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Col_Nasty

Radar. Playing with it or against it. Is this fair?

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A View from BOTH sides.

I use Radar , I hide from radar. ( disclaimer, I play aggressively in all my ships..DD,  CA or BB)

That I do both often qualifies me enough to express this. Not an excel worksheet or A P&L statement.

Just trying to make sense ( I know, I know ) what the thinking could have possibly been when they developed it.  

1) USING IT....I can abuse radar if I want to camp behind an island near the cap safe and free from detection, wait until some brave DD commander does his/her job and contests that cap and then light them up to die with my technology that does not now and has never existed , Radar that can see through solid rock.  I can do this with impunity from as far as 12km away... Add a second teammate and we can do that the entire match.

2) HIDING FROM IT....MOST DDs have a max torp range SHORTER than the Max Radar ranges.   It doesn't matter if you have a sub 6km conceal when if you get any closer than 10 to 12 KM you Can\will be lit up with your tiny little HP pool for the entire red team to pounce on.

Why can't the radaring ship also get lit up for all to see?  When did they invent a radar system that in real time communicates to every single plane and ship in the combat area INSTANTLY?

I've learned to play around it in my DDs, or should I say SURVIVE around it, get plenty of high XP games everyday, but that is not the point.  What I can say is 90% of the time I die it's due to Radar. 5% to Derping into Torps while doing stupid things and 5% in knife fights that caught me by surprise.

Playing my Radar ships 99% of the DDs I kill are due to my or my Teammates Radar, not great DD hunting skills or tactics. 

What I guess I am asking here is, was this a direct nerf to DDs or a HUGE buff to the CAs/CLs? 

Adult opinions and comments welcomed.

Col Standing By

Edited by Col_Nasty
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Consider if radar couldnt see through terrain. Every single island would a full torpedo salvo ambush waiting to happen. With most islands being located around the center of the map, and no way to spot destroyers hiding behind them, gameplay would be forced the sides and rear of the map. Players, not all but a large portion, are already afraid of DDs. 

While yes, you could maneuver around an island with your bow forward to ensure you dont eat a full torpedo spread, most players simply wouldnt.

As for the power of radar, it's a necessary evil. Without radar the destroyers ability to affect the outcome of battles would be even greater. CV and DD compete for most influential class per battle, as soon at the community contributor summit, and without a CV there is no direct counter play to destroyers. Most ships cannot outrun them, none can outshot them, and well placed torpedoes are the most effective armament in game as they do not suffer RNG.

Edit: Also destroyers would be less inclined to spot and more inclined to simply camp an island waiting to deliver their payload on the first ship to round an island.

Edited by Skuggsja

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Prior to Radar, Cruisers didn't really have the tools to deal with dds, despite supposedly being the counter to dds.

1. DDs were considerably stealthier.

2. Almost always faster.

3. Most can stealth torp.

There main threats were actually other DDs and the occasional somewhat rare carrier (at that time).

This leads to the situation were a DD that didn't want to be spotted by a cruiser, could entirely avoid it the entire game. Great for the DD, bad for the cruiser. Radar at least allows the cruiser to briefly extend its sight considerably. Also keep in mind, for a 20 minute game, each cruiser is at best only going to have enough charges to keep Radar up for about 1/10 of the game. It adds some risk to the DDs game play but doesn't remove them entirely. Its only really a problem if you have 4+ cruisers with Radar on both sides, at which point careful and co-ordinated Radar can be difficult to get around, though not impossible.

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6 minutes ago, Jemention said:

Prior to Radar, Cruisers didn't really have the tools to deal with dds, despite supposedly being the counter to dds.

1. DDs were considerably stealthier.

2. Almost always faster.

3. Most can stealth torp.

There main threats were actually other DDs and the occasional somewhat rare carrier (at that time).

This leads to the situation were a DD that didn't want to be spotted by a cruiser, could entirely avoid it the entire game. Great for the DD, bad for the cruiser. Radar at least allows the cruiser to briefly extend its sight considerably. Also keep in mind, for a 20 minute game, each cruiser is at best only going to have enough charges to keep Radar up for about 1/10 of the game. It adds some risk to the DDs game play but doesn't remove them entirely. Its only really a problem if you have 4+ cruisers with Radar on both sides, at which point careful and co-ordinated Radar can be difficult to get around, though not impossible.

