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GK/KM vs Massa Complete Secondary build

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I got the Massachusetts long before I got my GK and did a full secondary build on her.  It was good, or so I thought, until I got my GK.  The GK secondary build can run circles around the Massa in terms of hits and damage with secondaries.

In many battles, I can easily top 200-300 secondary hits with the GK and have hit a high with 83k damage.  I can barely do 1/2 those amounts in my Massa.  Throwing Lutjens on the GK and it is a beast.  With the right match, I can get 500-600 secondary hits (long battles with lots of capital ships).

Looking at the secondary armament, the GK (and the FdG and Bis/Tirpitz) easily have way more secondary batteries of larger caliber compared to the Massa.

The Massa shares the same secondary armament with the NC, Iowa, and the Monty.  Why does everyone say that it should be a secondary build and what makes it so great?  What am I missing?

I know that secondary builds are not optimal, but having a few ships built like this sure breaks up the monotony and is a ton of fun.  In fact, I am thinking of turning a few French BBs into secondaries.

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Well, here's the thing about comparing secondary armament, particularly amongst all four nations that have good secondaries on their Battleships : Japan, USA, Germany, and France.

USA: Massachussets, Georgia, and Ohio

USN Secondaries have low penetration, but a high rate of fire and extremely high accuracy for what they are. Entirely comprised out of Dual Mount 127mm/38 Mk.21 Mod 0 guns

Japan: Izumo, Yamato, Shikishima

Japanese secondaries lack rate of fire and range, but boast high alpha strike, thanks to the power of the Japanese 127mm and 155mm guns. Comprised of 127mm/40 Type89 guns, 155mm/60 3rd Year type guns, or, in the case of Shikishima, Ducky Guns ( 100mm/65 Type98 ). 155mm guns are present on all three ships

Germany: Bismarck, Tirpitz, Odin, Friedrich der Grosse, Grosser Kurfurst

German secondaries have a decent rate of fire, but poor damage. However, that damage is compensated for by increased penetration capacity and fairly long firing ranges. Comprised of 105mm/61 Dop C/35 / C/38 guns, 150mm SK C/28 or C/35 guns in either dual or triple mounts, as found on Odin, and 128mm L/61 SK C/40 guns ( exclusive to Grosser Kurfurst. These guns are also found on Gneisenau, but are fairly weak by comparison, in terms of range )

France: Alsace, Republique, Bourgogne

French secondaries have low penetration, but an extremely high fire chance and the longest range of all the secondaries. However, these mounts are very squishy. These mounts are comprised of 152mm / 55 Modele 1934 guns, 127mm/54 Modele 1948 guns, or 100mm/50 Modele 1939 guns

Just my two cents

:SerB:

 

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It's not just about the number of Secondary guns or their calibers. There's more to it than that.

Massy's Secondaries are NOT like those on NC, Iowa and Monty. Massy's Secondaries actually have identical base range as the German Secondaries, plus the improved dispersion that even the German ones don't get. There was even a period when Massy used to be better Secondary brawler than the German BB's.

All that changed with the IFHE rework. Now, the Germans have (sort of) retaken the throne, as their Secondaries can easily punch through thicker armor than what Massy's Secondaries can (at least the high Tier German ones, lol). The better dispersion on Massy's Secondaries now became a bit less of a glamour, since hitting things more isn't gonna matter much if they can't penetrate much.

Of course, Massy can still always take the IFHE to buff the penetration on her Secondaries... but that's 4 skill points that German BB's would not have to spend, which ends up as an advantage for the Germans.

All that being said, Massy is still a good Secondary Brawler. There's no doubt about it. She is the quintessential USN brawler.

On a same note, Georgia has the same Secondaries as Massy.

My 2 Secondary shells.

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German 128mm secondary guns are overall the best.  They have very high HE Pen.  They'll do shell damage across more targets that USN 127mm will not penetrate against.

 

Even if Massachusetts took IFHE, she'd still only have 26mm HE Pen, which against most High Tier targets isn't high enough unless the shots scatter and hit superstructure against Cruiser and Battleship targets in High Tier.

 

German 128mm secondaries have 32mm HE Pen built in, which is excellent.  Cruisers get penned and RN & FR BB armor sections are also vulnerable to HE Pen by these secondary guns.  Throw on DE trait and you have 7% fire chance.

 

Outside the German 128s, the next best Secondary guns are Republique's 127mm guns.  They have the same HE Pen limitations as the USN 127s, but Republique's are the best fire starters in the game.  She has plenty of those guns, have a good ROF, and have a whopping 9% base fire chance.  They can also be the longest ranged secondaries in the game.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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aaahhh my REPUB getting some love :)

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Ohio on paper would have outstanding secondaries.  Decent range.  As usual the same 127mm penetration limitations.  But Ohio's 127s are really good fire starters at 9%, just like Republique, and a lot better than Massachusetts and Georgia.  However, unlike Republique, she has the accurate Massachusetts / Georgia style secondaries.

