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RainbowFartingUnicorn

Initial Submarine Thoughts

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Submarines are... interesting. 

1. Launching torpedoes is extremely cumbersome. U-69 is the worst for this because of the short range. Landing sonar pings is difficult because there is extremely limited feedback about where your pings land when you miss. The torpedoes do not home very well except on nearly broadside targets, and because of your poor underwater maneuverability and for-obvious-reasons poor launch angles, there is only an extremely small window to launch in most cases. You have to manage the ping duration with the run time of your torpedoes. At close range, unless you are aiming in exactly the right direction, the homing is not maneuverable enough to land hits.

2. A big part of this is that you have to aim in three dimensions. If you are at a different depth than your target, the odds are your torpedoes will not have enough maneuverability to hit. You essentially need to be pointed directly at your target... in all three dimensions, rather than just two. I found it impossible to hit targets on the surface, even at max range, from max depth. Which is OK. But also, all surface ships are faster and more maneuverable than you, so they are in and out of your effective launch window really fast.

3. Navigation feels really weird because depth perception is so hard. The way around this seems to be to ignore the fact that your sub appears to be ascending all the time. If you are not pressing "F" or "C," you are not really changing depth, no matter what it looks like. Navigating seems most effective with the minimap and depth gauge indicator. I actually kinda like this feature/challenge. 

4. Spotting is really hard to balance here. Submarines at depth are close to blind as far as targets at ranges that you can hit... but they're proxy spotting ships right next to them, which they mostly can't hit, but are spotting with near impunity for the surface ships who are right on top of them. 

5. Life is going to be very difficult for destroyers. It already is, but destroyers need to keep track of aircraft threats, surface threats, radar, and now worry about proxy spotting by hidden submarines and the demand from their own team's capital ships to hunt subs. The only saving grace is that aside from spotting, destroyers seem basically invulnerable to submarines. Too fast and maneuverable to hit with sub torpedoes. In a fixed-tier format where most of the cruisers are bots and the carriers are rare, like on the PTS, and you don't need to worry about radar because Tier VI or about higher-tier aircraft murdering you in a single pass, this can be handled. But you add on the challenges of radar and being bottom-tiered, it'd be pretty darn rough.

6. ASW is a lot of fun, but it feels like the skill floor for the submarine in evading a destroyer is very high. I did learn how to do it... a bit, but the spotting mechanics make it really hard, and escaping becomes exponentially harder the more ships are nearby, even if they aren't ASW ships. You need to basically crash dive and then use your battery for full engine power, plus hoping that the destroyer's depth charges will A) not nuke you, which they won't at max depth, but if you were low on HP and/or hit DCP already, you could be in trouble regardless, B) hope that you can juke the drop pattern of depth charges, and C) resist the urge to ping or shoot back. 

7. I had a very difficult time influencing the game as a submarine. You're so slow, and you're mostly effective against capital ships who are also slow, so it seems like you spend a substantial portion of the game just getting to where you can hit something, and then a lot of the rest of it running and hiding.

Overall, I think the game mode is real fun the way it is, but I see a lot of storm clouds on the horizon in going to the live server when PvP games have no bots, radar comes into the picture, and you can be bottom-tiered.

Edited by RainbowFartingUnicorn
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All very good points, this is IMO currently going to be RTS CV problem.... Some players will absolutely excel in this and wipe a map the majority will suck and find it no fun and then we have the CV problem back....

It is over complicated, How about simply use the DD sighting system period.... Ditch homing torps....  give them a simple detection rang starting at 5.4 with modifiers could get it to 4.4 and with camo 4.1 Surface and when submerged loose the camo detection bumping it back to 4.4. A sub can submerge for 5 minutes but must stay surfaced 3 minutes allowing them to only submerge 3 times (typical amount of many consumables) and heals at high tiers can only be performed on surface.

Done and ready.

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Just now, Mustangrde1 said:

All very good points, this is IMO currently going to be RTS CV problem.... Some players will absolutely excel in this and wipe a map the majority will suck and find it no fun and then we have the CV problem back....

It is over complicated, How about simply use the DD sighting system period.... Ditch homing torps....  give them a simple detection rang starting at 5.4 with modifiers could get it to 4.4 and with camo 4.1 Surface and when submerged loose the camo detection bumping it back to 4.4. A sub can submerge for 5 minutes but must stay surfaced 3 minutes allowing them to only submerge 3 times (typical amount of many consumables) and heals at high tiers can only be performed on surface.

Done and ready.

you are forgetting the sub v sub case though...

 

how do you deal with that?  you have a 2d spread firing in a 3d environment

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1 minute ago, SKurj said:

you are forgetting the sub v sub case though...

