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Billy_The_Dog

Russian bias doesn't exist: Change My Mind!

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Before you all crucify me, let me explain. The concept of Russian Bias is an issue that has arisen fairly recent, but I believe that is is intrinsically linked with the influx of bad/casual players and the decline of game play. How many times do we get annoyed at team mates in BBs who refuse to push up, CAs, CLs who don't want to focus on Killing DDs and DDs who refuse to smoke up team mates, spot targets or play objectives. Russian Bias exists because the bulk of the player base on NA and EU servers are playing the game wrong! On RU server I have seen many games where the majority of players in a game, basically just sail to the middle and have a massive brawl. It's fun, but more importantly it actually balances most ships out. We all know that WG does most of its balancing based on RU server stats, so instead of moaning, why don't we just change the way we play? Take Smolensk, Stalingrad, Kremlin, etc... these 'OP Russian Ships' are not actually OP, just annoying and hard for 'potatoes' to displace. But the way you do it? You push them. Using teamwork you push Smolensk out of it's smoke, and you push round the sides of Stalingrad, Kremlin, Moskva, etc... Even the 'so-called' weak ships, USN and KMS are far more useful in this role. KMS BBs are perfect for pushing up with great secondaries and trollish 'turtle-back' armour. Even the Cruisers and DDs with their high alpha strike guns, and amazing hydro. USN BBs? Designed for pushing around flanks. The issue is not that Russian ships are 'OP', but that Russian ships are VERY good at picking on weak players and bad play. Unfortunately WOWS is NOT a game that can successfully accommodate the current stock of casual players. If players were less selfish/entitled and more team oriented, and we started working together and playing objectives, pushing, etc... Basically playing more like the Russians do, I suspect you would see far more ship lines coming into their own.

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18 minutes ago, Billy_The_Dog said:

On RU server I have seen many games where the majority of players in a game, basically just sail to the middle and have a massive brawl. It's fun

I always thought that this is exactly the dumbest thing to do. You don't have to sit back for sure but if your goal is to win the best strategy is to bait players on red team to do mistakes and to punish them for that. Middle brawl == 50% WR for everyone and it's BORING.

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I think you're right on the brawling style. Every ship line WG has released recently has been ideal for a fast paced brawling style. CV spotting isn't an issue if everyone is just charging toward one another. EU DDs don't have smoke, Italian cruisers have moving smoke, French DDs, no smoke. RN DDs, short smoke. RU BBs, brawlers. RU cruisers, tanky and very brawlable. Several of the devs have mentioned disliking CE on BBs. WG clearly wants the game to be less strategy, more YOLO. 

The issue there is NA and EU players don't want to play like that. There is a lot of potential strategy in WOWS, and it adds a HUGE amount of depth. Turn it into a brawl, and it's nothing special. There are way more games out there that do fast place fighting way better (start with WOT). What attracts the long time dedicated players is the strategy possibilities. Positioning, counterplay, caps, strengths and weaknesses of ships. And the game is really designed to work like. But WG doesn't like that for whatever reason. They don't realize that most players reaction to seeing a massive force against them is not to just charge in, but rather to sit back, let things develop, and then work circumstances to their advantage. WG is I think fundamentally misunderstanding the game that the NA and EU servers play. Because I don't think brawling is ever going to develop when ships exist that can delete you from 15km. And I don't think it should either. Yeah it might be fun at first if you just charged one another guns blazing. But when every battle goes the same way, it's going to get boring. The thing that keeps you interested in WOWS is the massive variety. Different ships, all with little quirks and advantages, different maps, different strategies, always something different. Reduce that down to a close in brawling style, what is there to keep players interested? And also, if WG is forcing the other servers to play like the RU server, isn't that already Russian bias?

Now that said, it doesn't mean RU ships lately aren't OP. Arguing that everyone is the same at close range isn't a valid argument for making them OP at long range. And let's address that real fast, the RU ships actually do best at long range. RU CLs and Moskva, long range HE spam. RU DDs, long range kiting gunboats (remember the Khaba in its prime?). RU BBs, the poor long range dispersion is a joke, they have better dispersion at all ranges save the IJN and maybe the USN. New RU CAs, long range AP monsters. Slava actually better at long range. Smolensk, designed to sit back and spam. Kutuzov, same thing. Yeah, some of them can work at close range, but they all work very well at long range.

