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IfYouSeeKhaos

45 second (adjustable) timer delay for plane boost at battle start to lessen early spotting?

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In the Q & A about CC thread (presently in the WG staff posts above...comment #36...didn't want to derail that thread so starting a new 1 here)@LittleWhiteMousementioned a conversation (debate?) w/ @Sub_Octavianabout plane spotting changes where Sub replied it would require adding more complex systems to the game that a new spotting system might entail.

This idea doesn't add any complex systems to the game but just puts a timer on the already existing system (please see note later about my lack of dev knowledge to know/not know just how complex this idea may actually be to implement).

I know there was a 45 second plane launch delay that was suggested back in the day that of course went over like a Led Zepplin (as nobody wants to twiddle their thumbs for 45 seconds before starting to play...understandable) that never went live but I was thinking of maybe a 45 second timer before being able to use the plane boost at the start of a match.

CV players would still be able to launch right away so they aren't sitting idle at start & it wouldn't handle all of the spotting issues of CVs throughout the battle but would give ships a chance to get into better positions (DDs closer to caps w/CLs/CAs time to close in & back them up...BB able to close in a little more to support & CVs a chance to get to cover in case of an 899 scenario [which I believe was just a novely...although quite an ammusing 1...& has nothing to do w/this idea as I had this idea months ago]) before CVs started their holy reign of spotting terror.

Was thinking it could be adjusted from as low as 30 seconds to 50 seconds (or whatever for balance) between different nations as an extra perk to balance different nations CVs.

(This next part is not part of original idea...just thought of this while typing---->) It might even be able to be implemented for each take off not just at start (but w/a much shorter timer after the 1st time...balance as you see fit if you decide to go w/this) as a way to highlight balancing it between nations. (Please note...I am not suggesting any delays in plane launching...just a timer on being able to use the plane boost consumable after the plane is launched). Edit: Another thought just occured related to this variation idea...if timers are added after 1st lauch it will start counting down immediately after last squadron is either completely eliminated or immediately after the F button is chosen so if a player decides to move the ship instead of going right back into another squadron there is no/less delay on being able to use the boost when next squad is finally launched & (another new thought) the last gasp commander skill can lessen/cancel it out if taken.

I'm not a programmer so even though something that "seems" like an easy concept ("its just adding a timer" they said..."it will be so easy" they said) I won't pretend to be 1 of those people that understand how much work it would take...just a suggestion as a concept to maybe help lessen some of the "CVs are OP" threads about spotting.

Wouldn't mind some feedback from you 2 specifically (as you both have more insight into the mechanics involved w/whether it would or wouldn't work than the average poster...although comments from others would be appreciated...even if just to tell me to stop wasting forum space on stupid ideas) on why it is a bad idea if it is but realize you are both busy so won't be upset if none is forthcoming (-: especially if you decide this is such an awesome idea that implementing it immediately is more important than replying...I'd get that :-)

 

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos
To put Sub's actual reply as opposed to my misquoted 1 I originally had & the whole 2nd paragraph added
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The delay was tried on the PT and it was found that it had no real impact beyond letting the charge ahead players get even farther from any AA help.

 

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Some people here like to lambaste "the spreadsheet," actual player data, and statistics but in doing so they only show their ignorance. If it were not for science, Americans would probably now be sacrificing 40,000 young women a month to the blood god in order to stop the pandemic. The developers of the game have all the player data available to them. They are working with what is rather than with what is desired by a certain clique of players.

Edited by Snargfargle
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50 minutes ago, kishan99 said:

i would just get rid of speed boost. 

Awesome.

Destroyers wouldn’t be able to rush forward so quickly they become easy pickings for carriers.

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50 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

The delay was tried on the PT and it was found that it had no real impact beyond letting the charge ahead players get even farther from any AA help.

Thanx for clarifying...will edit to remove extra unneeded clutter in already lengthy rambling :-)

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1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

Some people here like to lambaste "the spreadsheet," actual player data, and statistics but in doing so they only show their ignorance. If it were not for science, Americans would probably now be sacrificing 40,000 young women a month to the blood god in order to stop the pandemic. The developers of the game have all the player data available to them. They are working with what is rather than with what is desired by a certain clique of players.

1st of all stop throwing virus examples in your comments...going tastelessly off topic is the epitome of showing ignorance...not to mention boring as all hell.

2nd... I'm sure LWM & Sub_Oc will appreciate you referring to them as ignorant because the way the comment from LWM was worded she was the 1 suggesting CV spotting was a problem & Sub didn't deny it (in her story anyway...he didn't actually comment in the thread I was referring to***) but his only issue was "complex systems" required to handle the problem...but the fact CV spotting is a problem definitely seemed an agreed upon issue to both of them.

The "complex system" reference is what prompted me to post this thread as just adding a timer seemed like a not so complex solution to the problem...but my lack of developer knowledge disclaimer was added to clarify I don't know how complex it's implementation might actually be.