 

how do you deal with that?  you have a 2d spread firing in a 3d environment

Naaaa not forgetting just using the Wargaming mentality of CV vs CV logic....

But ok.... Pinging will only work for Subs they get pinged by another sub torps lock on.... not home in but lock on either the sub fired on can dodge or get hit like any other ship.

My biggest fear is this will Be the CV vs CV [edited] Magnified.... a Sub is still alive at the end and can either run never to be seen allowing for a very boring end of the game or hide where he/she could cover 2 caps and the enemy ships wont risk capping at the end or try and die never seeing the enemy.

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5 minutes ago, SKurj said:

you are forgetting the sub v sub case though...

 

how do you deal with that?  you have a 2d spread firing in a 3d environment

I honestly think just using the homing torps for fighting other subs, and use surface style torping vs surface ships.

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1 minute ago, DemonGod3 said:

I honestly think just using the homing torps for fighting other subs, and use surface style torping vs surface ships.

 

dd's can already dodge torps pretty well, the only way a sub will hit a dd is pretty much point blank.. a 2 torp spread?  easy for a dd to dodge.  so dumb fired torps will be useless against the subs most likely opponent.   and it will not be able to engage effectively without being spotted, so sub is dead.

So now we are back to 16 torp spread to be able to hit stuff...

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2 minutes ago, SKurj said:

So now we are back to 16 torp spread to be able to hit stuff...

Just lower the detection of the torps .5k  and HELL NO on 16 torps... max 6 and yes in high tier a booster <i see that coming so why not get the monkey out>  so 12.... Subs will have to have low detection or high speed. If they go long lance for the IJN for instance every shima driver will scream like my granddaughter when you take something from her.

It is the damage and detection that is going to be the hardest to balance more than anything IMO.

I would really love to see them in game but to make it fun they might need their own mode (Random Convoy or Random Escort) Have to give more thought on what separates each, maybe one has cv one doesnt.

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23 minutes ago, Mustangrde1 said:

All very good points, this is IMO currently going to be RTS CV problem.... Some players will absolutely excel in this and wipe a map the majority will suck and find it no fun and then we have the CV problem back....

It is over complicated, How about simply use the DD sighting system period.... Ditch homing torps....  give them a simple detection rang starting at 5.4 with modifiers could get it to 4.4 and with camo 4.1 Surface and when submerged loose the camo detection bumping it back to 4.4. A sub can submerge for 5 minutes but must stay surfaced 3 minutes allowing them to only submerge 3 times (typical amount of many consumables) and heals at high tiers can only be performed on surface.

Done and ready.

Subs as PT boats with a cloaking device then...not submarines.

Not really a solution that seems brilliant.

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Just now, USMC2145 said:

And yet a bunch of the CC like flamuu say the new subs are OP.... 

They are, in some ways.

The porpoising exploit is a serious problem.

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Just now, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

They are, in some ways.

The porpoising exploit is a serious problem.

I have heard as smuch. Have not really played them enough to judge, but playing them today more. Just wondering why so many CC are up in arms. 

Edited by USMC2145

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1 minute ago, USMC2145 said:

I have heard as smuch. Have not really played them enough to judge, but playing them today more. Just wondering why so many CC are up in arms. 

Being up in arms gets views and clicks.

Wanting to influence the meta to one they like.

Trying to build support for better balancing of the new subs.

Getting a little payback at WG for being jerks to the CCs.

Take your pick.

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My thoughts about Subs..A lot of majority of players will hate it.

 

I just gonna watch the storm past..and see how much damage it would do.

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After doing the ASW thing, I think the subs make great bait, everyone is trying to kill or avoid getting killed by subs and making themselves easy targets for surface ships. 

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My plan for playing subs.  Go to a cap.  Park on the bottom.  Go make a sandwich until the game is over.  

 

...this is a joke of course.

Edited by Captain_Rawhide

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3 minutes ago, Captain_Rawhide said:

My plan for playing subs.  Go to a cap.  Park on the bottom.  Go make a sandwich until the game is over.  

Can you cap or block the other team capping while "on the bottom"?  

(I've yet to be able to play AS a "submarine" in PTS, the queue has been at least 600 morbidly curious players waiting in "subs" ever time I've logged in.)  

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter

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13 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Can you cap or block the other team capping while "on the bottom"?  

(I've yet to be able to play AS a "submarine" in PTS, the queue has been at least 600 morbidly curious players waiting in "subs" ever time I've logged in.)  

 

 

no,

and don't worry about the queue, i managed to get a sub in 3-4 minutes every time i tried even when the queue was 400+

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Just now, SKurj said:

no

OK, so running over, sitting on the bottom in a cap, and walking away from the game to make a sandwich... will do nothing but waste the ship slot, anger the "team", and probably get zero/little payout.  

