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Sweetsie

A BB with SAP and smoke?

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Good idea? Or fringes of reality? It is being tested now... Could this lead to Blimps and Mustard gas?

Seriously, a Roma with SAP and Smoke. The Impero. Are we spinning out of control?

See the source image

 

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its also a Roma, so its gunners will still be incredibly drunk and overpen targets they hit when they are not.

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3 minutes ago, Joyous_Vibes said:

Good idea? Or fringes of reality? It is being tested now... Could this lead to Blimps and Mustard gas?

Seriously, a Roma with SAP and Smoke. The Impero. Are we spinning out of control?

See the source image

 

Just saw one in game.  He used the smoke to stop a air attack. Dont know what damage he did.

There is getting to be way to much smoke these days.

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“Fringes of reality?” To my understanding RM ships carried SAP shells. Italian HE on the Roma may be more fiction than the Impero. And if you’ve ended up in a smoke cloud as a BB within the past two years you’ll understand how marginal that consumable will be. 

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I was in a game with one of these ships.  I was surprised when a BB fired SAP at me.  I was in a heavy cruiser, and it hit me hard, but not AP hard.  

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12 minutes ago, jags_domain said:

There is getting to be way to much smoke these days.

That is in response to there being way too many CVs these days.

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Anyone buying Impero who has also bought Roma needs a permanent, non-removable camo that says “I’m an idiot” along the hull.

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16 minutes ago, tfcas119 said:

its also a Roma, so its gunners will still be incredibly drunk and overpen targets they hit when they are not.

It's been fun reading about the Jekyl & Hyde nature of the ITA 381mm guns.  A lot of potentially great things undermined by crazy, inconsistently made shells.

"The Model 1934 was extremely accurate and was able to deliver very consistent and predictable patterns with devastating hitting power - with the ammunition used for trials. Unfortunately, the materials and supply process in Italy works differently than it does in most other countries. In the U.S., for example, if one wished to test a sample of 16" shells, they might pull an example from stock, and inspect it directly. In Italy, the firm producing the equipment would have the advantage of providing the item for test, thereby possibly delivering an example which would be of atypically good quality with respect to serialized units. This was the problem with the Model 1934 - the firms producing the ammunition did not all produce projectiles of proper quality. [Admiral Angelo] Iachino complained about this in post-war books. Some actions showed a run of good projectiles, where others were plagued by terribly bad examples. Possibly the greatest contrast was seen between the shooting of Littorio in the first battle of Sirte Gulf and that of Vittorio Veneto in the 28 March Guado encounter. Despite the fact that Littorio was shooting at targets 32,000 yards away while Veneto was attacking at first Orion and afterwards Gloucester at only 24,000 yards, the Littorio's shot groups were significantly more consistent, despite the greater range, doubtlessly owing to a batch of properly fabricated 381-mm projectiles."

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40 minutes ago, FrodoFraggin said:

Anyone buying Impero who has also bought Roma needs a permanent, non-removable camo that says “I’m an idiot” along the hull.

Frodo, don't automatically assume that the Impero will be a separate premium ship.  It might just as easily be a test version of the Roma, and also a test for BB SAP in general.

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8 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Frodo, don't automatically assume that the Impero will be a separate premium ship.  It might just as easily be a test version of the Roma, and also a test for BB SAP in general.

That’s the gist I got too, that it's testing a mod for the Roma, but I can’t see WG passing up an opportunity to sell a new premium.

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I would rather see BBs firing SAP than more HE spammers in the game. 

 

And smoke in/for BBs is extremely situational, most of the times is only good to disengage. Even on the italian cruisers, their smoke is situational and mostly used to disengage, their smoke fire penalty is very high. 

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13 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Frodo, don't automatically assume that the Impero will be a separate premium ship.  It might just as easily be a test version of the Roma, and also a test for BB SAP in general.