Pretty good summary. I'd say radar is easy to get around. All you need is either distance or cover. Either you are far enough away it doesn't meaningfully spot you or you are behind something shielded from taking any fire when spotted. Either is easily accomplished with some situational awareness and a moment's worth of planning.

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I play a fair bit of DD.  Radar honestly is not (should not) be a huge concern.

1.  You know the enemy radar ranges and almost always you spot the enemy radar ships before they spot you.  You can always place yourself in a position where you are outside enemy radar range if you so choose.

2.  If you position yourself so that you can turn and run away easy when detected by radar, you should generally be okay.  Almost everyone will struggle mightily to kill a dd that is running away with a small profile with slight weaving at the 8km+ range.  If you sail into a cap bow on and have to do a full 180 turn, then you will probably die.

3.  I feel (I have no data or information to confirm this bias) that most DD players like to use their smoke.  I feel smoke is a consumable for the rest of the team and not for the DD player generally.  Lay a smoke screen for your cruisers at 12-14km out (depending on whether a Russian cruiser is around) and use position to keep yourself safe as you do your job.

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Overall it's a good thing IMO. Gives counterplay against DDs, which I think is needed. In a game so much about concealment, giving it all to one class would be busted (ignoring CVs for now).

That said, I think now it's a bit ridiculous. Russian ship sits behind island, pops radar. Two caps completely lit for more than 30 sec, no counterplay for any DD in them.

I think that for ships not in line of sight of the radar ship they should be spotted on the minimap, but not displayed on any player's HUD. Even if another ship had LOS they don't show up on the HUD. Only if the radar ship has LOS does the ship appear on the HUD. Obviously only islands could block this, smoke is treated as if it's not there during radar. Basically the radar ship has to be able to shoot the ship it's radaring for others to be able to shoot them.

This forces the radar ship to have to expose itself to counter fire. It can't spot from behind an island. But at the same time it allows radar to still provide tactical info. You suspect there's a DD behind that island, so you pop radar. Now you know where he is, but no one can actually shoot him. It's still unrealistic, but I think completely blocking vision around islands isn't viable. This seems like a good balance between allowing counterplay and providing information.

Also extend this to hydro.

This would require some serious tweaking to how the spotting engine works. We'd need two different detected indicators: Detected: lit on minimap. Spotted: Everyone can see you, time to run. Based on what WG has said, this wouldn't be straightforward to implement, which is probably why they haven't utilized in any way.

It's an added complexity to the detection system, which isn't always desirable. But in this case I think it's still relatively straightforward, and would make radar play a lot less braindead.

 

Quote

Why can't the radaring ship also get lit up for all to see?  When did they invent a radar system that in real time communicates to every single plane and ship in the combat area INSTANTLY?

About the 1980s IIRC

Edited by AJTP89

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Like Smolensk, the threat is bigger than its bite.  A DM for example, can sit near a cap and make his presence known, and basically prevent people from entering it, without even using radar.  That threat will keep people at bay, usually.

Radar balances out stealthy DDs with high alpha strikes.  The balance for radar is, only certain ships can use it, and some have to give up something to take it.

If you further restrict radar from going through islands, etc....you make radar less useful, and DDs much more powerful.  So then you'll need to balance things in favor of cruisers....and so on and so on.

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At this point in time, radar is a fairly small problem for most DDs. That being said. It does suck when you get into a game against 4-6 radar ships because you will find it difficult to get anything done most of the match.

Also, I thought they introduced radar to combat ships (DDs) in smoke shooting without the risk of being spotted. Either way, it would be nice if radar range was something was something like 8 km at most, or at least nerf the concealment of some of the ships with radar (US cruisers). The second they are spotted, they can basically pop radar and find you.

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1 hour ago, Skuggsja said:

Consider if radar couldnt see through terrain. Every single island would a full torpedo salvo ambush waiting to happen. With most islands being located around the center of the map, and no way to spot destroyers hiding behind them, gameplay would be forced the sides and rear of the map. Players, not all but a large portion, are already afraid of DDs. 

While yes, you could maneuver around an island with your bow forward to ensure you dont eat a full torpedo spread, most players simply wouldnt.

As for the power of radar, it's a necessary evil. Without radar the destroyers ability to affect the outcome of battles would be even greater. CV and DD compete for most influential class per battle, as soon at the community contributor summit, and without a CV there is no direct counter play to destroyers. Most ships cannot outrun them, none can outshot them, and well placed torpedoes are the most effective armament in game as they do not suffer RNG.

