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jags_domain

Yorck and Hipper seem to de redundant.

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Got back to Yorck, that they finaly fixed and its basicly better than Hipper because of MM.

Aside from a .5 faster reload and 2mm of armor there the same.  

Is there somthing WG could do to make them a bit more different?

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1 minute ago, jags_domain said:

Got back to Yorck, that they finaly fixed and its basicly better than Hipper because of MM.

Aside from a .5 faster reload and 2mm of armor there the same.  

Is there somthing WG could do to make them a bit more different?

Hipper has the same guns as Hindy, much easier to hit things with at range. Hipper has better AA as well.

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Hipper has far better armor, better guns, far better shells and better AA. Hipper makes Yorck look like a T6.

Edited by Lert
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18 minutes ago, Lert said:

Hipper has far better armor, better guns, far better shells and better AA. Hipper makes Yorck look like a T6.

All true but don't sleep on the Yorck, it's a pretty good ship.

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2 minutes ago, Dr_Powderfinger said:

All true but don't sleep on the Yorck, it's a pretty good ship.

She can be, but to me the jump from Yorck to Hippie is .... significant.

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32 minutes ago, jags_domain said:

Got back to Yorck, that they finaly fixed and its basicly better than Hipper because of MM.

Aside from a .5 faster reload and 2mm of armor there the same.  

Is there somthing WG could do to make them a bit more different?

Yorck has 210mm guns and much better HE than other German CAs. She is also much more fragile than Hipper, but she is very maneuverable to compensate. Unfortunately the turret traverse is slow, meaning you have to be careful not to out-turn your turrets.

Hipper is more in line with the rest of branch. She is much tankier than Yorck, especially at medium-to-close ranges. Her HE is more in line with the rest of the ships in the line - consistent due to 50mm of pen but low alpha. Her AP is monstrous though, and the guns reward proper ammo selection more than many other CAs.

I still have both ships in my port, and while Yorck is a lot of fun, Hipper was a noticeable upgrade for me. In fact, the only reason I no longer play Hipper regularly is because I picked up Prinz Eugen last summer, and she’s a better ship. A heal with that armor profile is just glorious.

Edited by Nevermore135

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I really liked the t5-6. yorck was a grind. Loved Hipper, Roon, and Hindy

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3 minutes ago, wstugamd said:

I really liked the t5-6. yorck was a grind. Loved Hipper, Roon, and Hindy

Its a very sold line.

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I seem to be the other way around of most people here, I enjoyed Yorck much more than Hipper, Roon was the breath of fresh air for me.

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2 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

Yorck has 210mm guns and much better HE than other German CAs. She is also much more fragile than Hipper, but she is very maneuverable to compensate. Unfortunately the turret traverse is slow, meaning you have to be careful not to out-turn your turrets.

Hipper is more in line with the rest of branch. She is much tankier than Yorck, especially at medium-to-close ranges. Her HE is more in line with the rest of the ships in the line - consistent due to 50mm of pen but low alpha. Her AP is monstrous though, and the guns reward proper ammo selection more than many other CAs.

I still have both ships in my port, and while Yorck is a lot of fun, Hipper was a noticeable upgrade for me. In fact, the only reason I no longer play Hipper regularly is because I picked up Prinz Eugen last summer, and she’s a better ship. A heal with that armor profile is just glorious.

I get what you’re saying about the Hipper, but I still have a negative disposition towards her because I got detonated three battles in a row in her. 

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Personally, I'd always pick Yorck over Hipper. Yorck is a solid ship, tier for tier she is hands down better than Hipper. The armor on both ships are hit and miss, though Yorck is more maneuverable and has a slimmer profile meaning you'll get lucky bounces/misses more often than hipper/Eugen(though I'd never count on it for either of them). The turtleback on both really sucks, sure it'll stop light cruisers and destroyers but heavy cruiser and battleship AP(depending on angle as with all armor) will punch through both with ease. Also, Yorck being tier 7 vs hipper being tier 8 is a big deal when you have two ships with similar capabilities.

The only reason I'd say to play hipper is to get Roon and Hindenberg(though more Roon, if you liked Nurnberg/Konigsberg kiting play style). On a side note, for me Tier 8 has always been a trouble spot for Germany, not bad but the tier's before and after tend to be better(except BB's and Tirpitz, can't speak on Prinz Eugen cause I've never played her but she's basically hipper with a heal(and a few other differences in stats) so I'd say she's not much better).

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2mm of armor may seem meaningless, but with how the game works, 25mm is vastly inferior to 27mm.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_thresholds#AP_overmatch

 

Hipper is significantly better armored than Yorck.

Hipper by virtue of having CSM1 access as a Tier VIII, is also stealthier than Yorck by a whole kilometer when both are using Stealth Build.

--- Alternatively, you may not care for CSM1 / Stealth Build at all, you can slot SGM2 and do the "Double Rudder Build" and reduce Hipper's Rudder Shift Time to 5.5 seconds.

