage.  This is further reduced by their reduced ability to penetrate armour.

Second, plane mounted weapons are very inaccurate.  You might fire a whole spread of rockets and land one or two hits... and have none of them penetrate the enemy armour.  You might drop bombs and have them miss despite dropping with the reticle correctly positioned.  You don't GET a targeting aid for torpedoes, you just have to guess.

Third, the firing rate of plane attacks is VERY slow, because planes get one attack and have to go back to the carrier.  Every additional attack is slowed down by travel time.

Fourth, planes can be SHOT DOWN.  No other ship has this defense against their offense.  You can't shoot down gun shells, you can't shoot down torpedoes.  Sure, it's POSSIBLE to disable and destroy a ship's guns or torpedo tubes, but these events are pretty uncommon, and can be quickly remedied.

My point in all of this is that carrier damage is ALREADY very minimal, at least at up to tier 6 (as far as I've got so far).  Perhaps it gets better later on.  Either way, it seems to me the real complaint about carriers is not that they do too much damage (they don't), so much as that they can do damage with relative impunity.  Unless someone has spotted the carrier, you can't counterattack.  However, the carrier pays for THIS too, by being almost entirely defenseless against attack.  How much more do people need to have carriers hamstrung?  They already do very little damage, and have no defense beyond not being detected.

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On 4/28/2020 at 8:47 PM, Maddau said:

:cap_hmm: Something tells me you have a Enterprise in your port.  If so, I envy you!

Nope, Lex, Implacable, and Shokaku.  I dislike the carrier ship interaction enough I won't spend money on a premium carrier.  I play them for CW because I do decent in them, and to practice once in a great while.  They don't give me trouble doing strikes, unless I really mess up.  You have to be careful about attack angles, especially the retreat, but I rarely find myself in a spot where I'm going to lose my squad before it gets the strike in and I am able to manage planes to keep strikes going until the end of the game.  If I am low on planes it's because I did something i shouldn't have.  It gets really bad late at night when I'm playing on tilt because the teams are so bad and I try to force things.  But it comes down to something I did wrong, not that the enemy team had such great AA I was shut down.  

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On 4/29/2020 at 3:23 AM, Vego_Mohenjo said:

Here's the thing.  Planes are how the carrier does damage.  That's the basic requirement of ALL ships in the game, they have to do damage.  Carriers can have their damage mitigated in several ways.

First, plane mounted weapons do very little damage.  This is further reduced by their reduced ability to penetrate armour.

Second, plane mounted weapons are very inaccurate.  You might fire a whole spread of rockets and land one or two hits... and have none of them penetrate the enemy armour.  You might drop bombs and have them miss despite dropping with the reticle correctly positioned.  You don't GET a targeting aid for torpedoes, you just have to guess.

Third, the firing rate of plane attacks is VERY slow, because planes get one attack and have to go back to the carrier.  Every additional attack is slowed down by travel time.

Fourth, planes can be SHOT DOWN.  No other ship has this defense against their offense.  You can't shoot down gun shells, you can't shoot down torpedoes.  Sure, it's POSSIBLE to disable and destroy a ship's guns or torpedo tubes, but these events are pretty uncommon, and can be quickly remedied.

My point in all of this is that carrier damage is ALREADY very minimal, at least at up to tier 6 (as far as I've got so far).  Perhaps it gets better later on.  Either way, it seems to me the real complaint about carriers is not that they do too much damage (they don't), so much as that they can do damage with relative impunity.  Unless someone has spotted the carrier, you can't counterattack.  However, the carrier pays for THIS too, by being almost entirely defenseless against attack.  How much more do people need to have carriers hamstrung?  They already do very little damage, and have no defense beyond not being detected.

You are playing carriers in COOP where it is hard to get damage because of the smaller teams, and the way the bots yolo.  If you are only getting one or two hits with rockets, you are doing it wrong, especially since bots don't dodge carrier planes.  

