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admiralsexybeast

CV Clan Teams vs BB Clan Teams, Your Thoughts?

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First off, I'm stating this opinion from the perspective of a clan that is using a CV in our lineup.  Tonight we got a late start, but got 6 games in. 3 of our 6 games were against BB teams and we won 2 of those by pretty comfortable margins and curb stomped the third. In our 3 games against other CV teams we won 2 and lost the third by 2 points. So, do I think that the advantages of the CV outweigh the advantages of the BB? My answer would be a definite YES. Basically against BB teams, we had a HUGE reconnaissance advantage. At the start of those games, our CV would send planes to scan the whole map. This allowed us to see very early on how the enemy team was going to deploy, which side was going to get the push, what ships we going where, etc. We could see what their battle plan was from the get go and make our own adjustments to counter it pretty easily. The BB team on the other hand could do no such thing in return. They were largely in the dark to what we were doing while we knew what they were going to do ahead of time. They brought DDs to scout, but they couldn't scout anywhere near as quickly or efficiently as our CV could. Typically, the DDs died very quickly either blapped by rockets, or perma spotted by planes and focused down. The enemy would naturally "death ball" for AA, but then we could just encircle and cross shot them. I get WG wants to try new things, but I really think smaller clans that don't have a good or at least competent CV player, or don't even have a T10 CV in their fleet at all really got shafted this season. If WG is bound and determined to have CVs in CBs then they need to at least fix the MM and make it so CV teams only play other CV teams and BB teams only play other BB teams. Again, I'm not saying this as a clan that doesn't have a CV and is "just whining about CVs." I'm saying this as a clan that is using a CV and observed numerous unfair advantages our CV gave us against teams that didn't have one. What do you guys think? Is this already a serious issue? Or do we need to give it more time before jumping to conclusions?

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im not sure if people taking a bb over a cv is just like a meme intended to have a laugh because i really hope nobody would consider taking a battleship over a cv as a better option.

you have access to the most broken class of ship, unlimited spotting anywhere within 10 seconds you can spot a ship for your team, rediculous alpha damage anywhere on the map, boom 25.5k on a cruiser, smiting a destroyer for half his hp in 1 strike, all of this possible without any counterplay or any harm to your ship.

my clan has played 4 battleship teams not a single game lasted more then 6 minutes, we took 6 stalins and cv flew from the start of the game straight down the map spotted their entire team and we just laid them out because balance.

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6 hours ago, admiralsexybeast said:

clan that is using a CV in our lineup.

My experiences with this season of clan battles is your leaving out very major details as to why most CV teams appear to tromp BB teams: Stalingrads.

I was in a battle, on a battleship team when we killed the red CV early in the game, we still lost because the red tram had three Stalingrads and a Hindenburg backed up by a Smolensk.

Stalingrad got USN AP pen angles on 305mm guns. Our team only had two Moskvas. We sank their CV, their DD and two of their Stalingrads but their Hindenburg (bypasses 50mm plating) and Smolensk's finished us in the end. 

It's a common sight to see CV teams with 2-3 Stalingrads and a Hindenburg backed up by a Holland. Those teams with Stacked Stalingrads always wins over the team without them, even if they loose their carrier early.

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1 hour ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

im not sure if people taking a bb over a cv is just like a meme intended to have a laugh because i really hope nobody would consider taking a battleship over a cv as a better option.

you have access to the most broken class of ship, unlimited spotting anywhere within 10 seconds you can spot a ship for your team, rediculous alpha damage anywhere on the map, boom 25.5k on a cruiser, smiting a destroyer for half his hp in 1 strike, all of this possible without any counterplay or any harm to your ship.

my clan has played 4 battleship teams not a single game lasted more then 6 minutes, we took 6 stalins and cv flew from the start of the game straight down the map spotted their entire team and we just laid them out because balance.

Your clan is also 07.  If your CV's game crashed, you could still win with 6 players against many teams with sheer accuracy and skill.

