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Yandere_Roon

RN Battlecruiser line

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Ok mirroring my post on the EU forums. Since Battlecruisers can be classified as either BB or Supercruiser. Here is a little thought experiment for you and a proposed line with the options of the very first tech tree supercuiser line OR the more reasonable which would be an Accuracy AP focused Fast Battleship line.

First the Supercruiser line (keep in mind this is properly out there and VERY unlikely to happen):

Tier 3: Invincible Class. Stripped down HMS Dreadnought, loses armor and a gun turret, speed 25 knots. 8 x 305mm guns.

Tier 4: Indefatigable Class: An upgrade to the Invincible class, not a huge step up but roughly the same ideas with better firing arcs.

Tier 5: Lion Class (will probably have to use one of the sister ships since we already have a Lion class ingame, so Princess Royal): 8 x 343mm guns, speed 32 knots.

Tier 6: Tiger Class: Keeps the 32 knots and 8 x 343mm guns but this is where you transition into the (Super)Cruiser line.

Tier 7: Courageous class: still 32 knots but upgrades to 4 x 381mm guns, she'd be a terrible BB at tier 6 or 7 but as a Super cruiser the enhanced accuracy but lower guns isn't a terrible problem.

Tier 8 : Renown class: This one is the biggie, what ever RN fanboy (myself included) wants. 36 knots of speed, 6 x 381mm guns.

Tier 9 : Admiral class: We already have one of these ingame as HMS Hood, naturally higher tier due to it being a cruiser with better cruiser accuracy but still retaining the tier 7 armor scheme.

Tier 10: G3 Battlecruiser: Paper cruiser, planned but never built. If introduced into the game as a cruiser (and not as a Battleship) it would have the largest guns to be mounted on one at 9 x 406mm and capable of 31 knots, putting her closer to a Battleship than a Cruiser and as such may be pushing the idea of Supercruiser to its very limits even if the armor scheme was closer to Cruiser than Battleship. 

Now as suggested by 1MajorKoenig, the Fast BB line with a focus on good AP and accurate guns over HE spam of the regular BB.

T3 Indefatigable 

T4 Lion/Queen Mary

T5 Tiger

T6 Renown

T7 Admiral.

T8 G3 Design

T9 paper 

T10 paper

For the tier 9 and 10 Paper ships my own personal suggestion would be to mirror the current 457mm US ships with the tier 9 being the Lion with 3x2 457mm turrets and the tier 10 being a tweaked version of the Thunderer (call her the Thunderchild for giggles) and the Courageous being moved down a tier to tier 6 as the RN answer to the Graf Spee, aka a mid tier supercruiser.

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Renown at tier 8 will be a real struggle. 6 guns with poor armor? Not really. At best renown can be a tier 7, and a modernise Admiral class could push it to tier 8. Bur I feel Renown spot is more at tier 6 and the modernises Admiral at 7 with Hood.

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53 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Renown at tier 8 will be a real struggle. 6 guns with poor armor? Not really. At best renown can be a tier 7, and a modernise Admiral class could push it to tier 8. Bur I feel Renown spot is more at tier 6 and the modernises Admiral at 7 with Hood.

Note the tier 8 version is the Renown as a Cruiser, not as a Battleship. At tier 8 with 6x381mm guns and cruiser accuracy she would be mighty powerful. HOWEVER if you'll noticed there is a second option which is the line as fast battleships where the Renown is tier 6.

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41 minutes ago, Yandere_Roon said:

Note the tier 8 version is the Renown as a Cruiser, not as a Battleship. At tier 8 with 6x381mm guns and cruiser accuracy she would be mighty powerful. HOWEVER if you'll noticed there is a second option which is the line as fast battleships where the Renown is tier 6.

You can’t place a ship with 15” guns as a cruisers at tier 8, nor have a ship that is basically an Iowa as a cruiser at tier 9.

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Just now, Y_Nagato said:

You can’t place a ship with 15” guns as a cruisers at tier 8, nor have a ship that is basically an Iowa as a cruiser at tier 9.

I take it you didn't read the preamble about the 'supercruiser' part of it being HIGHLY unlikely and the more reasonable version being the Fast BB line which was below it.

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I wouldn't say the 'supercruiser' type line absolutely wouldn't work, though I really don't like the way WG implements supercruisers as it stands. Some of the supercruisers are already a big MM advantage being quasi-battleships over the cruisers in their tier.

For the supercruisers:

  • There's not much difference between Invincible and Indefatigable, feels like the whole line is butter spread over too much bread
  • I don't think the Courageous will work at T7, it's really awkward. Compare it to the Spee and it's a lot of shortcomings, it's a worst of all worlds with firepower concentration, terrible armor, huge citadel and it doesn't really logically sit between Tiger and Renown being a huge dip in firepower and armor
  • Hood at T9 is just not very supercruiser-y. She's really justifiably at battleship levels of protection, while even the best protected supercruiser (PR) is significantly inferior, and the majority have about 2/3 the belt armor
  • G3 is Hood only moreso - 356mm angled belt armor by the magazines
  • These ships are a bit unbalanced, being generally lowish threat to battleships due to lower barrel count/lesser AP pen but huge cruiser threats with battlecruiser dispersion and overmatch at tiers where it's relevant - Siegfried seemed to go into dev hell, though I think introducing a 15in armed cruiser at the same time as reshuffling plating was a bad idea
  • Big AA refits would definitely be needed, beyond the Orion level 'add Pom-Poms and 4in's' Tiger would need a full on Renown style refit to not just be a sad bit of food for T8 carriers for instance

 

Overall I think the battleship type line works better, my own version matched the low tiers fairly well but deviated higher:

 

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9 minutes ago, mofton said:

I wouldn't say the 'supercruiser' type line absolutely wouldn't work, though I really don't like the way WG implements supercruisers as it stands. Some of the supercruisers are already a big MM advantage being quasi-battleships over the cruisers in their tier.