I'm not a CV ranter & many times have commented against the CV ranters in the same threads you do so save the "must defend any attacks against CVs because I'm mostly a CV main player (aka...a certain clique of players)" for actual CV rant threads & let a genuine CV balance thread be discussed w/actual input of data/ideas instead of personal attacks & virus analogies please. & by (the blood) god those young women better be virgins.

***That thread is presently easily accessible in the WG staff posts above & the comment was #36 in that thread.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos
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2 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

The delay was tried on the PT and it was found that it had no real impact beyond letting the charge ahead players get even farther from any AA help.

 

That was what a lot of us predicted,  that it would just make them more vulnerable since they'd be away from fleet support.  The problem is balancing it around all three levels of players: : The Good,  the bad,  and the mediocre.  The good players are already dealing with planes sufficiently,  a delay isn't going to change how they play.  The mediocre players are going to be able to deal with them effectively probably about 50% of the time depending on whether or not they get spotted,  and the bad players are just rushing into caps and getting lambasted.  Adding a delay changes it for the mediocre players,  giving them a longer time before they get spotted,  but does nothing for the other two levels of players.  

Spitballing ideas here,  but maybe they should try delayed spotting?  Where a plane spots the ships IMMEDIATELY as per the usual but it doesn't show up visually for other captains for ten seconds or so.  It gives the DD a grace period to get out of harms way of other ships armaments but doesn't completely invalidate CV spotting.  Just a thought.

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A 45 second delay or speed boost delay won't solve the CV spotting problems, but it would certainly help. 

Its not all about DDs, its about the overall impact to the game and other ship classes.  CVs counter everything and have no counter themselves.  Their most powerful weapon is spotting and WG has been loathe to actually address it other than to adjust the detection ranges of some ships in defiance of the laws of physics.

Relegate CV spotting to the mini-map only.   This is a nice simple change they could make and would go a LONG way to resolve the CV issues.

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5 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

going tastelessly off topic is the epitome of showing ignorance...not to mention boring as all hell.

Using an historic example to prove a point one is trying to make is not "going off topic." The point I was making, if it was not clear, was that too many discuss issues based on "feels" rather than on an analysis of the data pertaining to said issue. Some of the data for WOWS are available but WG has access to a whole lot more and I presume also has statisticians on staff who can properly analyze it. If you have ever taken a business statistics or calculus class then you will know that sometimes what you need to do to maximize profit margins may be counterintuitive to your customers. Also, while it oftentimes is in a business's best interest to keep the customer happy, this is not its primary goal. The primary goal of business is sustainable profit. If unhappy customers generate more sustainable profit then happiness be damned where business is concerned. Of course, some people are happiest when they have something to complain about too.

Edited by Snargfargle
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All the complaning about CV is way over blown.  

I am going up the German crusier line not known for it AA.  Half the games in the past few days had a cv in it, one game had 2 cv in it.

I was running prem DF and then took it off and went to sonar.  Why?  Because I was never attacked.

There was only one match I wish I had the prem because I had to attack the cv but othere than that one I barly got hit. 

I am guessing that most people never get attacked.  Yes there is that one game that you get attacked but for the most part its in your head.

 

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I'm frankly surprised in  testing the launch delay was not approved?  I'd like to hear from a STer why if they are able?  All I remember was a Sub_O statement that they didn't like how it performed?      In RTS CVs,  there was a load time for planes just like all other ships?  I have feeling it made CVs dreadfully boring for 1st bit of game, at a time when WG was eager to improve CV pops.  Plus if you will remember it was tetsed at the time the AA was overtuned and CV numbers dropped off the map.     I doubt its effect would be that great now,  but would probably allow a bit of early re-positioning for DDs?  Though...it is going to be a lot harder on the yolo potatoes as they will get even deeper into trouble before being  initially spotted.     In reality it's implementation would be consistent with other ships in game that start with ordinance unloaded.   And for CV fans this would also put a bit more of a buffer for the 899 spawnpeek worries at T8.   

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9 hours ago, kishan99 said:

i would just get rid of speed boost. 

Ever play Ark Royal? 

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6 hours ago, iRA6E said:

I'm frankly surprised in  testing the launch delay was not approved?  I'd like to hear from a STer why if they are able?  All I remember was a Sub_O statement that they didn't like how it performed?      In RTS CVs,  there was a load time for planes just like all other ships?  I have feeling it made CVs dreadfully boring for 1st bit of game, at a time when WG was eager to improve CV pops.  Plus if you will remember it was tetsed at the time the AA was overtuned and CV numbers dropped off the map.     I doubt its effect would be that great now,  but would probably allow a bit of early re-positioning for DDs?  Though...it is going to be a lot harder on the yolo potatoes as they will get even deeper into trouble before being  initially spotted.     In reality it's implementation would be consistent with other ships in game that start with ordinance unloaded.   And for CV fans this would also put a bit more of a buffer for the 899 spawnpeek worries at T8.   