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Agreed.  Smaller clans like ours have limited # of tier x CV players, so we are not matching up well with teams that do.

That said, we did win vs as BB a CV last night.  Yeah for us.  

Yes, CV are OP in Clan Battles.  And Stalingrad is way OP, and Puerto Rico is OP.

 

 

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9 hours ago, admiralsexybeast said:

First off, I'm stating this opinion from the perspective of a clan that is using a CV in our lineup.  Tonight we got a late start, but got 6 games in. 3 of our 6 games were against BB teams and we won 2 of those by pretty comfortable margins and curb stomped the third. In our 3 games against other CV teams we won 2 and lost the third by 2 points. So, do I think that the advantages of the CV outweigh the advantages of the BB? My answer would be a definite YES. Basically against BB teams, we had a HUGE reconnaissance advantage. At the start of those games, our CV would send planes to scan the whole map. This allowed us to see very early on how the enemy team was going to deploy, which side was going to get the push, what ships we going where, etc. We could see what their battle plan was from the get go and make our own adjustments to counter it pretty easily. The BB team on the other hand could do no such thing in return. They were largely in the dark to what we were doing while we knew what they were going to do ahead of time. They brought DDs to scout, but they couldn't scout anywhere near as quickly or efficiently as our CV could. Typically, the DDs died very quickly either blapped by rockets, or perma spotted by planes and focused down. The enemy would naturally "death ball" for AA, but then we could just encircle and cross shot them. I get WG wants to try new things, but I really think smaller clans that don't have a good or at least competent CV player, or don't even have a T10 CV in their fleet at all really got shafted this season. If WG is bound and determined to have CVs in CBs then they need to at least fix the MM and make it so CV teams only play other CV teams and BB teams only play other BB teams. Again, I'm not saying this as a clan that doesn't have a CV and is "just whining about CVs." I'm saying this as a clan that is using a CV and observed numerous unfair advantages our CV gave us against teams that didn't have one. What do you guys think? Is this already a serious issue? Or do we need to give it more time before jumping to conclusions?

Yeah, my clan has been playing without CVs most of this season, and that pretty much sums up our experience.  And we're currently at a 51.06% win rate overall after 47 battles.  So we're not horrible players, but we've only beat CV teams maybe 2-3 times, and they've been maybe 40% of the battles.  My opinion is that we do better when we do a 4/4 split, since the CV can only focus one side at a time, and we avoid giving the other side free cross firing advantages.

I've been running my Somers, because long range torpedo spam just outside of radar range seems to work okay.  But I'm grinding the Ostergotland as fast as I can to the Halland, so I can try that out. I initially thought the high tier Swedish DDs would be death traps, despite the good AA, given that they're:  a.)  slow, b.) have no smoke, and c.) have mediocre concealment.  Any one of those could be worked around, but all three combined sound like a recipe for 3 minute matches.  But I've been pleasantly surprised by how long they can survive getting focus fired, especially with the repair party.  I'm wondering if they get some hidden dispersion bonus or something that's not listed in Wiki.

Edited by zubalkabir

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1 hour ago, Crokodone said:

My experiences with this season of clan battles is your leaving out very major details as to why most CV teams appear to tromp BB teams: Stalingrads.

I was in a battle, on a battleship team when we killed the red CV early in the game, we still lost because the red tram had three Stalingrads and a Hindenburg backed up by a Smolensk.

Stalingrad got USN AP pen angles on 305mm guns. Our team only had two Moskvas. We sank their CV, their DD and two of their Stalingrads but their Hindenburg (bypasses 50mm plating) and Smolensk's finished us in the end. 

It's a common sight to see CV teams with 2-3 Stalingrads and a Hindenburg backed up by a Holland. Those teams with Stacked Stalingrads always wins over the team without them, even if they loose their carrier early.