 

Notice I said, "on paper."  I don't consider Ohio's among the best.  Why?  Because of the slow, 28kt hull these fantastic secondaries are mounted on.  It take a long time for Ohio to get anywhere, and by the time she gets there, the Shimakazes, the Georgias, the GKs, the Benhams, etc. have beaten up most things.  You can still make it work, but you need to hit Full Speed and head right to the caps.  If you dawdle about and hesitate, everyone is going to kill everything before your secondaries can really do their work.

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Thanks for all of the replies.

So from what I gather,  even though 2 ships may have the same secondaries, they may have different results in battle.

I do not have IFHE on my Massa anymore.  Took it off with the IFHE rework.

Just got the Repub yesterday, but I played a lot of Alsace this weekend grinding out the Repub.  She did very well with her secondaries.  One of the more enjoyable ships in the French BB lines.

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Even if Massachusetts took IFHE, she'd still only have 26mm HE Pen, which against most High Tier targets isn't high enough unless the shots scatter and hit superstructure against Cruiser and Battleship targets in High Tier.

 

Doesn't the German 105mm Secondaries at Tier VIII+ also have the special 1/4 pen too? I can't remember for sure, but I think those also have 26mm penetration by default, without IFHE.

If so, then it shows that Massy's Secondaries require IFHE to pen same thickness of armor as the aforementioned German ones without IFHE... and thus how Massy has kind of fallen from the grace? LOL. :Smile_teethhappy:

She's still a good brawler, I think... though I'll take German brawlers any day over her, lel. :Smile_hiding:

Edited by Blorgh2017
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2 hours ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Of course, Massy can still always take the IFHE to buff the penetration on her Secondaries... but that's 4 skill points that German BB's would not have to spend, which ends up as an advantage for the Germans.

IFHE do not give mass any higher thresholds (she can pierce the bow armor of CL, that’s it) while Bismark and FDG can pierce the 32mm threshold. 

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Günther Lütjens on a secondary spec'd GK can produce some ridiculous numbers. 

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1 hour ago, Y_Nagato said:

IFHE do not give mass any higher thresholds (she can pierce the bow armor of CL, that’s it) while Bismark and FDG can pierce the 32mm threshold. 

IFHE allows 127mm guns to pen 26mm, which includes high tier CL and (non-USN/KM) CA plating (25mm) and mid-tier BB plating (26mm).

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4 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

IFHE allows 127mm guns to pen 26mm, which includes high tier CL and (non-USN/KM) CA plating (25mm) and mid-tier BB plating (26mm).

Which hardly justifies the drop in fire chances. 

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1 hour ago, Y_Nagato said:

IFHE do not give mass any higher thresholds (she can pierce the bow armor of CL, that’s it) while Bismark and FDG can pierce the 32mm threshold. 

Yes, I know. But that wasn't what I was trying to say.

Massy needs IFHE to have same level of penetration as the German 105mm Secondaries at Tier VIII+ without IFHE. And those German Secondaries can take IFHE to pen 32mm armor, which is never achievable for Massy. I just find it to be an advantage for the Germans. That's all.

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1 hour ago, Nevermore135 said:

IFHE allows 127mm guns to pen 26mm, which includes high tier CL and (non-USN/KM) CA plating (25mm) and mid-tier BB plating (26mm).

Those High Tier Cruiser armor values are irrelevant because those aren't sections of a ship that Secondary gunfire typically hit.

Tier VIII Mogami has a 25mm bow, but shells will typically land on her mid section or superstructure.  She has a 27mm deck and upper armor belt.  Even a part of Mogami's "superstructure" area at the base has a 30mm armor belt.

Tier VIII Cleveland has a 25mm mid section / hull plating but shells can land on her 27mm deck.

Tier VIII Baltimore has a 27mm mid section / hull plating to go with her 27mm deck.

 

If the AI gunner could specifically aim for thinner bow / stern armor, then there'd be a lot less concern with HE Penetration for Secondary shells.  But that's not how it goes, the AI specifically aims for mid-section, waterline level of a target, where armor gets considerably thicker than the extremities.

2 hours ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Doesn't the German 105mm Secondaries at Tier VIII+ also have the special 1/4 pen too? I can't remember for sure, but I think those also have 26mm penetration by default, without IFHE.

If so, then it shows that Massy's Secondaries require IFHE to pen same thickness of armor as the aforementioned German ones without IFHE... and thus how Massy has kind of fallen from the grace? LOL. :Smile_teethhappy:

She's still a good brawler, I think... though I'll take German brawlers any day over her, lel. :Smile_hiding:

Yes, the German 105 secondaries got the HE Pen Buff.  IFHE will take it to 32mm HE Pen.

 

My GK still has IFHE, so her 128mm secondaries have 40mm HE Pen, which will literally carve open even High Tier US BBs and their 38mm deck armor.

