Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
IpityU

The *only* thing wrong with CV; no dogfights

49 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

29
[DERE]
Members
34 posts
4,025 battles

There is much griping about CVs which - for the most part, is legit, but easily remedied.   The problem is that there was one *MAJOR* omission in the mode redesign - there is no longer air-to-air combat.  Planes are able to shoot ships with impunity; certainly aa fire plays a role, but there is no chance of any surprise or interception.    Imagine if a dd could take on a BB without having to worry that there is a red dd hiding in wait for him, or a CA a few km away who could take him out.    No such worry exists for aircraft.  This is absurd.

The one thing that would 'fix' CV in the game would be to allow for air-to-air combat so fighters could intercept when enemy aircraft are spotting/harassing, support ships who are well placed but vulnerable to aircraft, etc.   It is absurd that our aircraft cannot dogfight.   I know that this game is not built on real-world dynamics - but in most cases it at least *tries* to simulate something reasonably close to real world.  

No dogfighting is a blaring and absurd omission - one which would 'fix' the CV problem which has so many players upset.

Bring back air-to-air combat.  Problem solved.

Edited by IpityU
  • Funny 1
  • Boring 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,228
[SALVO]
Members
9,420 posts
6,928 battles

Oooh I like the idea of dogfights!!! It problably would be source of tears, curses and unparallel grief but it would be fun for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,365
[WPORT]
Members
11,541 posts
15,861 battles

We used to be able to have them, in RTS, before the "re-work".

Oh, it wouldn't be a "first-person-shooter" from the cockpit view. 
But we could command one or more fighter squadrons to "go here" and to "shoot that" and they could get in to "furballs" with enemy fighter squadrons that would last until all the planes of one of the participating squadrons were destroyed.  In other words, once in a furball, we couldn't dis-engage until the fight was over. 
It was a game mechanic.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,539
[BNKR]
[BNKR]
Members
2,882 posts
2,681 battles

Not really.  It'll be like the old RTS system where the better player effectively deplaned the opposing CV and has air superiority for the rest of the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
912 posts
14,779 battles

SO you have the same problem. One CV driver is better than the other. He shoots down all the planes, then farms the red team. Sounds like a typical CV interaction to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,264
[PSP]
[PSP]
Members
15,698 posts

Back in the early 90s I played a carrier game where you flew planes in a first-person view. There were no aim assists -- you used representations of the actual gun sights that the WWII pilots used. You even took off and landed on the carrier, which took some skill with the joystick and keyboard controls. Of course, the planes also had guns so you could either defend against enemy fighters or play a fighter yourself. How well your squadron did depended on how well you did, with a little RNG thrown in for realism. I wish WOWS had something like this. I don't see why it couldn't as WG owns the code to WOWP.

Edited by Snargfargle
  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,012
[SALVO]
Members
26,698 posts
32,031 battles
59 minutes ago, IpityU said:

There is much griping about CVs which - for the most part, is legit, but easily remedied.   The problem is that there was one *MAJOR* omission in the mode redesign - there is no longer air-to-air combat.  Planes are able to shoot ships with impunity; certainly aa fire plays a role, but there is no chance of any surprise or interception.    Now imagine if a dd could take on a BB without having to worry that there is a red dd hiding in wait for him, or a CA a few km away who could take him out.    No such worry exists for aircraft.  This is absurd.

The one thing that would 'fix' CV in the game would be to allow for air-to-air combat so fighters could intercept when enemy aircraft are spotting/harassing, support ships who are well placed but vulnerable to aircraft, etc.   It is absurd that our aircraft cannot dogfight.   I know that this game is not built on real-world dynamics - but in most cases it at least *tries* to simulate something reasonably close to real world.  

No dogfighting is a blaring and absurd omission - one which would 'fix' the CV problem which has so many players upset.

Bring back air-to-air combat.  Problem solved.

No, it wouldn't fix CVs.  It'd make them worse.  Far, FAR worse, because suddenly it'd be back to what it was like with RTS CVs with fighter strafing where CV main unicums would simply delete a weaker player's planes from the sky and then have the entire map to himself.  