While Stalies do leverage the spotting advantage better than a lot of other ships, it can work well for other supercruisers or even DM/Salem.  It's very common to see a DM nestled up next to a rock firing and as soon he gets return fire he backs his spotting center back behind the rock and you have to blind fire him from there.  Now you say "Hey CV, I'd like to see that DM I just got a fire and probably just DC'd so I can make another fire stick.  Done! Within 20 seconds you can start firing again.... and not only that your CV can send torps at him to take out another 10-20k hp or force him to move, often to a yolo'ing action.

I'm sorry, it's a very unfair contest and I have no doubt the numbers will bear that out.

I'm chomping at the bit to hear WG's waffling at the end of the season when everybody starts asking THE question.  What was the WR of BBs versus CVs?

 

I'm guessing it will be an embarrassing answer, and they might not want to give it up so easily.

 

 

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8 hours ago, admiralsexybeast said:

 

Nine straight lines averaging 48 words per line is to much. 

CV's are to strong, to much vision, to much speed, hit to hard, hit to often, take no risk...…. Rinse and repeat.....

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9 hours ago, YouSatInGum said:

While Stalies do leverage the spotting advantage better than a lot of other ships, it can work well for other supercruisers or even DM/Salem.  It's very common to see a DM nestled up next to a rock firing and as soon he gets return fire he backs his spotting center back behind the rock and you have to blind fire him from there.  Now you say "Hey CV, I'd like to see that DM I just got a fire and probably just DC'd so I can make another fire stick.  Done! Within 20 seconds you can start firing again.... and not only that your CV can send torps at him to take out another 10-20k hp or force him to move, often to a yolo'ing action.

I'm sorry, it's a very unfair contest and I have no doubt the numbers will bear that out.

I'm chomping at the bit to hear WG's waffling at the end of the season when everybody starts asking THE question.  What was the WR of BBs versus CVs?

 

I'm guessing it will be an embarrassing answer, and they might not want to give it up so easily.

 

 

You missed the point, CVs vs BBs isn't the pivotal factor. It's the verity of ships and their application that is the decisive problem; and it's being misdirected at something irrelevant.

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31 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

You missed the point, CVs vs BBs isn't the pivotal factor. It's the verity of ships and their application that is the decisive problem; and it's being misdirected at something irrelevant.

I think it is very relevant.  The point is that BB teams are less competitive than CV teams.  Teams running BBs say so, teams running CVs are saying so, I expect the WR numbers at the end of the season (and right now if we could find out) will support that point.

6 Stalies and a Ohio or Yamato is more likely to lose to 6 Stalies and a Haku.

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2 hours ago, YouSatInGum said:

I think it is very relevant.  The point is that BB teams are less competitive than CV teams.  Teams running BBs say so, teams running CVs are saying so, I expect the WR numbers at the end of the season (and right now if we could find out) will support that point.

6 Stalies and a Ohio or Yamato is more likely to lose to 6 Stalies and a Haku.

ive seen the opposite. Teams with very high AA rating are almost immune to CVs the entire match. However, when Red CV team has two to three Stalingrads and a Smolenk or Hindenberg vs 2 Worcesters two Moskvas and a Des Moines and Thunderer, the Red teams advantage is in health and HE immunity from the majority of ships on the BB team.

Everyone is dismissing almost every factor related to a successful battle. Immunity zones and penetration privileges for both HE and AP are more significant than whether or not someone has a little more recon than you. At the end of the day, the CV's advantage is in finishing off isolated ships. The BB's advantage is in overcoming armor thresholds; impossible when 50mm plating is involved. AP wise of course.

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What about the almost complete lack of DDs in clan battles?

Regardless of BB or CV, there are almost always 5-6 radar cruisers in every game. Not fun for a DD player.

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44 minutes ago, epojokke said:

What about the almost complete lack of DDs in clan battles?

Regardless of BB or CV, there are almost always 5-6 radar cruisers in every game. Not fun for a DD player.