 

I was hoping WG wouldn't r*** Agir's secondaries, because she had GK's 128mm secondaries on them.  They would have been extremely good in PVE.  Not anymore, those secondaries got gutted.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 hour ago, Y_Nagato said:

Which hardly justifies the drop in fire chances. 

Never said it did.

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Those High Tier Cruiser armor values are irrelevant because those aren't sections of a ship that Secondary gunfire typically hit.

Tier VIII Mogami has a 25mm bow, but shells will typically land on her mid section or superstructure.  She has a 27mm deck and upper armor belt.  Even a part of Mogami's "superstructure" area at the base has a 30mm armor belt.

Tier VIII Cleveland has a 25mm mid section / hull plating but shells can land on her 27mm deck.

Tier VIII Baltimore has a 27mm mid section / hull plating to go with her 27mm deck.

 

If the AI gunner could specifically aim for thinner bow / stern armor, then there'd be a lot less concern with HE Penetration for Secondary shells.  But that's not how it goes, the AI specifically aims for mid-section, waterline level of a target, where armor gets considerably thicker than the extremities.

Just because that is where the AI gunners aim, does not mean that is where the shells land. I commonly observe shell hits onto the bow and stern deck at long ranges, and particularly if targets are angled away from me hits on the stern are quite common. Furthermore, here is the armor profile of Cleveland. All that yellow area is 25mm plating. Are you telling me that none of shells fired from your secondaries hit those surfaces, especially when a target is maneuvering? Then again, I don't run manual secondaries on my Mass captain (he also helms my Flint), so maybe that's the reason.

Of course, I am in no way advocating for IFHE on Mass with the current version of the skill - the increased loss in fire chance and being unable to pen 27mm don't make it worth it anymore for a dedicated captain.

shot-20_04.27_21_44.48-0812.thumb.jpg.84e775825f6ae55246b4a9171fa26cf6.jpg

Edited by Nevermore135

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I already told you where the shells generally hit.

 

And I'll repeat this again, the center is where the shells generally fall.  Most especially since the shells arc up and down, and where do they love to land?  The deck / superstructure area.

 

And when you get to close range where the shells are flying more level now, where the AI actually hits what it's aiming for, which I repeat is center mass, waterline... Your secondaries won't do much.

1.  They'll hit thick armor belts. 

Or

2.  They hit the TDS for nothing.  For the same reason people complain about doing 0 damage when they hit someone's TDS with their main battery AP shell, a little secondary shell isn't doing anything.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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I've been a secondary build 'afficionaldo' for some time.  I use one 19 point captain on Monty, Massy, Georgia, and Puerto Rico.  If you look, there are two American autoload 127 MM turret models primarily to consider, 127/38 Mk.32 and 127/54 Mk.41. I noticed that the secondary specs on Puerto Rico AND Des Moines are identical to Montana's - and I've had good success in co-op with Montana using secondaries - therefore I redid Puerto Rico and use my Monty skipper there.  9.1 km range on Monty and Puerto Rico.  You can also get Des Moines to 9.1 range.  All of them require the secondary upgrade, AFT, and a secondary flag to get there.

The advantage in co-op IMHO is you can focus more on sinking the cruisers and BBs and not worry so much about a torp-rushing DD, because those secondaries are brutal for a DD.  I get a DD secondary kill almost every battle in which there are multiple DDs, and the bot DDs always rush.  It works even better on the Cruisers (even Des Moines) because you get to the action a bit quicker and can maneuver to have a better position sooner.  Massa is by far not my favorite secondary ship anymore, it's Georgia, Puerto Rico, Monty, then Massa in that order.  YMMV.  I don't do manual control - because of what HazeGray says above.  The greater dispersion helps to hit superstructure, bow, and stern.  Again - the big target here is DDs, and many cruisers are vulnerable, as well.  The incidental damage done to BBs doesn't hurt your cause any, but that's not the raison d'etre.  I'm working my Des Moines skipper up to 19 points so I can make best use of this system on Des Moines.  Although arbitrarily with a bit less range, it even would work on Alaska and Alaska B (I have both).  I don't know why Mk. 32s are longer on Iowa than on the Alaskas, but that's the way WG has crumbled the cookie.  BTW, I will eventually get Iowa's skipper up to 19 points as well.  Iowa is currently a port queen, not high on the priority list, I have Georgia at Tier 9.

Of course, I use my 19 point German Captain from GK on my Scharny and Tirp.  I'm going to look into the Gunther Lutjens suggestion above once the game is updated and running - don't know what his advantage entails.  I use the same French Captain on JB and GasCan, with good results (GasCan is OK in a Co-op brawl too - with a full secondary build). 

My Yammy has full secondary build and an 18-point Captain (the next to 19 points).  Similar results there.

I wouldn't do some of these if I played more Randoms than I do, but I don't like Random.  The meta, the matchmaking, and the attitudes there are not to my liking and this is entertainment for me - and if it's not fun, why do it?

Enjoyed reading this thread and writing this while I wait for the game to go live, thanks, all.  /0

 

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