By the time the CV's planes get close enough to attack something even the BB's will have been loaded for some time

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the plane delay was literally just delaying the problem that is no fix just another lazy attempt by wargaming.

Just now, iRA6E said:

And for CV fans this would also put a bit more of a buffer for the 899 spawnpeek worries at T8. 

i thoroughly encourage more players to get musashis to snipe cv welcome to counterplay, just dodge 4Head

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Just now, jags_domain said:

All the complaning about CV is way over blown.  

I am going up the German crusier line not known for it AA.  Half the games in the past few days had a cv in it, one game had 2 cv in it.

I was running prem DF and then took it off and went to sonar.  Why?  Because I was never attacked.

There was only one match I wish I had the prem because I had to attack the cv but othere than that one I barly got hit. 

I am guessing that most people never get attacked.  Yes there is that one game that you get attacked but for the most part its in your head.

 

you were lucky there are no intelligent cv players anymore, german cruisers are a free snack for ap bombs

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29 minutes ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

you were lucky there are no intelligent cv players anymore, german cruisers are a free snack for ap bombs

Good you can insult people you dont know and did not see what is going on.

But go ahead try and shame people.

Good luck.

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1 hour ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

the plane delay was literally just delaying the problem that is no fix just another lazy attempt by wargaming.

i thoroughly encourage more players to get musashis to snipe cv welcome to counterplay, just dodge 4Head

ITZ_ACE encouraging the playing of CVs!    CV Fans salute you!    

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A better change would be borrowing from the Radar mechanic (although Radar still needs to be fixed to not ignore LoS).


CV spotting:
1.)For the first 10s once planes spot an enemy vessel, the vessel ONLY shows on the minimap for the team of that CV. After that, full spot sharing ensues.
and
2.) CV spot sharing cannot occur through environmental collision objects (e.g. Islands).

This in turn would make CVs have to choose between "loitering" to keep targets spotted for the team, and actual attacking. 

Edited by Varknyn12

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CVs are totally fine as is.

DDs should only ever hug cruisers or the back line of the map.

Never, ever should a DD ever go out and spot. Or torp. Or put gunfire on anything.

This is how to play a DD with CVs in game.

It's fun. It's engaging. It's profitable.

It's full of win.

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1 hour ago, jags_domain said:

Good you can insult people you dont know and did not see what is going on.

But go ahead try and shame people.

Good luck.

He wasn't insulting/shaming you...just stating facts of German cruisers (& BBs)...they are particularly fragile to AP bombs...their armor eats AP bomb citadels.

He's not saying you are a bad player by saying you were lucky...it's not like you said you dodged CV attacks in mass & him suggesting your dodging is actually bad because the CV player was a noob...you said the CVs were just ignoring you (except 1 battle) & he was saying you were lucky there wasn't a bunch of CV players w/AP bombs that knew how fragile your German cruiser was to them or you wouldn't have been ignored so much but instead would have been harassed relentlessly...if you were off on your own anyway.

That's what I got from his comment anyway...don't think he was trying to insult you there.

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2 hours ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

the plane delay was literally just delaying the problem that is no fix just another lazy attempt by wargaming.

i thoroughly encourage more players to get musashis to snipe cv welcome to counterplay, just dodge 4Head

Was fun to watch as a novelty but now that it's more known about even noob CVs can be warned by their teams to head to cover immediately instead of staying still at game start (the only players really victims to the 899).

Actually bringing 2 Musashis into a CV battle is giving the reds CV a free lunch of 2 easy BB kills (especially as the CV's fighter consumable can't protect them both very well & most teams aren't going to hang back to cover 2 BBs hanging way back using spotters to try to snipe the red CV...& if they fail they are easy prey as they don't have diddly squat for AA).

Not to mention if they just take most of the red CVs HP & that CV has Adrenalin Rush...they have just screwed their whole team.

The other problem is when the 899 is successful it just leaves an unopposed CV against a team w/no CV spotting advantage...not bad if the 899 is on your side but you won't be laughing so hard if your teams CV gets 899ed.

In other words...if it was a comeuppance for all CVs in general it would be more fun than just another way for good CV players to easily eliminate the noobs & widen the gap...but at least if the 899 fails it ends up giving the other team the advantage so I fully support it screwing over the 899 CV in those scenarios...lol.

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Plane delay was removed because a DD went to a cap and the CV immediately to the cap with the DD. 

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8 hours ago, iRA6E said:

I'm frankly surprised in  testing the launch delay was not approved?  I'd like to hear from a STer why if they are able?

 

17 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

The delay was tried on the PT and it was found that it had no real impact beyond letting the charge ahead players get even farther from any AA help.

Answered by a ST before you asked iRA6E.

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