Edit: Also destroyers would be less inclined to spot and more inclined to simply camp an island waiting to deliver their payload on the first ship to round an island.

So, the solution was to eliminate DD play?   And, we wonder where the population went to !  They could have attempted to balance DD's......  But, eliminating their sole defense, stealth, sell ships.............  Now, we have no  traditional role expectations and many are confused as to why we have endless Stomps????   Ah, there are huge skill holes because a great many of us retired from Randoms because of Radar and Planes....   Population may be stable but "skill" densities seriously are messed up !!!

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15 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

So, the solution was to eliminate DD play?   And, we wonder where the population went to !  They could have attempted to balance DD's......  But, eliminating their sole defense, stealth, sell ships.............  Now, we have no  traditional role expectations and many are confused as to why we have endless Stomps????   Ah, there are huge skill holes because a great many of us retired from Randoms because of Radar and Planes....   Population may be stable but "skill" densities seriously are messed up !!!

IT's all WGing knows how to do.. fix a problem with a sledgehammer, and when that makes too big of a dent, take an even bigger sledgehamer and slam the opposite side.. rinse repeat...

 

First we had a huge issue with DD's being OP as hell. (They still are tbh, hence why they're expected to do everything.. because they can..). But instead of fixing the balance, they introduced radar.. Then they fked with smoke, then fked with it again.. Now you're getting submarines...

 

gg

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1 minute ago, Lady_Athena said:

IT's all WGing knows how to do.. fix a problem with a sledgehammer, and when that makes too big of a dent, take an even bigger sledgehamer and slam the opposite side.. rinse repeat...

First we had a huge issue with DD's being OP as hell. (They still are tbh, hence why they're expected to do everything.. because they can..). But instead of fixing the balance, they introduced radar.. Then they fked with smoke, then fked with it again.. Now you're getting submarines...gg

Which, I can't wait for !  But, for all of the wrong reasons I guess.

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One radar ship is fine, but it's never 1. It's always 2-6 rotating radar and you are competently useless with 8km torps that you can't go in to use. Meanwhile your team is yelling at you to push caps because they are too dumb to realize the radar threat

I've also been stealth radared which shouldn't be a thing. Concealment values need to be tweaked on radar ships so there isn't a gap.

Radar needs to be brought down to 8 km. The torp range of a lot of dds. So there is a bit of counterplay when dealing with rotating radar. At the very least the 12km radar needs to be brought down to 10km. No reason for Russian bias.

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1 hour ago, Col_Nasty said:

Adult opinions and comments welcomed.

Col Standing By

Is this "Fair?" seems to be the question........  Is radar IAW standards - yes.  Is radar legitimate - yes, because this is their game......  Now, if you equate "fair" to "balance" - no.  To have the 1969 version of Radar in the game and to consider it "balanced" you'd need some "method or tools" to mitigate Radar's effects......  No mitigation = no balance....  Chaff, Jamming or one-radar = one ship..........then, let's have a Is this fair" discussion that means something.

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25 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

So, the solution was to eliminate DD play?   And, we wonder where the population went to !  They could have attempted to balance DD's......  But, eliminating their sole defense, stealth, sell ships.............  Now, we have no  traditional role expectations and many are confused as to why we have endless Stomps????   Ah, there are huge skill holes because a great many of us retired from Randoms because of Radar and Planes....   Population may be stable but "skill" densities seriously are messed up !!!

That's a very extreme outlook. Radar has a range, a run time duration, and a limit on total usage. It's not as of destroyers remain permanently spotted by radar for an entire match.

Without radar, most ships could be easily stealth torped for the entire game without a Destroyer playing needing to ever be spotted. The skill gap in good destroyers versus bad destroyers would taint matches even more than it already does.

Literally every complaint about not risking a ship or the ability to do damage without ever recieving any that is lobbied against carriers could be lobbied against destroyers if not for radar. The same is true of lack of counter play. Would the endless stream of torpedoes be ok because you could "just dodge?"

You're argument basically comes across as if you want to be able to do as you please without consideration of any balance.

Do tell me what the counter to destroyers would be without radar. It would be completely reliant on CVs and DDs or simply hoping that a destroyer player misplayed and broke his own concealment.

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18 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

Which, I can't wait for !  But, for all of the wrong reasons I guess.

