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Snargfargle

A Major Problem With Clan Battles

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There is a reason why professional sports have a draft and that is to ensure that all teams have an equal chance of getting good players. This is done because eventually people would tire of watching if one team was rich enough to hire all of the best players and thus dominate the sport year after year. The way Clan Battles are set up in WOWS allows a clan consisting of the very best players in the game to compete with clans consisting of average players. Average clans may never become competitive if they can't recruit better players or if the players they have don't get better organically.

Another problem with Clan Battles is that many clans are either to small or too disorganized to participate or would like to participate but have members from around the globe who can't schedule the same playing time.  In other multiplayer games I've played there were semi-permanent "ranks" that allowed players to get at least a general idea of how good or how experienced another player was. Players could then host games stipulating that only certain ranks be allowed. There also was a selection for random games to exclude players either much better or much worse than yourself in order to make the match more competitive.

 I realize that the Training Room can be set up to do something similar to this but without knowing the players personally it's difficult to know how good they are beforehand. Whatever happened to Team Battles? Could they not be re-instituted and set up with a skill-based matchmaker? Or is WG afraid that this would remove the better players from Randoms and cause problems there?

Edited by Snargfargle
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2 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

Another problem with Clan Battles is that many clans are either to small or too disorganized to participate or would like to participate but have members from around the globe who can't schedule the same playing time. 

Organize better or join a better organized clan....

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Just now, CV_Jeebies said:

Organize better or join a better organized clan....

This still doesn't prevent clans from excluding all but the best players and thus dominating Clan Battles. It's sort of lame if a clan fills itself full of "ringers" and then goes out and stomps all of the more organic clans.

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3 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

It's sort of lame if a clan fills itself full of "ringers" and then goes out and stomps all of the more organic clans.

I have put 0 effort into getting good at clan battles and it's sort of lame that people who put effort into it can beat me at clan battles :(

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44 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

There is a reason why professional sports have a draft and that is to ensure that all teams have an equal chance of getting good players. This is done because eventually people would tire of watching if one team was rich enough to hire all of the best players and thus dominate the sport year after year. The way Clan Battles are set up in WOWS allows a clan consisting of the very best players in the game to compete with clans consisting of average players. Average clans may never become competitive if they can't recruit better players or if the players they have don't get better organically.

Another problem with Clan Battles is that many clans are either to small or too disorganized to participate or would like to participate but have members from around the globe who can't schedule the same playing time.  In other multiplayer games I've played there were semi-permanent "ranks" that allowed players to get at least a general idea of how good or how experienced another player was. Players could then host games stipulating that only certain ranks be allowed. There also was a selection for random games to exclude players either much better or much worse than yourself in order to make the match more competitive.

 I realize that the Training Room can be set up to do something similar to this but without knowing the players personally it's difficult to know how good they are beforehand. Whatever happened to Team Battles? Could they not be re-instituted and set up with a skill-based matchmaker? Or is WG afraid that this would remove the better players from Randoms and cause problems there?

It's a wormhole for sure. Change it and top players will threaten to quit the game. Keep it as is and a handful of players will continue run the show.

 

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29 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

This still doesn't prevent clans from excluding all but the best players and thus dominating Clan Battles. It's sort of lame if a clan fills itself full of "ringers" and then goes out and stomps all of the more organic clans.

The PN family is always recruiting -- All 3 of our clans were running CBs lastnight.  While unknown players are subject base WR requirements for consideration initially 54+, 52+, 52>,  D-PN accepts all players looking to be competitive and improve game play.  If you want to get better and be more competitive, that's ultimately what you must do.  You've got access to all players and are able to div up with all 3 clans and run scrims, get feedback, etc...

We don't hide profiles though and while competitive, it's not a strict must attend type / mandatory training, but those who want to be competitive typically apply themselves / avail themselves for all opportunities to increase their abilities in competitive modes.  It looks as though you're part of a clan that's more of a social circle than competitive environment and it's difficult to change that.  One need not be in a social clan to still interact with those individuals and be on their discord, etc...  If you want to improve your game and take part in competitive modes, you're going to need to associate with those that do it.  There's nothing wrong with social clans, but trying to get a social clan to be competitive is difficult.  You members haven't joined to be competitive, and nothing you do will change that.