If WG asked me, i wouldnt hesitate in trading my Roma HE shells for SAP and posible smoke. But i think its most likely WG sell another premium T8 italian BB than buff Roma. This also could be just a test for a future italian BB line and not a intended buff to Roma. 

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18 minutes ago, Xlap said:

I would rather see BBs firing SAP than more HE spammers in the game. 

 

And smoke in/for BBs is extremely situational, most of the times is only good to disengage. Even on the italian cruisers, their smoke is situational and mostly used to disengage, their smoke fire penalty is very high. 

Be careful what you wish for.

SAP has good alpha to it, you can see that in the ITA CA SAP shells having significantly higher raw damage than HE shells, as compensation for no Fire setting capability and chances of getting bounced.

IMO, the only reason why ITA Cruiser SAP is a failure is that they're small enough to get reliably bounced.

SAP shells coming from BATTLESHIP guns with Overmatch advantages, that's where it can shine.

380mm AP already has some Overmatch advantages, now imagine that with SAP alpha damage, SAP  short fusing.

Now picture ITA SAP shells coming from 406mm, which I assume Tier IX-X ITA BBs will have, possibly bigger.

 

You can tank Fire damage.  You can heal Fire damage back 100% with Repair Party.  You aren't tanking BB sized SAP, especially when it Overmatches.  Repair Party only repairs a % of Penetration damage.

"But I'll just angle with muh BB."

That works until those BB sized SAP shells start ripping into your Superstructure for Full Pen Damage and not Overpens, which often happens with normal BB AP to superstructure.

 

The interesting thing to see is how WG is going to reign this in.  It''s probably going to be wonky gunnery for the ITA BB Line.  Just my gut feeling.  Because there's precedent for it with the 381mm guns in the Littorio-class.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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15 minutes ago, Xlap said:

If WG asked me, i wouldnt hesitate in trading my Roma HE shells for SAP and posible smoke. But i think its most likely WG sell another premium T8 italian BB than buff Roma. This also could be just a test for a future italian BB line and not a intended buff to Roma. 

Personally, I don't like the idea of smoke of any kind on BBs.  But putting SAP on the Roma and all other potential Italian BBs sounds good to me.  I might be a bit wary of doing it for the GC, as I think that the GC is already OP at tier 5, but I suppose it depends on the results of BB SAP testing.

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Be careful what you wish for.

SAP has good alpha to it, you can see that in the ITA CA SAP shells having significantly higher raw damage than HE shells, as compensation for no Fire setting capability and chances of getting bounced.

IMO, the only reason why ITA Cruiser SAP is a failure is that they're small enough to get reliably bounced.

SAP shells coming from BATTLESHIP guns with Overmatch advantages, that's where it can shine.

380mm AP already has some Overmatch advantages, now imagine that with SAP alpha damage, SAP  short fusing.

Now picture ITA SAP shells coming from 406mm, which I assume Tier IX-X ITA BBs will have, possibly bigger.

 

You can tank Fire damage.  You can heal Fire damage back 100% with Repair Party.  You aren't tanking BB sized SAP, especially when it Overmatches.  Repair Party only repairs a % of Penetration damage.

"But I'll just angle with muh BB."

That works until those BB sized SAP shells start ripping into your Superstructure for Full Pen Damage and not Overpens, which often happens with normal BB AP to superstructure.

 

The interesting thing to see is how WG is going to reign this in.  It''s probably going to be wonky gunnery for the ITA BB Line.  Just my gut feeling.

Agreed, Haze.  Sadly, I doubt that WG will go back and replace the SAP with HE for the Italian CAs, though I think that they should.

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2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Agreed, Haze.  Sadly, I doubt that WG will go back and replace the SAP with HE for the Italian CAs, though I think that they should.

It's going to be fascinating to see what goes on with ITA BBs and SAP.  IMO, when you look how SAP behaves, you can see all the signs for it being extremely powerful on a BB platform. 