You are exactly right.

We tried running a DD.  Didn't work that well.  We will probably keep trying to see if we can still make one work, but 2 like last season is out of the question.  We like to see 2 DDs on the other team.

4 of 6 teams tonight I saw were all cruisers (save for cv). 

I can't see WG thinking 2 entire classes being mostly sidelined is a positive development for CB.

54 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

ive seen the opposite. Teams with very high AA rating are almost immune to CVs the entire match. However, when Red CV team has two to three Stalingrads and a Smolenk or Hindenberg vs 2 Worcesters two Moskvas and a Des Moines and Thunderer, the Red teams advantage is in health and HE immunity from the majority of ships on the BB team.

Everyone is dismissing almost every factor related to a successful battle. Immunity zones and penetration privileges for both HE and AP are more significant than whether or not someone has a little more recon than you. At the end of the day, the CV's advantage is in finishing off isolated ships. The BB's advantage is in overcoming armor thresholds; impossible when 50mm plating is involved. AP wise of course.

You are describing the blob strat.  The problem with it is it has a hard time with widely spaced caps, takes a while to get formed up and moving, and a good CV player can still get licks in on the periphery while the low ships get focused down.  While you do mention the advantage of finishing off low and isolated ships you should also realize the Haku's ability to do double and triple AP drops is every bit as powerful as BB AP with all the other incumbent advantages.

Edited by YouSatInGum
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24 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

should also realize the Haku's ability to do double and triple AP drops is every bit as powerful as BB AP with all the other incumbent advantages.

not really. its around 6 drops to finish off a full health Worcester, and only if with above average rng. Last battle it was our Salem VS a Hak. the CV got 1 drop off. My Moskva fared better until I got blaped trying to dodge a Peurto Rico ram.

Don't even have to blob, group, 2-3 ships with good AA is usually enough to force that CV to cling to buzzing the map, and we ran 2 DDs: Gearing & Khaba.

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11 hours ago, YouSatInGum said:

You are exactly right.

We tried running a DD.  Didn't work that well.  We will probably keep trying to see if we can still make one work, but 2 like last season is out of the question.  We like to see 2 DDs on the other team.

Last season, for the laughs and giggles, we tried 7 DDs a couple of times and it actually worked well enough for us to win.

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On 4/19/2020 at 1:09 AM, admiralsexybeast said:

What do you guys think?

It does not matter what we think... .that's what I think.

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Honestly I think the addition of the CV has killed off two other classes.  You can't take a BB, and there is no need to take a DD.

Lastly, with only cruisers as opposition, the one carrier with AP bombs becomes the obvious choice.

This season has sadly destroyed diversity.  

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Thanks to CV's our clan has largely given up on trying to jockey for position and usual Clan Battles fun for the, 'We've been playing Clan Battles long enough for most of us to have Stalingrads + Bourgogne '''''''''''strat.''''''''' The AA death ball wards off the CV's planes during the most crucial part of the battle, 12km permaradar and much of the red team also being high visibility supercruisers means the CV's spotting advantage is nullified outside of the initial deployment and the Bourgogne means we've always won the slugfest.

10/12 so far with our only losses being to teams that also had BB's, almost certainly won't be as effective against high ranking teams but eh... cross that bridge and all that.

But yeah, if you're not running pretty much the only counter to CV's of a Bourgogne (or possibly a Republique, haven't tried yet) and Balans (although Pay2Rico would definitely work and possibly Henris and/or Venezias could substitute, don't have enough to test)... CV's are ridiculous.

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So far when we run a BB vs a CV we are 7 -7 When we run a CV vs a BB we are 5 - 8 Not really seeing much of an impact yet when a CV is in the game We just reached Gale Maybe as we climb higher we will see more of an impact  on the game by CVs 

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The answer is very dependent on what you face and what CV is used. I have played against both quite a bit, and there are advantages and disadvantages. CV planes, even British ones, an get chewed up pretty good. We usually run a Conqueror, Puerto Rico, Des Moines, Smolensk, Goliath, Somers and a Shimikaze and we just buddy up for AA. Once, between the Puerto Rico and the Goliath I think we shot down 35 planes or something. The CV spotting us was a big deal but we dealt with it.