And let's be honest, Russian ships lately have just been flat out better than other lines. Sinop makes CO completely obsolete. Kremlin really makes Montana look for a unique role, Smolensk is the single most hated ship in the game, the new RU CAs are just flat out broken with their AP and bow tanking. Just because WG wants us to brawl where ship differences don't matter doesn't mean the RU ships still aren't OP.

So yes, you're right WG has a completely different playstyle in mind. But that doesn't change the fact that there's absolutely Russian bias right now.

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30 minutes ago, Billy_The_Dog said:

Before you all crucify me, let me explain. The concept of Russian Bias is an issue that has arisen fairly recent, but I believe that is is intrinsically linked with the influx of bad/casual players and the decline of game play.

How many times do we get annoyed at team mates in BBs who refuse to push up, CAs, CLs who don't want to focus on Killing DDs and DDs who refuse to smoke up team mates, spot targets or play objectives. Russian Bias exists because the bulk of the player base on NA and EU servers are playing the game wrong! On RU server I have seen many games where the majority of players in a game, basically just sail to the middle and have a massive brawl. It's fun, but more importantly it actually balances most ships out. We all know that WG does most of its balancing based on RU server stats, so instead of moaning, why don't we just change the way we play?

Take Smolensk, Stalingrad, Kremlin, etc... these 'OP Russian Ships' are not actually OP, just annoying and hard for 'potatoes' to displace. But the way you do it? You push them. Using teamwork you push Smolensk out of it's smoke, and you push round the sides of Stalingrad, Kremlin, Moskva, etc... Even the 'so-called' weak ships, USN and KMS are far more useful in this role. KMS BBs are perfect for pushing up with great secondaries and trollish 'turtle-back' armour. Even the Cruisers and DDs with their high alpha strike guns, and amazing hydro.

USN BBs? Designed for pushing around flanks. The issue is not that Russian ships are 'OP', but that Russian ships are VERY good at picking on weak players and bad play. Unfortunately WOWS is NOT a game that can successfully accommodate the current stock of casual players. If players were less selfish/entitled and more team oriented, and we started working together and playing objectives, pushing, etc...

Basically playing more like the Russians do, I suspect you would see far more ship lines coming into their own.

Make that wall of "no frigging way am I going to read that" readable. 

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5 minutes ago, dimzzy said:

I always thought that this is exactly the dumbest thing to do. You don't have to sit back for sure but if your goal is to win the best strategy is to bait players on red team to do mistakes and to punish them for that. Middle brawl == 50% WR for everyone and it's BORING.

I would agree... to a point. Brawling in the middle can be fun. That is what makes the German BBs fun to play. But as you said, you don't have to sit back. Problem is, most people do. And the Russian ships are VERY good at punishing people on the red team who make mistakes.

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I've never seen anything to support the idea of "Russian Bias". 

Whole lines of Russian ships are boring plodders (BBs) or combine crap armor with crap agility (Cruisers), with a handful of fun premiums (KK, Smolly), and a decent DD line.  

 

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30 minutes ago, Billy_The_Dog said:

Basically playing more like the Russians do, I suspect you would see far more ship lines coming into their own.

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5 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

I think you're right on the brawling style. Every ship line WG has released recently has been ideal for a fast paced brawling style. CV spotting isn't an issue if everyone is just charging toward one another. EU DDs don't have smoke, Italian cruisers have moving smoke, French DDs, no smoke. RN DDs, short smoke. RU BBs, brawlers. RU cruisers, tanky and very brawlable. Several of the devs have mentioned disliking CE on BBs. WG clearly wants the game to be less strategy, more YOLO. 