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I’ve really only found the disparity in clan skill levels at the beginning of a season. I’m not sure if it’s reset of previous ranks or what but generally we are pitted against teams that seem to be of fairly equal skill. Admittedly we aren’t interested in top tier competitive play so if that is someone’s goal then you need lots of practice or to join a clan that is already there imo

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59 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

This still doesn't prevent clans from excluding all but the best players and thus dominating Clan Battles. It's sort of lame if a clan fills itself full of "ringers" and then goes out and stomps all of the more organic clans.

It's a game; in the end no one is a professional, there are just some players better than some others. On another note, if WG is messing with Ops, how else are a group of friends to do something together on a larger scale in this game? :Smile_trollface:

 

If you start messing with 'who' Clans can choose or exclude, the Clans themselves will have no real identity - what's a Clan without some pride in who they are? Seriously, let the Clans who organise and work to obtain a good Clan get on with it - if things like Clan Battles mean that much to a team that they put effort into their Clan/Identity - then good luck to them! :Smile_honoring:

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24 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

If you start messing with 'who' Clans can choose or exclude, the Clans themselves will have no real identity - what's a Clan without some pride in who they are? Seriously, let the Clans who organise and work to obtain a good Clan get on with it - if things like Clan Battles mean that much to a team that they put effort into their Clan/Identity - then good luck to them! :Smile_honoring:

Clans form for any number or reasons with any number of goals.  Some may form because they're veterans, some my form because they're fire fighters or EMTs, while others form to be competitive -- some just form to get the benefits of the port.  We've got all types of folks in our clans, and many are now friends.  Not all veterans want to be competitive, not all fire fighters want to be competitive --- as such organizing under a social identity makes for less than stellar competitive play.  Those who are part of those groups that want to be competitive aren't restricting themselves to tribal groups primarily.  They're in competitive clans.  There's nothing wrong with social clans -- but to get a social clan to turn competitive when members didn't really join for such is an uphill battle.   To believe that a social clan that collects a particular tribal group has a better "identity" or whatever you'd like to call it, over one that organizes around being competitive, well that's hilarious.  One might confuse that for making excuses while existing in mediocrity.....

Edited by CV_Jeebies

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1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

There is a reason why professional sports have a draft and that is to ensure that all teams have an equal chance of getting good players. This is done because eventually people would tire of watching if one team was rich enough to hire all of the best players and thus dominate the sport year after year. The way Clan Battles are set up in WOWS allows a clan consisting of the very best players in the game to compete with clans consisting of average players. Average clans may never become competitive if they can't recruit better players or if the players they have don't get better organically.

Another problem with Clan Battles is that many clans are either to small or too disorganized to participate or would like to participate but have members from around the globe who can't schedule the same playing time.  In other multiplayer games I've played there were semi-permanent "ranks" that allowed players to get at least a general idea of how good or how experienced another player was. Players could then host games stipulating that only certain ranks be allowed. There also was a selection for random games to exclude players either much better or much worse than yourself in order to make the match more competitive.

 I realize that the Training Room can be set up to do something similar to this but without knowing the players personally it's difficult to know how good they are beforehand. Whatever happened to Team Battles? Could they not be re-instituted and set up with a skill-based matchmaker? Or is WG afraid that this would remove the better players from Randoms and cause problems there?

I was in a clan and we practiced and it made no differance.

The leages are to long and you need to many wins in a row. If they made it that you dont lose stars it would be ok(ish)

Clan battles are at a set time, very frustrating for people in different time zones or country's.

I would really like to do clan battles again because it was fun(ish) becausw you string a few losses in a row then everyone quits.

The other problem is clans split up because of loses and kicking people oit because of a bad game.

 

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14 minutes ago, CV_Jeebies said:

Clans form for any number or reasons with any number of goals.  Some may form because they're veterans, some my form because they're fire fighters or EMTs, while others form to be competitive -- some just form to get the benefits of the port.  We've got all types of folks in our clans, and many are now friends.  Not all veterans want to be competitive, not all fire fighters want to be competitive --- as such organizing under a social identity makes for less than stellar competitive play.  Those who are part of those groups that want to be competitive aren't restricting themselves to tribal groups primarily.  They're in competitive clans.  There's nothing wrong with social clans -- but to get a social clan to turn competitive when members didn't really join for such is an uphill battle.   To believe that a social clan that collects a particular tribal group has a better "identity" or whatever you'd like to call it, over one that organizes around being competitive, well that's hilarious.  One might confuse that for making excuses while existing in mediocrity.....