One of the most important points of the rework was to rebalance skill in carrier play.  This would completely mess that up.  So, no, they should NOT return air to air combat to CVs!!!

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,228
[SALVO]
Members
9,420 posts
6,928 battles
6 minutes ago, Crucis said:

No, it wouldn't fix CVs.  It'd make them worse.  Far, FAR worse, because suddenly it'd be back to what it was like with RTS CVs with fighter strafing where CV main unicums would simply delete a weaker player's planes from the sky and then have the entire map to himself.  

One of the most important points of the rework was to rebalance skill in carrier play.  This would completely mess that up.  So, no, they should NOT return air to air combat to CVs!!!

 

If you go by the "main directive" of the rework, fighters should be DOT also and more oriented to difficulting and messing up drops than to deplane the enemy CV. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
349 posts
12,693 battles
39 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

Back in the early 90s I played a carrier game where you flew planes in a first-person view. There were no aim assists -- you used representations of the actual gun sights that the WWII pilots used. You even took off and landed on the carrier, which took some skill with the joystick and keyboard controls. Of course, the planes also had guns so you could either defend against enemy fighters or play a fighter yourself. How well your squadron did depended on how well you did, with a little RNG thrown in for realism. I wish WOWS had something like this. I don't see why it couldn't as WG owns the code to WOWP.

Aces of the Pacific?

One of my all time favorite games! :Smile_smile:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,108
[FOXEH]
Banned
14,364 posts
21,597 battles

Fighters are a problem; they are a problem because they see enemy ships and every squadron adds to the spotting issue which is much higher on the priority list of most players than shooting down strike aircraft is. Rather than introducing, or re-introducing fighters, into the game, WG should instead just bring back the RTS system of AA, bring back the RTS DFAA, allow AA to be targetable again, and remove fighters all together. 

There are a lot of downsides to fighters. They spot, and spotting is a huge issue right now. They require the attention of the CV driver, who according to WG already has so many things to do that he can't even drive his own ship he's so busy. And they do no damage to ships, so why would they be included in a game about ship to ship combat?

Getting rid of fighters frees up carrier drivers from one more thing to worry about, it insures that fighters aren't being abused and being dropped on caps to spot enemy ships rather than perform their intended function of shooting down enemy planes, and it clears the way for AA to be the ONLY method of anti-air combat so that it can be brought back to something effective and not the lame joke it is now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,264
[PSP]
[PSP]
Members
15,698 posts
Just now, CFagan1987 said:

Aces of the Pacific?

One of my all time favorite games! :Smile_smile:

hqdefault.jpg

Yes, that looks like it! I agree, it was a really fun game.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,030
[WOLFG]
Members
34,394 posts
10,698 battles
46 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

Back in the early 90s I played a carrier game where you flew planes in a first-person view. There were no aim assists -- you used representations of the actual gun sights that the WWII pilots used. You even took off and landed on the carrier, which took some skill with the joystick and keyboard controls. Of course, the planes also had guns so you could either defend against enemy fighters or play a fighter yourself. How well your squadron did depended on how well you did, with a little RNG thrown in for realism. I wish WOWS had something like this. I don't see why it couldn't as WG owns the code to WOWP.

Actually, in one of Lesta's other games, Pacific Storm, you can take control of various positions on ships and planes.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29
[DERE]
Members
34 posts
4,025 battles
1 hour ago, Prothall said:

SO you have the same problem. One CV driver is better than the other. He shoots down all the planes, then farms the red team. Sounds like a typical CV interaction to me.

false narrative - in the rework CVs have unlimited planes.   Do not pass GO, do not collect $200

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,451
[IND8]
[IND8]
Members
1,350 posts
12,309 battles
1 hour ago, IpityU said:

false narrative - in the rework CVs have unlimited planes.   Do not pass GO, do not collect $200

False perception: CVs only have a number of planes equal to their starting number+the amount they can regenerate over 20 minutes. Their regeneration is limited by time, meaning it is possible to temporarily deplane a carrier, and once that happens, even though they are still regenerating, the squadrons they manage to deploy will have so few planes that no drop will get through aa.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
3,497 posts
6,951 battles
8 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

False perception: CVs only have a number of planes equal to their starting number+the amount they can regenerate over 20 minutes. Their regeneration is limited by time, meaning it is possible to temporarily deplane a carrier, and once that happens, even though they are still regenerating, the squadrons they manage to deploy will have so few planes that no drop will get through aa.