The issue there is NA and EU players don't want to play like that. There is a lot of potential strategy in WOWS, and it adds a HUGE amount of depth. Turn it into a brawl, and it's nothing special. There are way more games out there that do fast place fighting way better (start with WOT). What attracts the long time dedicated players is the strategy possibilities. Positioning, counterplay, caps, strengths and weaknesses of ships. And the game is really designed to work like. But WG doesn't like that for whatever reason. They don't realize that most players reaction to seeing a massive force against them is not to just charge in, but rather to sit back, let things develop, and then work circumstances to their advantage. WG is I think fundamentally misunderstanding the game that the NA and EU servers play. Because I don't think brawling is ever going to develop when ships exist that can delete you from 15km. And I don't think it should either. Yeah it might be fun at first if you just charged one another guns blazing. But when every battle goes the same way, it's going to get boring. The thing that keeps you interested in WOWS is the massive variety. Different ships, all with little quirks and advantages, different maps, different strategies, always something different. Reduce that down to a close in brawling style, what is there to keep players interested? And also, if WG is forcing the other servers to play like the RU server, isn't that already Russian bias?

Now that said, it doesn't mean RU ships lately aren't OP. Arguing that everyone is the same at close range isn't a valid argument for making them OP at long range. And let's address that real fast, the RU ships actually do best at long range. RU CLs and Moskva, long range HE spam. RU DDs, long range kiting gunboats (remember the Khaba in its prime?). RU BBs, the poor long range dispersion is a joke, they have better dispersion at all ranges save the IJN and maybe the USN. New RU CAs, long range AP monsters. Slava actually better at long range. Smolensk, designed to sit back and spam. Kutuzov, same thing. Yeah, some of them can work at close range, but they all work very well at long range.

And let's be honest, Russian ships lately have just been flat out better than other lines. Sinop makes CO completely obsolete. Kremlin really makes Montana look for a unique role, Smolensk is the single most hated ship in the game, the new RU CAs are just flat out broken with their AP and bow tanking. Just because WG wants us to brawl where ship differences don't matter doesn't mean the RU ships still aren't OP.

So yes, you're right WG has a completely different playstyle in mind. But that doesn't change the fact that there's absolutely Russian bias right now.

Thank you for actually reading it, and  responding accordingly, I suspect most people will read the title and lose their crap!

Your first too points are very valid, and I agree there is a lot of strategy in WOWS, but I feel that WG is being forced to dumb the game down too much to accommodate the new 'casual' players. The game got especially bad with the decline of WOT and now with the influx due to Corona virus. A lot of the players do not understand the difference between a close to mid range brawl, and a suicide YOLO charge.

I don't think that Russian ships are OP. They are just good at taking advantage of poor play. I know that Russian ships do better at long range, so why don't people close the range? (Also Slava is gone for good).

As for new Russian ships? Yes Sinop is good, but lets face it CO was pretty crap to begin with. Until WG moves away from 21knt speed, they always will be crap. Montana unique role is to push flanks. It always has been, it's not good at sitting at the back. Get round the sides, use it's great guns to punish those bow tanking Kremlins. Smolensk is only hated because most people don't know how to deal with it, and it's annoying. Remember they had to balance the armour, because it was WAY too easy to one shot in its smoke.

Yes WG wants us to brawl. Whilst an argument could be made for OP Russian ships in the current 'meta', instead of complaining, why don't we just change the 'meta'? BBs shouldn't be sniping each other from max range anyway!

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I think it is that Russian Bias doesn't exist per se, but the PERCEPTION of Russian Bias exists on NA and EU servers, and is intrinsically linked to the degradation in player quality and game play.

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Russian bias exists only if you choose to ignore all counter examples.  It's a self fulfilling prophecy...the Soviets get an OP premium "Russian bias", the British get an OP premium "It was just flawed balancing".  

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25 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

The issue there is NA and EU players don't want to play like that. There is a lot of potential strategy in WOWS, and it adds a HUGE amount of depth. Turn it into a brawl, and it's nothing special. There are way more games out there that do fast place fighting way better (start with WOT). What attracts the long time dedicated players is the strategy possibilities. Positioning, counterplay, caps, strengths and weaknesses of ships. And the game is really designed to work like.