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Shot of a Coop game with Ranger.  I focused on getting damage, which meant I ignored the DD's and worked to get DOT on BB's.  There were only 3, but managed almost 72k damage.  

shot-20.04.30_14.46.37-0204.jpg

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Bots do dodge, I see it all the time.  They even occasionally just stop in place for a second (usually to avoid a torpdeo).

Firing the rockets is very inaccurate.  Bombs too.  You can line up that reticle perfectly and several weapons will spray out to the sides, missing everything.  Other ships can say the same (Battleships, especially), but they can just fire again right away.  Carriers can't, they need to wait to reload the planes and fly all the way back to the target.

I've had games on occasion where I score damage like that.  They're rare.  Most games with carriers in them have the carrier as the bottom of the team list for damage (and xp and everything else).

Yes, I don't pvp, and having fewer targets might be a consideration, except that all the other ships on my team have the same deficit.  THEY can do damage despite there being fewer enemies.  The carrier can't.

Think of it this way... a carrier one on one with any other ship... loses (or at least, it's at a HUGE disadvantage).  The carrier simply can't do enough damage to kill any ship before it kills them (usually).

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On 5/1/2020 at 12:25 AM, Vego_Mohenjo said:

Bots do dodge, I see it all the time.  They even occasionally just stop in place for a second (usually to avoid a torpdeo).

Firing the rockets is very inaccurate.  Bombs too.  You can line up that reticle perfectly and several weapons will spray out to the sides, missing everything.  Other ships can say the same (Battleships, especially), but they can just fire again right away.  Carriers can't, they need to wait to reload the planes and fly all the way back to the target.

I've had games on occasion where I score damage like that.  They're rare.  Most games with carriers in them have the carrier as the bottom of the team list for damage (and xp and everything else).

Yes, I don't pvp, and having fewer targets might be a consideration, except that all the other ships on my team have the same deficit.  THEY can do damage despite there being fewer enemies.  The carrier can't.

Think of it this way... a carrier one on one with any other ship... loses (or at least, it's at a HUGE disadvantage).  The carrier simply can't do enough damage to kill any ship before it kills them (usually).

You are wrong.  You can't do that, but carriers are perfectly capable and have the biggest advantage one on one over every other ship.  A carrier can strike the other ship while remaining completely hidden.  The other ship has to spot the CV and fire, which exposes it's location.  I love having a DD circle around and come at me in a CV.  It means he is pretty much dead and useless to his team. 

The bots dodge ship launched torps, and maneuver to follow surface ships, they ignore planes.  I just dropped a DD bot that stopped in the cap.  He sat there and died even though he had plenty of time to dodge.  I hit another going full speed toward our bot dd.  He never waivered, but I mislead and only hit one torp.  

It's funny, you complain about CV damage, yet CV's are #2 for you in damage.  Seems they aren't so tough, after all.  

 

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Destroyers can strike targets while remaining completely undetected (many of them, anyway).  They're also impervious to attack from the carrier unless spotted by something else.  Planes can't detect them until they're literally overhead, and too close to attack.  Cruisers have the massive AA advantage, and attacking them is nearly impossible because planes will die before they can do much of anything.  The same is true of carriers.  Battleships are at something of a disadvantage in that they're easily spotted and less manueverable... but they're so durable that they take forever to kill.  Once the carrier is detected, if the BB has most of its health left... the carrier won't be able to do enough to it to kill it.  Indeed, once a carrier is detected, it's basically dead, because it has NO capacity to withstand attacks.  Its ONLY defense is being undetected.  They're not armoured, nor fast or manueverable enough to be hard to hit.

I've seen AI ships dodging my plane dropped torps.  They'll manuever to bow on as the planes approach, and if they don't have a chance, or if I reposition, they'll turn to avoid the torpedoes themselves.  Battleships often don't, because they can't.  Cruisers and destroyers, however, do it all the time.

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