-- Yorck doesn't have any of those two options at all, she doesn't have access to Slot 5 for CSM1 / SGM2 upgrades.

Hipper has vastly superior turret traverse:  22.5 seconds vs Yorck's 34.62 seconds.  When you're out there sailing defensively, Hipper's turrets track targets much more easily.

Hipper has a better AA suite.

Hipper also naturally has more HP.

 

But it's the aforementioned protection that really sets Hipper apart from Yorck, it sets the tone of what follows in the rest of the German Cruisers that follow her.

Yorck is coated in 25mm all over the place.  380mm+ AP will Overmatch and Pen her at any angle.  She has an 80mm belt armor.

qCNS2Dc.jpg

 

Below is Hipper.  Her bow, deck, upper belt armor are all 27mm, so she can play games against 381mm or smaller AP and bounce them.  In the tier bracket that Yorck and Hipper belong to, they see a lot of 380 / 381mm armed Battleships, from Bayern in Tier VI all the way thru to Jean Bart and Alsace in Tier IX.

Hipper also has that 27mm torpedo bulge with her 80mm belt armor still behind that, as well as the angled deck behind that as well to help protect the Citadel.

nyHa0L2.jpg

41WHJmV.jpg

 

Yorck below with the bow armor removed from view.  For a Tier VII Cruiser, Yorck actually tries to protect her Citadel quite well.  Same tier Myoko and New Orleans if caught in the side would instantly implode, but Yorck may survive.

os3gzmX.jpg

 

The issue for Yorck defensively isn't her Citadel protection, it's that she will at the very least, be eating lots of Penetration damage from 380mm+ AP shells due to being coated by 25mm armor.  There is no angle that will save Yorck from being Overmatched.  Angling, Bow On tactics, doesn't matter, once your armor is Overmatched, it doesn't matter anymore if you get hit.

 

Hipper can play with Angling & Bow On tactics depending on the threat, she can troll 381mm or smaller AP but 406mm+ AP will be a big concern.

 

Another defensive bonus for Hipper?  She has a 40mm icebreaker bow.  I refer you to the 2nd image shown, the dark orange on the bow around the waterline, that's the 40mm icebreaker.  If you compare how high it rises over the waterline, and compare it to the 3rd picture where you can see the forward citadel bulkhead, the citadel is protected by it.  A savvy German Cruiser player can knife fight even 510mm AP, angle, and use the 40mm icebreaker to protect the Citadel while charging the BB for a torpedo attack.  There is no AP that Overmatches 40mm.  The Battleship will have to settle for non-Citadel hits, and at close ranges, will be a bunch of Overpens, he'll get Penetration damage if he's lucky.

 

Yorck doesn't have these defensive features.  The gunnery, torpedo suite is close enough to Hipper.  She's a tad more agile than Hipper.  But Hipper is much better protected by a yoooge margin.

 

When I first ground the German Cruiser Line, both Yorck and Hipper were very good to me even as a newb scrub.  But Hipper was simply a much better ship defensively.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

When I first ground the German Cruiser Line, both Yorck and Hipper were very good to me even as a newb scrub.  But Hipper was simply a much better ship defensively.

Same. I really like, and do ok in, Yorck, but yeah, Hipper is a better ship. I enjoyed it so much I lost track of the grind, ended up accumulating half again enough XP to elite it.

 

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

2mm of armor may seem meaningless, but with how the game works, 25mm is vastly inferior to 27mm.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_thresholds#AP_overmatch

 

Hipper is significantly better armored than Yorck.

Hipper by virtue of having CSM1 access as a Tier VIII, is also stealthier than Yorck by a whole kilometer when both are using Stealth Build.

--- Alternatively, you may not care for CSM1 / Stealth Build at all, you can slot SGM2 and do the "Double Rudder Build" and reduce Hipper's Rudder Shift Time to 5.5 seconds.

-- Yorck doesn't have any of those two options at all, she doesn't have access to Slot 5 for CSM1 / SGM2 upgrades.

Hipper has vastly superior turret traverse:  22.5 seconds vs Yorck's 34.62 seconds.  When you're out there sailing defensively, Hipper's turrets track targets much more easily.

Hipper has a better AA suite.

Hipper also naturally has more HP.

 

But it's the aforementioned protection that really sets Hipper apart from Yorck, it sets the tone of what follows in the rest of the German Cruisers that follow her.

Yorck is coated in 25mm all over the place.  380mm+ AP will Overmatch and Pen her at any angle.  She has an 80mm belt armor.

qCNS2Dc.jpg

 

Below is Hipper.  Her bow, deck, upper belt armor are all 27mm, so she can play games against 381mm or smaller AP and bounce them.  In the tier bracket that Yorck and Hipper belong to, they see a lot of 380 / 381mm armed Battleships, from Bayern in Tier VI all the way thru to Jean Bart and Alsace in Tier IX.