I think you give the majority of players on EU and NA far too much credit. As you pointed out the 'long time dedicated players' and on that I would agree wholeheartedly. However it's not these players that are the issue. Most of these players, would know how to take out a Smolensk in a smoke screen or how to burn down a Stalingrad or flank a Kremlin. It's the new breed of casual players who are not interested in teamwork, or winning and just want to sail round and watch stuff go 'boom'. Just they get upset when it's them that goes 'boom'. And Russian ships are VERY good at making noobs go 'boom'. I get so annoyed when I see a bad player making a dumb move and then you ask them what they are doing and their response is "Don't tell me how to play, it's my game! I'll play it how I want". At what point does 'having fun' become trolling at the expense of everyone else on your team? And Russian bias seems to be a useful scapegoat for poor play.

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4 minutes ago, yashma said:

Russian bias exists only if you choose to ignore all counter examples.  It's a self fulfilling prophecy...the Soviets get an OP premium "Russian bias", the British get an OP premium "It was just flawed balancing".  

Interesting point. Maybe Russian Bias does exist, it's just everyone being being bias AGAINST Russia?

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There is some russian bias, though is greatly exaggerated. But there is a lot more of anti russian bias. 

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Let me sum it up the best I can.

Russian ships are for the most part all PAPER and based on performance of the ones made would have been horrible. Combine with the resources available they would have been floating tender-boxes with bad armor. With the simple truth out their compared to Wargamings fiction the Truth is simple. RU anything was BAD they made up for the bad with sheer numbers..... BIAS IS FACT it shines across all the games they have and to think otherwise is naive.

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14 minutes ago, Billy_The_Dog said:

Interesting point. Maybe Russian Bias does exist, it's just everyone being being bias AGAINST Russia?

Maybe for some people....but I'm not sure I'd go that far.  It's more of the fact that Russian bias is a self fulfilling prophecy because it would be far fetched to claim the devs are biased in any other nation's favor.  Thus every time a Russian ship is advantaged some people will connect that to favoritism from the devs....but if another nation's ship is advantaged in some way, there is no logical connection to developer favoritism without coming off as a tin foil hat nutter.  Once the idea of Russian bias gains prominence people start looking for more examples in order to confirm their preexisting biases....when all counter examples are ignored or downplayed.  

If every strong Soviet ship is evidence of Russian bias....while strong ships from other nations are not labeled as counter points or examples of favoritism towards those nations...of course Russian bias is going to start looking more convincing over time because it's functionally running a race unopposed.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Mustangrde1 said:

Let me sum it up the best I can.

Russian ships are for the most part all PAPER and based on performance of the ones made would have been horrible. Combine with the resources available they would have been floating tender-boxes with bad armor. With the simple truth out their compared to Wargamings fiction the Truth is simple. RU anything was BAD they made up for the bad with sheer numbers..... BIAS IS FACT it shines across all the games they have and to think otherwise is naive.

And you are saying that EVERYTHING else in this game is ENTIRELY prototypical to historical data? WG has a large Russian audience and will include Russian navy in the game. And according to your statement, they should nerf all Russian ships into the ground, but every Russian ships gets 5 respawns each game to make up the numbers? Also the top tier ships of MOST other nations are paper and made up too. Montana, FDG, GK, Neptune, Mino, Z46/52, Kleber, Zao, Haragumo, etc... 

 

12 minutes ago, Xlap said:

There is some russian bias, though is greatly exaggerated. But there is a lot more of anti russian bias. 

I agree 100%

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kremlin on release was very very strong but it has been chopped now, smolensk is still busted, stalin/moskva get dev struck by a strong gust of wind coming across their broadsides its not russian bias just inexperienced players struggling to grasp the concept that certain ships require certain tactics.

you should be arguing more for french bias or clearly USN bias. Name 1 weak tier 10 french ship, they are all monsters its just that everyone has got this hatred towards the russians because they just dont know how to play against them.

the complaints like "sTalInGrAD is Op" is just showing you havent played enough of the ship or against it, stalin and moskva get bent over by h.e spam, cv (what doesnt get bent over by cv though) and anything firing ap at its side.