Exactly, each clan can have their own interest and/or background (although my comments made specifically revolve around those who are good at Clan Battles because that was the OPs topic). :Smile_honoring:

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Comparing a video game to real life sports isnt how you compare. Lets say even if the comparison is right, then sports teams with the biggest pockets always get the better players no matter what. There's no rule saying every team shall be evenly matched. It all depends on what the team is offering, salary offered, and players decision obviously. All in all it depends on the money and its human nature to gravitate towards more money. There are numerous teams out there that buy talent right from their direct competition for pennies and the club isn't able to decline as they need the money to stay in business. That business model is a player sell business model where the most income is generated by selling players graduating from the youth academy. That player goes to star for the new team, plays till his peak is over and the club moves him for a huge profit and its back to square one. One of the main reasons that the player moves is also because his skill level has increased, with his current team unable to match the winning desire/skill and cannot stay at his current club forcing said current club to sell him for a profit rather than lose him for free

It's the same in this game. A skilled player will want to keep on improving and climb up the clan battle leagues and finally reach the final level of being hurricane consistently. If you want to keep skilled players in your clan, you must make sure that everyone who plays clan battles are also improving simultaneously with the best player so they can atleast keep up with the competition. It will be a long road, but if you consistently keep on improving then it shouldn't be a problem to keep hold of talent unless there are other issues within the clan.

I started out in a squall league clan, and most of my clan members had a PR below 1000. At that time I was a potato and had no idea of PR, or win rate or anything. I just played, watched videos and started getting better eventually. I got my squall clan to gale league and that was where I parted ways as my clan had reached a roadblock which we were unable to overcome as my clan members didn't improve. I joined a storm clan after and after a couple of seasons I switched to a typhoon clan and made them hurricane. There is no logical reason why a skilled player will want to stay in a lower league clan unless its just for fun. If that player is competitive then he will surely move up the clans till he hits his skill level. Thats the way everything works. Every player irrespective of video game or real life sports has a skill ceiling and once he reaches it thats the maximum best he can give it. The only way to move forward from that is either stay on that skill or a declining trend begins.

As for the best clans playing average clans I dont think that happens often enough to become an issue. Thats only an issue on the first week of clan battle season as all the clans are within 2 leagues of each other as the clans start out in either gale or squall league based on the standings from the previous season. As clan battle matchmaking is, teams can be matched within the higher league or lower league too. Once the better clans start moving to typhoon and hurricane I doubt you'll see unicum clans playing with average clans.

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1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

There is a reason why professional sports have a draft and that is to ensure that all teams have an equal chance of getting good players. This is done because eventually people would tire of watching if one team was rich enough to hire all of the best players and thus dominate the sport year after year. The way Clan Battles are set up in WOWS allows a clan consisting of the very best players in the game to compete with clans consisting of average players. Average clans may never become competitive if they can't recruit better players or if the players they have don't get better organically.

i know that in US some sports use draft system. But most sports around the world dont use. 

1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

Another problem with Clan Battles is that many clans are either to small or too disorganized to participate or would like to participate but have members from around the globe who can't schedule the same playing time.  In other multiplayer games I've played there were semi-permanent "ranks" that allowed players to get at least a general idea of how good or how experienced another player was. Players could then host games stipulating that only certain ranks be allowed. There also was a selection for random games to exclude players either much better or much worse than yourself in order to make the match more competitive.

 I realize that the Training Room can be set up to do something similar to this but without knowing the players personally it's difficult to know how good they are beforehand. Whatever happened to Team Battles? Could they not be re-instituted and set up with a skill-based matchmaker? Or is WG afraid that this would remove the better players from Randoms and cause problems there?

This is a hard disscussion, from one side, no one is stopping any player from improving and get into good teams. But i also understand that it can be frustrating to face a team of unicums. Also, depends on the interest of the clan you are in, you dont need to have unicum players to get to high legues in CBs its possible to do that with good players well organised. 

 

The difference from WoWs to other games is that other games usually have competitive game modes (ranked game mode) which hav skill based MM but still allows players to play  alone or with a small group of friends. WoWs doenst have anything like that. 