For the supercruisers:

  • There's not much difference between Invincible and Indefatigable, feels like the whole line is butter spread over too much bread
  • I don't think the Courageous will work at T7, it's really awkward. Compare it to the Spee and it's a lot of shortcomings, it's a worst of all worlds with firepower concentration, terrible armor, huge citadel and it doesn't really logically sit between Tiger and Renown being a huge dip in firepower and armor
  • Hood at T9 is just not very supercruiser-y. She's really justifiably at battleship levels of protection, while even the best protected supercruiser (PR) is significantly inferior, and the majority have about 2/3 the belt armor
  • G3 is Hood only moreso - 356mm angled belt armor by the magazines
  • These ships are a bit unbalanced, being generally lowish threat to battleships due to lower barrel count/lesser AP pen but huge cruiser threats with battlecruiser dispersion and overmatch at tiers where it's relevant - Siegfried seemed to go into dev hell, though I think introducing a 15in armed cruiser at the same time as reshuffling plating was a bad idea
  • Big AA refits would definitely be needed, beyond the Orion level 'add Pom-Poms and 4in's' Tiger would need a full on Renown style refit to not just be a sad bit of food for T8 carriers for instance

 

Overall I think the battleship type line works better, my own version matched the low tiers fairly well but deviated higher:

 

That's fair. As someone on the EU server pointed out, once you get past tier 7 most of the time Battleships (unless they're big chonkers like Yamato or Currywurst) generally have the speed of Battlecruisers anyway so unlike your suggestion of making the tier 8-10 have reduced bow and stern with reduced deckplating (and considering we have a HUGE abundance of ships that can overmatch these days, not just the Yamato/Musashi but the Kremlin, Currywurst, Thunderer, Georgia ) I'd say let them keep the speed and have standard tier bow/deck plating (lets say 32mm bow/stern and deck plating, makes them vulnerable to HE and Yamato overmatch but not 457mm overmatch). Though I didn't know the K-3 existed and as such I could see that as being the tier 10 with good sigma but regular BB dispersion since she has 9 457mm guns which sets her apart from the Thunderer in having 1 more gun but slightly less accuracy.

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5 hours ago, Yandere_Roon said:

Ok mirroring my post on the EU forums. Since Battlecruisers can be classified as either BB or Supercruiser. Here is a little thought experiment for you and a proposed line with the options of the very first tech tree supercuiser line OR the more reasonable which would be an Accuracy AP focused Fast Battleship line.

First the Supercruiser line (keep in mind this is properly out there and VERY unlikely to happen):

Tier 3: Invincible Class. Stripped down HMS Dreadnought, loses armor and a gun turret, speed 25 knots. 8 x 305mm guns.

Tier 4: Indefatigable Class: An upgrade to the Invincible class, not a huge step up but roughly the same ideas with better firing arcs.

Tier 5: Lion Class (will probably have to use one of the sister ships since we already have a Lion class ingame, so Princess Royal): 8 x 343mm guns, speed 32 knots.

Tier 6: Tiger Class: Keeps the 32 knots and 8 x 343mm guns but this is where you transition into the (Super)Cruiser line.

Tier 7: Courageous class: still 32 knots but upgrades to 4 x 381mm guns, she'd be a terrible BB at tier 6 or 7 but as a Super cruiser the enhanced accuracy but lower guns isn't a terrible problem.

Tier 8 : Renown class: This one is the biggie, what ever RN fanboy (myself included) wants. 36 knots of speed, 6 x 381mm guns.

Tier 9 : Admiral class: We already have one of these ingame as HMS Hood, naturally higher tier due to it being a cruiser with better cruiser accuracy but still retaining the tier 7 armor scheme.

Tier 10: G3 Battlecruiser: Paper cruiser, planned but never built. If introduced into the game as a cruiser (and not as a Battleship) it would have the largest guns to be mounted on one at 9 x 406mm and capable of 31 knots, putting her closer to a Battleship than a Cruiser and as such may be pushing the idea of Supercruiser to its very limits even if the armor scheme was closer to Cruiser than Battleship. 

Now as suggested by 1MajorKoenig, the Fast BB line with a focus on good AP and accurate guns over HE spam of the regular BB.

T3 Indefatigable 

T4 Lion/Queen Mary

T5 Tiger

T6 Renown

T7 Admiral.

T8 G3 Design

T9 paper 

T10 paper

For the tier 9 and 10 Paper ships my own personal suggestion would be to mirror the current 457mm US ships with the tier 9 being the Lion with 3x2 457mm turrets and the tier 10 being a tweaked version of the Thunderer (call her the Thunderchild for giggles) and the Courageous being moved down a tier to tier 6 as the RN answer to the Graf Spee, aka a mid tier supercruiser.

I mean... That would be nice and hopefully one day we will get them but... I would prefer KMS BattleCruisers

Do we really want a bigger version of the HMS CAs or Azuma but actually powerful? The game already has way too much HE spam so I would be more excited about a KMS BC line as you know they will use AP and very little HE

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Just now, XurMP said:

I mean... That would be nice and hopefully one day we will get them but... I would prefer KMS BattleCruisers

Do we really want a bigger version of the HMS CAs or Azuma but actually powerful? The game already has way too much HE spam so I would be more excited about a KMS BC line as you know they will use AP and very little HE

The idea with the RN Battlecruiser BB line is that they generally have fewer guns, more accurate and much better AP than the regular line. In fact I'd actually give the BC RN line regular HE pen instead of 1/4 pen but that's just my crazy idea for it.

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