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1 minute ago, yashma said:

Maybe for some people....but I'm not sure I'd go that far.  It's more of the fact that Russian bias is a self fulfilling prophecy because it would be far fetched to claim the devs are biased in any other nation's favor.  Thus every time a Russian ship is advantaged some people will connect that to favoritism from the devs....but if another nation's ship is advantaged in some way, there is no logical connection to developer favoritism without coming off as a tin foil hat nutter.  Once the idea of Russian bias gains prominence people start looking for more examples in order to confirm their preexisting biases....when all counter examples are ignored or downplayed.  

If every strong Soviet ship is evidence of Russian bias....while strong ships from other nations are not labeled as counter points or examples of favoritism towards those nations...of course Russian bias is going to start looking more convincing over time.  

 

So it's a case of confirmation bias... Interesting...

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Just now, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

kremlin on release was very very strong but it has been chopped now, smolensk is still busted, stalin/moskva get dev struck by a strong gust of wind coming across their broadsides its not russian bias just inexperienced players struggling to grasp the concept that certain ships require certain tactics.

you should be arguing more for french bias or clearly USN bias. Name 1 weak tier 10 french ship, they are all monsters its just that everyone has got this hatred towards the russians because they just dont know how to play against them.

the complaints like "sTalInGrAD is Op" is just showing you havent played enough of the ship or against it, stalin and moskva get bent over by h.e spam, cv (what doesnt get bent over by cv though) and anything firing ap at its side.

I hope this is the 'royal' you, you are using... I am arguing AGAINST Russian Bias here... I totally agree with what you are saying. It's a confirmation bias compounded by poor play. Even Smolensk can be gotten rid of, just by either rushing it with numbers, or by good cruiser AP rounds. Anyone half decent at blind firing into smoke can get rid of Smolensk. It's not OP, more just kinda annoying. But same could be said for Haragumo or Freisland as well?

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4 minutes ago, yashma said:

Maybe for some people....but I'm not sure I'd go that far.  It's more of the fact that Russian bias is a self fulfilling prophecy because it would be far fetched to claim the devs are biased in any other nation's favor.  Thus every time a Russian ship is advantaged some people will connect that to favoritism from the devs....but if another nation's ship is advantaged in some way, there is no logical connection to developer favoritism without coming off as a tin foil hat nutter.  Once the idea of Russian bias gains prominence people start looking for more examples in order to confirm their preexisting biases....when all counter examples are ignored or downplayed.  

If every strong Soviet ship is evidence of Russian bias....while strong ships from other nations are not labeled as counter points or examples of favoritism towards those nations...of course Russian bias is going to start looking more convincing over time because it's functionally running a race unopposed.  

 

It's possible WG can be biased for NA/EU ships due to the large number of whales while also being biased for RU ships because of nationalism.  Maybe it's just me but a lot of the high tier premiums that have come out lately look like whale bait to me.

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1 minute ago, Rouxi said:

It's possible WG can be biased for NA/EU ships due to the large number of whales while also being biased for RU ships because of nationalism.  Maybe it's just me but a lot of the high tier premiums that have come out lately look like whale bait to me.

And the casual players should be happy. It is these whales who fund the game and keep it free for everyone else. I tend only to spend on this game, other than premium, around Christmas time.

I think also there is a degree of entitlement that some players think they should be able to get EVERY premium in the game. WG is going to cater different ships to ALL players. As much as I want Smalland, I do think 2mil Free Exp is a bit steep, but there are plenty of people who have tonnes of Free Exp. Personally I have almost 500 million credits on my account. Special ships for Credits WG?

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People look at Russian bias as ships stats and competitive features, and that’s all fine and well, but the most significant demonstration of Russian bias is the tech tree itself.  The Russian navy doesn’t rate a DD twig much less a BB, dual cruiser, dual DD branched tree.  

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1 hour ago, Billy_The_Dog said:

Take Smolensk..... these 'OP Russian Ships

How in the world does anyone on this server think that Smolensk is OP??? Smolensk is hot trash, The server win rate is higher in Zao and Hindenburg for pete's sake. A team with a Smolensk is statistically more likely to lose.

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