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1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

The way Clan Battles are set up in WOWS allows a clan consisting of the very best players in the game to compete with clans consisting of average players.

While at the beginning, high level clans can face clans that won't make it out of gale, once a clan reaches typhoon or hurricane, they will very rarely play any clan below storm (maybe 1 battle in 15 to 20)  

 

1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

Average clans may never become competitive if they can't recruit better players or if the players they have don't get better organically.

This is how clans go from casual to competitve. They get better internally and recruit better players. However, you shouldn't exactly expect unicum players to constantly flock to your doorstep unless you are a top 10-5 clan. 

1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

Another problem with Clan Battles is that many clans are either to small or too disorganized to participate

If you are have these sort of problems you very well may need to have a merger with another clan that is having the same problems, or with a larger clan entity. I was part of a clan merger and it was probably the best decision I've made in this game. 

1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

Or is WG afraid that this would remove the better players from Randoms and cause problems there?

If there was skilled based mm then the ~50% wr players would complain when they got a ~45% wr player on their team. The ~55% wr player would complain about the ~50% wr player and so on.

2 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

Exactly, each clan can have their own interest and/or background (although my comments made specifically revolve around those who are good at Clan Battles because that was the OPs topic).

While having good stats in certain ships and wanting to win is a requirement for high level clans, they still have common interests and communicate very frequently throughout the week. 

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Why is this a problem? Works great for random games.

Edited by Learux

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2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

There is a reason why professional sports have a draft and that is to ensure that all teams have an equal chance of getting good players. This is done because eventually people would tire of watching if one team was rich enough to hire all of the best players and thus dominate the sport year after year. The way Clan Battles are set up in WOWS allows a clan consisting of the very best players in the game to compete with clans consisting of average players. Average clans may never become competitive if they can't recruit better players or if the players they have don't get better organically.

Another problem with Clan Battles is that many clans are either to small or too disorganized to participate or would like to participate but have members from around the globe who can't schedule the same playing time.  In other multiplayer games I've played there were semi-permanent "ranks" that allowed players to get at least a general idea of how good or how experienced another player was. Players could then host games stipulating that only certain ranks be allowed. There also was a selection for random games to exclude players either much better or much worse than yourself in order to make the match more competitive.

 I realize that the Training Room can be set up to do something similar to this but without knowing the players personally it's difficult to know how good they are beforehand. Whatever happened to Team Battles? Could they not be re-instituted and set up with a skill-based matchmaker? Or is WG afraid that this would remove the better players from Randoms and cause problems there?

The problem with your analogy is that you are trying to equate the whole player base to MLB. 

Change your analogy to hurricane level teams are the MLB and that typhoon and lower are the minor leagues and beer leagues and senior softball leagues. 

No MLB player wants to be saddled with a senior softball player, nor should they be. 

Edited by Ducky_shot
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1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

There is a reason why professional sports have a draft and that is to ensure that all teams have an equal chance of getting good players. This is done because eventually people would tire of watching if one team was rich enough to hire all of the best players and thus dominate the sport year after year. The way Clan Battles are set up in WOWS allows a clan consisting of the very best players in the game to compete with clans consisting of average players. Average clans may never become competitive if they can't recruit better players or if the players they have don't get better organically.

Another problem with Clan Battles is that many clans are either to small or too disorganized to participate or would like to participate but have members from around the globe who can't schedule the same playing time.  In other multiplayer games I've played there were semi-permanent "ranks" that allowed players to get at least a general idea of how good or how experienced another player was. Players could then host games stipulating that only certain ranks be allowed. There also was a selection for random games to exclude players either much better or much worse than yourself in order to make the match more competitive.

 I realize that the Training Room can be set up to do something similar to this but without knowing the players personally it's difficult to know how good they are beforehand. Whatever happened to Team Battles? Could they not be re-instituted and set up with a skill-based matchmaker? Or is WG afraid that this would remove the better players from Randoms and cause problems there?

To answer you're question in one's opinion. Its not WG that is the problem but the player's. You have what you have now which is a huge offset in skilled base teams out there that is caused by player/s with good skills sticking together to control the outcome in battles much like they did in WOT with controlling the map. Then you have average and below scrambling to get what they can. Player's wont admit to it but they also will go in and out of smaller clans doing decent to grab upcoming players that show potential to bring up and those who will do anything to join that clan for status. 