Hipper also has that 27mm torpedo bulge with her 80mm belt armor still behind that, as well as the angled deck behind that as well to help protect the Citadel.

nyHa0L2.jpg

41WHJmV.jpg

 

Yorck below with the bow armor removed from view.  For a Tier VII Cruiser, Yorck actually tries to protect her Citadel quite well.  Same tier Myoko and New Orleans if caught in the side would instantly implode, but Yorck may survive.

os3gzmX.jpg

 

The issue for Yorck defensively isn't her Citadel protection, it's that she will at the very least, be eating lots of Penetration damage from 380mm+ AP shells due to being coated by 25mm armor.  There is no angle that will save Yorck from being Overmatched.  Angling, Bow On tactics, doesn't matter, once your armor is Overmatched, it doesn't matter anymore if you get hit.

 

Hipper can play with Angling & Bow On tactics depending on the threat, she can troll 381mm or smaller AP but 406mm+ AP will be a big concern.

 

Another defensive bonus for Hipper?  She has a 40mm icebreaker bow.  I refer you to the 2nd image shown, the dark orange on the bow around the waterline, that's the 40mm icebreaker.  If you compare how high it rises over the waterline, and compare it to the 3rd picture where you can see the forward citadel bulkhead, the citadel is protected by it.  A savvy German Cruiser player can knife fight even 510mm AP, angle, and use the 40mm icebreaker to protect the Citadel while charging the BB for a torpedo attack.  There is no AP that Overmatches 40mm.  The Battleship will have to settle for non-Citadel hits, and at close ranges, will be a bunch of Overpens, he'll get Penetration damage if he's lucky.

 

Yorck doesn't have these defensive features.  The gunnery, torpedo suite is close enough to Hipper.  She's a tad more agile than Hipper.  But Hipper is much better protected by a yoooge margin.

 

When I first ground the German Cruiser Line, both Yorck and Hipper were very good to me even as a newb scrub.  But Hipper was simply a much better ship defensively.

Thank you for that in-depth view.

I got through Yorck in 1 day.  I do very well in Hipper.  One mission in and the turrets are fast.  The reload seems aloy faster than .5

I will be doing double rudder because 12.3 is fine for stealth.

Cany belive I got through Yorck so fast.  Its my second time redoing the line for RB points while I still have prem time.

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3 hours ago, UltimateNewbie said:

I get what you’re saying about the Hipper, but I still have a negative disposition towards her because I got detonated three battles in a row in her. 

I will never buy the Perth because I made it go boom

I just started playing this game. I was in my Pency and all 10 shells hit him with alot of cite.

Went from full to port.

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Hipper's 40mm icebreaker that covers the entire bow is the main reason why I liked Hipper more than Eugen, since Eugen's doesn't.  Nothing like charging a Yamato alongside a friendly Bismarck and another BB.  A little throttle juking to kinda throw off aim, and I only had to be concerned if dispersion caused a shell or 2 to hit high where it could overmatch.  And then there was that Richelieu, parked broadside while I rushed him bow on.  That guy was raging in chat about his shells not doing anything.  And then he got a point blank torp salvo.

But Yorck is not to be underestimated either, she will pull off her share of surprises.  When her forward plating was still 19mm (or 16mm?), but her upper belt was 25mm, I angled and rushed a Lyon who gave me all 16 barrels of AP, right into my angled belt and I bounced the entire salvo.  That player got 6 torps for their troubles.

I digress.  I enjoyed both ships, though I think overall, I did better in Yorck, due to MM.  T7 was still the king back then.

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12 hours ago, jags_domain said:

Thank you for that in-depth view.

I got through Yorck in 1 day.  I do very well in Hipper.  One mission in and the turrets are fast.  The reload seems aloy faster than .5

I will be doing double rudder because 12.3 is fine for stealth.

Cany belive I got through Yorck so fast.  Its my second time redoing the line for RB points while I still have prem time.

That's the nice thing with High Tier ships.  The extra upgrade slots give options to not only improve, but specialize a ship's capabilities to one's liking.

 

Hipper treated me so well when I worked that line the first time, that when Prinz Eugen came out, I snatched her up on day 1.  This was all before German Cruisers got the HE Pen buff, before Hipper-class got the 27mm bow.

 

Your prior game experience, experience with that line itself, is making things a lot smoother.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Hipper is notoriously bad, it's a bit of a mystery why other German cruisers were buffed so much and Hipper wasn't touched. Tier 8s still have significant advantages over tier 7s, but you're comparing a good ship to one of the worst.

18 hours ago, Lert said:

Hipper has [...] better guns, far better shells

Not anymore, Yorck was massively buffed a year or so ago. The only things Hipper guns do better are turret traverse and AP dpm.

Edited by WernerHerzdog

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