Been playing awhile, haven't really seen much deplaning.  I wouldn't be able to notice the slight delay that may be imposed by aircraft loss but i can't recall a CV not sending planes at me till the very end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,793
[CLUMP]
Members
2,065 posts
2,429 battles

Yeah but then it would no longer be a naval ship game now would it :Smile_amazed: If you want dogfights or pvp aircraft fights go to wowp :Smile_popcorn:Rather played ace combat though much better :Smile_hiding:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
420
[AAA]
Members
447 posts
17,986 battles

Saying CVs are balanced in their current iteration is just so silly. I guess it's entertaining for those who say it and constantly stalk the CV threads and know they will get a negative reaction. So boring.

It's really not even worth engaging these broken records.

Everyone knows CVs are not balanced and rocket planes are a huge issue.

The end.

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,264
[PSP]
[PSP]
Members
15,698 posts
1 hour ago, Lt_Newcastle said:

silly

So boring.

not even worth engaging

Everyone knows

huge issue.

The end

LOL, don't ever join a debate team. An eighth-grader would wipe the floor with you if you debated like that.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,030
[WOLFG]
Members
34,394 posts
10,698 battles
1 hour ago, CommodoreKang said:

Been playing awhile, haven't really seen much deplaning.  I wouldn't be able to notice the slight delay that may be imposed by aircraft loss but i can't recall a CV not sending planes at me till the very end.

No, but you've seen plenty of incomplete squadrons. Allow the other CV to actively pursue those incomplete squadrons, and you'll indeed see deplaning.

And since WG doesn't want that, player-controlled fighters are a non-starter.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12
[BGA]
Members
62 posts
6,302 battles

Play tier 10 for a while... Deplaning and incomplete squadrons are a normal thing... too many AA boats... too many AA buffs ... not worth it anymore 

  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
3,497 posts
6,951 battles
Just now, Skpstr said:

No, but you've seen plenty of incomplete squadrons. Allow the other CV to actively pursue those incomplete squadrons, and you'll indeed see deplaning.

And since WG doesn't want that, player-controlled fighters are a non-starter.

Oh sure.  You really can't fix the problems that CVs bring to the table.  As someone said, fighters also spot and so having fighters at all just exacerbates another one of the problems with CVs.

I guess the thought is that while planes aren't infinite.  To the targets of those planes they just seem to keep on coming.  No matter how many you shoot down.  And, at the point, where it's just a minimal squadron, my AA has been whittled down to a tickle and so it's kinda sorta still the same.  To the target.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,030
[WOLFG]
Members
34,394 posts
10,698 battles
13 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

  And, at the point, where it's just a minimal squadron, my AA has been whittled down to a tickle and so it's kinda sorta still the same. 

True, although anecdotally, what I find near the end of a match is that 2-4 planes come, and 0-2 survive to drop.

That's better than at the start of the match, where you take out 5+ planes, and still get hit with 1, possibly 2, full drops.

IMO, AA can work, it just depends on how good the CV player is. TBH, that's one thing about RTS AA, its effectiveness wasn't really affected by the CV player's skill. If I had my druthers, I'd see less damage from flak, and more from DPS.

 

Edited by Skpstr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
3,497 posts
6,951 battles
1 minute ago, Skpstr said:

True, although anecdotally, what I find near the end of a match is that 2-4 planes come, and 0-2 get to drop.

That's better than at the start of the match, where you take out 5+ planes, and still get hit with 1, possibly 2, full drops.

 

Right but it never stops.

And the only way to make it stop is to kill the CV.  And the CV can just keep getting his those little drops on me (which have all sorts of features programmed in for the CV to use to make sure he can). And I can't even begin the process of killing him until I find him, catch up with him, and spend 5 minutes he'ing him to death from range and watching any fires get immediately put out and all the other fun stuff involved in trying to bring a CVs health pool down to zero. 

And most likely he's got most of his health.  And I'm on a squiggle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×