I'm pretty excited for submarines actually, they'll be a fun and interesting addition.

 

That being said. I know Wging is going to take several sledgehammers to them and give them the cv treatment.

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Nothing really wrong with radar from a balance perspective... but we REALLY dont need more of it right now... 

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2 hours ago, Old_Baldy_One said:

Like Smolensk, the threat is bigger than its bite.  A DM for example, can sit near a cap and make his presence known, and basically prevent people from entering it, without even using radar.  That threat will keep people at bay, usually.

Radar balances out stealthy DDs with high alpha strikes.  The balance for radar is, only certain ships can use it, and some have to give up something to take it.

If you further restrict radar from going through islands, etc....you make radar less useful, and DDs much more powerful.  So then you'll need to balance things in favor of cruisers....and so on and so on.

I would say the issue is not just radar in itself its the prevalence of it and the short cooldown. Just like how multiple CVs are an issue its very common to see 4-5 radar ships a game with 3-5 charges of radar each. When radar was first released it had a very long cool down similar to spotter planes. You blew your radar at the wrong time and it was punishing to have to wait until the cool down was up. In its current state its just a big wide cast fishing net with no worries about it cooldown. Press radar button to see whats out there all from the safety of a rock/mountain. Wasn't one of the complaints about CV's being no risk and all reward? This is exactly the situation with radar. The difference here is I'm not advocating to limit how many radar ships are in a game. I believe the tool should require some consideration on when to use rather than spam as soon as its ready.

I propose increasing the cooldown of radar so people think before hitting the "I win" button and DDs have a chance to counter play around its cooldown.

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2 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

A View from BOTH sides.

I use Radar , I hide from radar. ( disclaimer, I play aggressively in all my ships..DD,  CA or BB)

That I do both often qualifies me enough to express this. Not an excel worksheet or A P&L statement.

Just trying to make sense ( I know, I know ) what the thinking could have possibly been when they developed it.  

1) USING IT....I can abuse radar if I want to camp behind an island near the cap safe and free from detection, wait until some brave DD commander does his/her job and contests that cap and then light them up to die with my technology that does not now and has never existed , Radar that can see through solid rock.  I can do this with impunity from as far as 12km away... Add a second teammate and we can do that the entire match.

2) HIDING FROM IT....MOST DDs have a max torp range SHORTER than the Max Radar ranges.   It doesn't matter if you have a sub 6km conceal when if you get any closer than 10 to 12 KM you Can\will be lit up with your tiny little HP pool for the entire red team to pounce on.

Why can't the radaring ship also get lit up for all to see?  When did they invent a radar system that in real time communicates to every single plane and ship in the combat area INSTANTLY?

I've learned to play around it in my DDs, or should I say SURVIVE around it, get plenty of high XP games everyday, but that is not the point.  What I can say is 90% of the time I die it's due to Radar. 5% to Derping into Torps while doing stupid things and 5% in knife fights that caught me by surprise.

Playing my Radar ships 99% of the DDs I kill are due to my or my Teammates Radar, not great DD hunting skills or tactics. 

What I guess I am asking here is, was this a direct nerf to DDs or a HUGE buff to the CAs/CLs? 

Adult opinions and comments welcomed.

Col Standing By

IMO ships that fire fresh torpedo salvos every 1-2 minutes is a far more egregious exaggeration of technology than radar going through solid rock. I play DDs all the time, radar is just part of this game and I expect it in every game.

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3 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

1) USING IT....I can abuse radar if I want to camp behind an island near the cap safe and free from detection, wait until some brave DD commander does his/her job and contests that cap and then light them up to die with my technology that does not now and has never existed , Radar that can see through solid rock.  I can do this with impunity from as far as 12km away... Add a second teammate and we can do that the entire match.

Radar cannot see through solid rock. Radar as used in this game can make enemy units on the other side of non navigable pixels appear to your team.

You cannot do this the entire match. The max amount of radars you can have in a Moskva is 4. If you have a team mate, that is 8. The maximum time for each of those radars when using the radar module and the consumables module is 40 seconds. The cooldown for the radar is 120 seconds, so after both you and your team mate have used radar for 80 seconds, neither of you will be able to use radar for 40 seconds. You can chain radars 4 times. If triggered as soon as they are avialable, you will run out of radar 7:20 into a 20:00 game. You will be without radar for 73% of the match.