Most like to blame the game developer but the truth is the problem comes from the mentally  of the player base itself.

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1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

There is a reason why professional sports have a draft and that is to ensure that all teams have an equal chance of getting good players. This is done because eventually people would tire of watching if one team was rich enough to hire all of the best players and thus dominate the sport year after year. The way Clan Battles are set up in WOWS allows a clan consisting of the very best players in the game to compete with clans consisting of average players. Average clans may never become competitive if they can't recruit better players or if the players they have don't get better organically.

Another problem with Clan Battles is that many clans are either to small or too disorganized to participate or would like to participate but have members from around the globe who can't schedule the same playing time.  In other multiplayer games I've played there were semi-permanent "ranks" that allowed players to get at least a general idea of how good or how experienced another player was. Players could then host games stipulating that only certain ranks be allowed. There also was a selection for random games to exclude players either much better or much worse than yourself in order to make the match more competitive.

 I realize that the Training Room can be set up to do something similar to this but without knowing the players personally it's difficult to know how good they are beforehand. Whatever happened to Team Battles? Could they not be re-instituted and set up with a skill-based matchmaker? Or is WG afraid that this would remove the better players from Randoms and cause problems there?

The draft while in theory is as you stated. It is used however as a bargaining chip for teams and a platform to free agent as a player. There is a reason that there are consistent top teams in most all sports at the competitive level. It has absolutely little to do with money but rather individuals mindset.  Everything @CV_Jeebies is pointing out is spot on correct. You could never take a handful of the so called "ringers" and put them into a lower level clan or vice versa. No one would be happy and content with the outcomes. 

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5 minutes ago, eagle_lance said:

While having good stats in certain ships and wanting to win is a requirement for high level clans, they still have common interests and communicate very frequently throughout the week. 

Yes, I'm sure most of them are human; as stated before, I centred my answer about those that are good at Clan Battles as this was the OPs main topic. :Smile_honoring:

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25 minutes ago, CV_Jeebies said:

Clans form for any number or reasons with any number of goals.  Some may form because they're veterans, some my form because they're fire fighters or EMTs, while others form to be competitive -- some just form to get the benefits of the port.  We've got all types of folks in our clans, and many are now friends.  Not all veterans want to be competitive, not all fire fighters want to be competitive --- as such organizing under a social identity makes for less than stellar competitive play.  Those who are part of those groups that want to be competitive aren't restricting themselves to tribal groups primarily.  They're in competitive clans.  There's nothing wrong with social clans -- but to get a social clan to turn competitive when members didn't really join for such is an uphill battle.   To believe that a social clan that collects a particular tribal group has a better "identity" or whatever you'd like to call it, over one that organizes around being competitive, well that's hilarious.  One might confuse that for making excuses while existing in mediocrity.....

So much this. The top clans in the game are those that have formed around skill in the game. Clans that form around anything other than skill in the game aren't skilled enough to compete at a high level. 

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I've always thought we should have 24/7 team battle play. ( cross clan even )

Create a pool of players looking for a team.

Example...

Make it 7 vs 7...perhaps I have 4 clan members wanting to play team, but we need 3 more ?

Dip into the pool of players looking for a team and 3 from the pool can join. It has great social aspects too.

Perhaps you meet a new player who would be great for your clan ??

Make new friends...ect.

You could do this for all tiers...or tiers 6 and up.

Random is so ghetto...it's frustrating.  Everyone has different agenda's ....accomplishing missions, goals...ect. Winning isn't everyone's highest priority...maybe just setting fires is...ect.

 

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3 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

This still doesn't prevent clans from excluding all but the best players and thus dominating Clan Battles. It's sort of lame if a clan fills itself full of "ringers" and then goes out and stomps all of the more organic clans.

That's why there are two ratings Alpha and Bravo, one for the A team and one for everyone else.

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3 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

There is a reason why professional sports have a draft and that is to ensure that all teams have an equal chance of getting good players. This is done because eventually people would tire of watching if one team was rich enough to hire all of the best players and thus dominate the sport year after year.

I take it you're not very familiar with the most popular sport in the world?

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This is always the way of clan/guild battles in any game...    CB always starts off with a diverse talent pool...   As better players become known they tend to congregate to fewer and fewer clans, because they want to win.   The older the game, the more concentrated the successful players..   Happens in every game I was ever a part of.   

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