I have also been a CV player and I can tell you dealing with the massed AA most teams put up is cancerous. I think the CV has merits, but after playing several days worth of CBs, we have ways to deal with it. Tbh, I think fighting a good batttleship is harder than a CV. TX AA does a good job.

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On 4/19/2020 at 7:23 AM, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

we took 6 stalins

I really do want to try that sometime. I'm not sure if we have 6 of them right now, but I know since I got mine fairly recently, we do have at least 5. So, is it typically better to have multiple Stalins this season? Typically we would take only one "2 max," as we figured it was better to have a more diverse lineup versus all taking the exact same ship. 

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On 4/19/2020 at 1:09 AM, admiralsexybeast said:

First off, I'm stating this opinion from the perspective of a clan that is using a CV in our lineup.  Tonight we got a late start, but got 6 games in. 3 of our 6 games were against BB teams and we won 2 of those by pretty comfortable margins and curb stomped the third. In our 3 games against other CV teams we won 2 and lost the third by 2 points. So, do I think that the advantages of the CV outweigh the advantages of the BB? My answer would be a definite YES. Basically against BB teams, we had a HUGE reconnaissance advantage. At the start of those games, our CV would send planes to scan the whole map. This allowed us to see very early on how the enemy team was going to deploy, which side was going to get the push, what ships we going where, etc. We could see what their battle plan was from the get go and make our own adjustments to counter it pretty easily. The BB team on the other hand could do no such thing in return. They were largely in the dark to what we were doing while we knew what they were going to do ahead of time. They brought DDs to scout, but they couldn't scout anywhere near as quickly or efficiently as our CV could. Typically, the DDs died very quickly either blapped by rockets, or perma spotted by planes and focused down. The enemy would naturally "death ball" for AA, but then we could just encircle and cross shot them. I get WG wants to try new things, but I really think smaller clans that don't have a good or at least competent CV player, or don't even have a T10 CV in their fleet at all really got shafted this season. If WG is bound and determined to have CVs in CBs then they need to at least fix the MM and make it so CV teams only play other CV teams and BB teams only play other BB teams. Again, I'm not saying this as a clan that doesn't have a CV and is "just whining about CVs." I'm saying this as a clan that is using a CV and observed numerous unfair advantages our CV gave us against teams that didn't have one. What do you guys think? Is this already a serious issue? Or do we need to give it more time before jumping to conclusions?

CVs in CBs do offer some more dynamic gameplay. But in exchange for diversity. The best comp for this season is 6 Stalingrad, 2 Venezias and Hak(of course). CVs should be removed from CBs because it makes it less fun and less diverse.

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3 hours ago, admiralsexybeast said:

I really do want to try that sometime. I'm not sure if we have 6 of them right now, but I know since I got mine fairly recently, we do have at least 5. So, is it typically better to have multiple Stalins this season? Typically we would take only one "2 max," as we figured it was better to have a more diverse lineup versus all taking the exact same ship. 

stalins are a strong anchor ship hard to dig out and provides very good radar cap coverage but it lacks in dpm. As the season has progressed a few days everyone is starting to take ships that counter stalin like venice, goliath so its best to restrict your team to maximum of 2-3 obviously depending on your team strategy and start to take your own venice or goliath and maybe halland/daring for cap contest.

kiting h.e spammers are a no go like hindi/zao/yoshino they are just far too easy for cv to single out and get a free kill, smolensk can work if you can get it abusing islands or keep it permanently smoked because when the smoke fades and cv spots it stalins will rail it.

mix it up a little try have fun because this is going to be a long dull season with cv ruining the gameplay.

 

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