3 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

2) HIDING FROM IT....MOST DDs have a max torp range SHORTER than the Max Radar ranges.   It doesn't matter if you have a sub 6km conceal when if you get any closer than 10 to 12 KM you Can\will be lit up with your tiny little HP pool for the entire red team to pounce on.

Then you have obviously taken off concealment Expert on your destroyers and used those valuable points where they are more useful, right?

3 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

Why can't the radaring ship also get lit up for all to see?  When did they invent a radar system that in real time communicates to every single plane and ship in the combat area INSTANTLY?

The radar system in this game was invented by WG for the game and it works exactly as they designed it. And radar ships are lit up by enemy ships using radar against them, just like every other ship in the game. They are not immune to radar.

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Lets not forget about the detriment to the entire RN CL line. Ra

2 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

 

The radar system in this game was invented by WG for the game and it works exactly as they designed it. And radar ships are lit up by enemy ships using radar against them, just like every other ship in the game. They are not immune to radar.

I played a FPS that gave a class a 3 second wall hack like radar. The downside to it was it emitted a high pitch noise when it was used that gave you the general position of its user. How about letting the enemy team see that radar wave animation that comes out. This would spice things up a little bit by giving out general location information on the user.

 

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2 hours ago, Glamorboy said:

I play a fair bit of DD.  Radar honestly is not (should not) be a huge concern.

1.  You know the enemy radar ranges and almost always you spot the enemy radar ships before they spot you.  You can always place yourself in a position where you are outside enemy radar range if you so choose.

2.  If you position yourself so that you can turn and run away easy when detected by radar, you should generally be okay.  Almost everyone will struggle mightily to kill a dd that is running away with a small profile with slight weaving at the 8km+ range.  If you sail into a cap bow on and have to do a full 180 turn, then you will probably die.

3.  I feel (I have no data or information to confirm this bias) that most DD players like to use their smoke.  I feel smoke is a consumable for the rest of the team and not for the DD player generally.  Lay a smoke screen for your cruisers at 12-14km out (depending on whether a Russian cruiser is around) and use position to keep yourself safe as you do your job.

I disagree.  

1. Yes you know enemy radar ranges, does not do you any good really if you are trying to actually scout and cap. Based on what you are saying you can't get close enough to do that, scouting and capping,  if you are respecting radar ranges - If you place yourself outside of enemy radar range you have taken your DD out of the role it's intended for. Sure you may survive..  but .. not to mention,  i can't spot a ship behind an island.. but they can see me.  And not capping fairly early will more often then not cost you the game.  And oh the joy of multiple radar ships at the same cap.. arrg..

1a. Oh .. and if the radar guys don't get you that elusive CV player most likely will.  

2. I've have done the positioning, setup perfectly, had a decent way out,  but when Radar paints you and the entire red team at the Cap, oh let's see, a DM with a what? 6 second reload, a Mino? a SMOL? you get the picture,  maybe just maybe you can't run away fast enough.. even with a good escape route , and in some cases those are hard to come by.. escape routes that is.  of course that's ME at my skill level.. Others may fair better..  

3. I disagree with you on smoke,  sure what you are saying is a good thing IF you have folks that will take advantage of it.. most i have found don't.  I use smoke or try to at least as a last resort and to help break off contact if i can, works sometimes.. not always.. or i use smoke as a bait..  lay it down but don't stay in it..  hoping i don't get CV'd, Radar'd or out spotted by another DD.. LOL.  

I'm not playing much right now, but between radar and cv's playing dd's was getting to be un-fun.

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4 minutes ago, Ban_CV_Complainers said:

Lets not forget about the detriment to the entire RN CL line. Ra

I played a FPS that gave a class a 3 second wall hack like radar. The downside to it was it emitted a high pitch noise when it was used that gave you the general position of its user. How about letting the enemy team see that radar wave animation that comes out. This would spice things up a little bit by giving out general location information on the user.

 

If a person doesn't know the general location of 95% of the radar in the game, nothing more will help them.

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Just now, Ducky_shot said:

If a person doesn't know the general location of 95% of the radar in the game, nothing more will help them.

The it wont fix everything so dont even try approach. Ah yes.

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Just now, Ban_CV_Complainers said:

The it wont fix everything so dont even try approach. Ah yes.

For those players that can't figure out where the radar is in those 95% of times, knowing where the radar ship is the 5% of times that a player manages to get into a more interesting spot won't help them either.

I say we ban the radar complainers.

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