 

WG is going to have a fun time reigning that in from breaking the game.

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32 minutes ago, FrodoFraggin said:

That’s the gist I got too, that it's testing a mod for the Roma, but I can’t see WG passing up an opportunity to sell a new premium.

What I'd rather see if they were looking to sell another Italian BB would be to find a nice tier 6 or 7 one and do that, and not just use a sister ship of the Roma.  I'd rather that they throw us a little bone and replace the Roma's HE with SAP.

Unfortunately, the Italians only built 4 classes of "modern" battleships after the pre-dreadnoughts, 3 in the WW1 era and one in the WW2 era.  So there's not much to work with and a full line of RM BBs will require a lot of paper designs.

Edited by Crucis

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Radar came out after a t7 rank season when knowone could move because of smoke.  And DD needed a hard counter.  The devs said that cv was suppose to counter dd but few were in the game so they did a re work.

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2 hours ago, jags_domain said:

Just saw one in game.  He used the smoke to stop a air attack. Dont know what damage he did.

There is getting to be way to much smoke these days.

Boy you would not have made it as a Commander in real life.

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

Personally, I don't like the idea of smoke of any kind on BBs.  But putting SAP on the Roma and all other potential Italian BBs sounds good to me.  I might be a bit wary of doing it for the GC, as I think that the GC is already OP at tier 5, but I suppose it depends on the results of BB SAP testing.

I think that smoke on BBs its possible, but it need to be handled with careful. One of the things i like about that smoke on italian cruisers is that it allows me take some risks and disenage or set ambush situations. And i can see this being a problem in BBs depending of some stats. 

 

On Roma/Impero i dont think it would be a big issue Roma is not particularly fast, dispersion is poor, DPM is low, AP shells overpen a lot. As long it has some high smoke firing penalty i dont see it having a lot of offensive potential. But it could be very nice as a defensive tool. Roma can be very tanky when angled, but is hard to disengage because of the exposed citadel, a smoke could help a lot with that. 

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2 minutes ago, jags_domain said:

A game has nothing to do in real life.

Every single one of these ships was capable of "making smoke". Yea, the less skilled, usually dinkydirty drivers hate when reality gets in their way of lulz.

Live with it or leave. If it's being added, it's being added.:cap_like:

Edited by Slyguy3129

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Be careful what you wish for.

SAP has good alpha to it, you can see that in the ITA CA SAP shells having significantly higher raw damage than HE shells, as compensation for no Fire setting capability and chances of getting bounced.

IMO, the only reason why ITA Cruiser SAP is a failure is that they're small enough to get reliably bounced.

Personally i dont consider SAP to be a failure. I understand the complains of many players that SAP in game works different from SAP IRL. But as a game feature/gimmick works well to make italian cruisers different from the usuall HE spammers crusiers. 

1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

SAP shells coming from BATTLESHIP guns with Overmatch advantages, that's where it can shine.

380mm AP already has some Overmatch advantages, now imagine that with SAP alpha damage, SAP  short fusing.

Now picture ITA SAP shells coming from 406mm, which I assume Tier IX-X ITA BBs will have, possibly bigger.

 

You can tank Fire damage.  You can heal Fire damage back 100% with Repair Party.  You aren't tanking BB sized SAP, especially when it Overmatches.  Repair Party only repairs a % of Penetration damage.

"But I'll just angle with muh BB."

That works until those BB sized SAP shells start ripping into your Superstructure for Full Pen Damage and not Overpens, which often happens with normal BB AP to superstructure.

 

The interesting thing to see is how WG is going to reign this in.  It''s probably going to be wonky gunnery for the ITA BB Line.  Just my gut feeling.  Because there's precedent for it with the 381mm guns in the Littorio-class.

WIth the right pen values and pen angles, i dont see it being that much of a issue. RN BBs are much worse in that they ignore any kind of angling, dealing potentially massive HE alpha + fires + breaking modules. 

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