At least WG anticipated and addressed that issue.   Good. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, KilljoyCutter said:

OK, so running over, sitting on the bottom in a cap, and walking away from the game to make a sandwich... will do nothing but waste the ship slot, anger the "team", and probably get zero/little payout.  

At least WG anticipated and addressed that issue.   Good. 

Must surface to cap

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Just now, SKurj said:

Must surface to cap

I get it, that's what I thought, but given the other poster's "this is what I'm going to do" I wanted to be certain I hadn't misread something.  

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Subs are still too fast and have too much HP IMO.

The speed needs to be cut by about 1/3, so 10ish underwater and 16-18ish on the surface at T6. Maybe have the current speeds as the T10 speed.

The HP needs to be about 80% of where it is now. Subs are much more fragile than DDs and have very little reserve buoyancy, so they don't need to be almost as strong or as strong as DDs IMO. 

 

YMMV and based on general comments about subs, it evidently does.

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24 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

Subs are still too fast and have too much HP IMO.

The speed needs to be cut by about 1/3, so 10ish underwater and 16-18ish on the surface at T6. Maybe have the current speeds as the T10 speed.

The HP needs to be about 80% of where it is now. Subs are much more fragile than DDs and have very little reserve buoyancy, so they don't need to be almost as strong or as strong as DDs IMO. 

 

YMMV and based on general comments about subs, it evidently does.

i can see where you are coming from speed wise, but that would mean running around submerged at 10-12kn max... and 1/4 would be 3-4 knots.  mostly just thinking about how fast would a Tier 10 end up...  ...  But at T6 those low speeds would really suck

Not sure where you are coming from about HP, 80% means any DD has a good chance of nuking a sub in one dc pass... and dd's already have 50% more than some subs...

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1 hour ago, USMC2145 said:

And yet a bunch of the CC like flamuu say the new subs are OP.... 

Flamuu is OP pls nerf.

Yes, I have seen several players for whom submarines really seem to be working. This was just my 51%-win-rate opinion.

Edited by RainbowFartingUnicorn

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1 hour ago, SKurj said:

dd's can already dodge torps pretty well, the only way a sub will hit a dd is pretty much point blank.. a 2 torp spread?  easy for a dd to dodge.  so dumb fired torps will be useless against the subs most likely opponent.   and it will not be able to engage effectively without being spotted, so sub is dead.

So now we are back to 16 torp spread to be able to hit stuff...

As someone who basically sucks at manual attacks, hitting the sonar pings at anything but point blank range has been a futile effort.

Thank you WG; you actually exceeded my expectations.

I didn’t think there’d be any way for you to create something I would dislike more than your FPS carriers.

1 hour ago, 9TenSix2Eight said:

My thoughts about Subs..A lot of majority of players will hate it.

So far yes.

The frustration levels, and watching the usual ’this is so easy’ players running around destroying everything in sight make any continued effort seem pointless.

1 hour ago, 9TenSix2Eight said:

I just gonna watch the storm past..and see how much damage it would do.

Probably me as well.

1 hour ago, SKurj said:

and don't worry about the queue, i managed to get a sub in 3-4 minutes every time i tried even when the queue was 400+

The only positive thing about what was otherwise a complete waste of time for me.

Huge queues, but relatively fast (2-4 mins,) getting in to games.

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2 hours ago, SKurj said:

you are forgetting the sub v sub case though...

 

how do you deal with that?  you have a 2d spread firing in a 3d environment

Submarine vs Submarine is going to be a thing.

Not so much out necessity, but because the subs are going to stumble across each other quite a bit.

mnHlpzP.jpgHreDCf3.jpg

 

I didn't make it a point to hunt other submarines.  I try to avoid fast, nimble DDs and Cruisers, I wanted to get at the Battleships but it's difficult to do so when there's a screen of subs, DDs, Cruisers.  Getting pings to home the torpedoes on is very troublesome.  But anyways, I end up coming across subs by chance, so I go after them.

 

But I will say it's really weird on PTS.  Everyone is trying to figure these things out, how to play, getting used to how clumsy submarines sail, trying to effectively use their torpedo system (not well I might add, judging by all the criss crossing submarine torpedoes missing everything).

 

CVs are very annoying, some of the CV players stumble upon your position and the enemy team knows where you are at.  Some of the CV players will go after you.  You can dive and save yourself, but you are now submerged and your speed is greatly reduced.  If you are out somewhere alone and there's an enemy DD / Cruiser in the area, you're in trouble.  If the ASW capable ship isn't forced away by surface ships of your own team, you are in BIG trouble.

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