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Nemo_Veritas

Fire Prevention or Concealment Expert on Massachusetts?

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I was wondering which captain skill would be better. Obviously fire prevention would be useful to reduce the damage from HE spam, but the Massachusetts has an amazing heal so it sort of counters it. Concealment expert would also strengthen the stealthy characteristic of high tier American BBs. I need some clarification on this

Edited by Nemo_Veritas

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It depends entirely on how you intend to use it. Mass is a secondary ship, CE doesn't really get any use if you're using Mass correctly. Though, to be fair, if you're using Mass correctly, you shouldn't have the points for either one of those.

PT/PM, AR, SI, BoS, BFT, AFT, MFCS, that my Mass and GA build. Mass doesn't have the greatest accuracy, trying to play her consistently like Alabama isn't going to get you the results you're looking for.

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Yup, AFT and MFCS are the tier 4 skills required to make the Mass use her strengths properly.  As he mentioned, Alabama /North Carolina get the standard CE/FP tier 4 skills - Mass can still use them but you are then playing it to its weaknesses, not its strengths.

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56 minutes ago, Nemo_Veritas said:

I was wondering which captain skill would be better. Obviously fire prevention would be useful to reduce the damage from HE spam, but the Massachusetts has an amazing heal so it sort of counters it. Concealment expert would also strengthen the stealthy characteristic of high tier American BBs. I need some clarification on this

Here is my build; it's served me well. And, yes, that's IFHE -- it is still a good choice for the Massachusetts. 

image.thumb.png.4b3dd060c3b0b021a36158f616802215.png

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Just now, Snargfargle said:

Here is my build; it's served me well. And, yes, that's IFHE -- it is still a good choice for the Massachusetts. 

image.thumb.png.4b3dd060c3b0b021a36158f616802215.png

i would highly highly recommend dropping expert marksmen for adrenaline rush, you will increase so much dpm from your main guns and your secondaries when your hp gets lower.

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i dont take concealment expert on any battleship, you should be shooting at every chance making concealment irrelevant and cv will literally spot you within 15 seconds of you spawning.

if you feel uncomfortable being detected just learn to be aware of where your threats are and just dodge

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1 hour ago, Nemo_Veritas said:

I was wondering which captain skill would be better. Obviously fire prevention would be useful to reduce the damage from HE spam, but the Massachusetts has an amazing heal so it sort of counters it. Concealment expert would also strengthen the stealthy characteristic of high tier American BBs. I need some clarification on this

The characteristics of the Mass are COMPLETELY different than that of every US line ship.  It is not a good trainer for the rest of the US BB line.

What it is though, is a secondary monster.  You don't want either of those skills, you want to take advantages of it's strengths, which are the secondaries.

Also CE on a BB is kinda pointless in general in my opinion.  You want your guns firing as often as possible, which is going to keep you lit up like Christmas tree anyway.

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11 minutes ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

i dont take concealment expert on any battleship, you should be shooting at every chance making concealment irrelevant and cv will literally spot you within 15 seconds of you spawning.

if you feel uncomfortable being detected just learn to be aware of where your threats are and just dodge

2 minutes ago, Burnsy said:

The characteristics of the Mass are COMPLETELY different than that of every US line ship.  It is not a good trainer for the rest of the US BB line.

What it is though, is a secondary monster.  You don't want either of those skills, you want to take advantages of it's strengths, which are the secondaries.

Also CE on a BB is kinda pointless in general in my opinion.  You want your guns firing as often as possible, which is going to keep you lit up like Christmas tree anyway.

 

Here's my current Massachusetts build if you guys want to take a look. Notice how I traded BFT for superintendent to get an extra heal. Not sure if that was the best decision, but I'm now torn between a tanky build and a concealment build

shot-20.04.09_16.26.44-0907.jpg

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11 minutes ago, Nemo_Veritas said:

 

Here's my current Massachusetts build if you guys want to take a look. Notice how I traded BFT for superintendent to get an extra heal. Not sure if that was the best decision, but I'm now torn between a tanky build and a concealment build

shot-20.04.09_16.26.44-0907.jpg

That decision, between those two skills has always been a personal preference.  I have tried both and found merit for both.  But...that was when IFHE was of use.  It kind of isn't now so that has freed up 4 more skill points. 

What you don't want on the Mass, is concealment.  It's a brawler, it does it's damage, in close, slugging it out.  Trying to hide isn't going to do anything for it.

Here is a captain that I would throw in my Mass for a match:

 

shot-20.04.09_15.39.27-0186.jpg

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Just now, Nemo_Veritas said:

 

Here's my current Massachusetts build if you guys want to take a look. Notice how I traded BFT for superintendent to get an extra heal. Not sure if that was the best decision, but I'm now torn between a tanky build and a concealment build

shot-20.04.09_16.26.44-0907.jpg

i dont really know much about IFHE changes but i like to take fire prevention instead of IFHE

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Just now, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

i dont really know much about IFHE changes but i like to take fire prevention instead of IFHE

According to LWM's IFHE changes thread, IFHE won't do anything much for the secondaries any longer.

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Just now, Burnsy said:

According to LWM's IFHE changes thread, IFHE won't do anything much for the secondaries any longer.

oh ok well for sure take demo expert or fire prevention instead

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Just now, Burnsy said:

According to LWM's IFHE changes thread, IFHE won't do anything much for the secondaries any longer.

Actually, those who have crunched the numbers have come to the conclusion that if you took IFHE on something before the change then you should do so after the change. I didn't just decide to keep IFHE on the Massachusetts because of what someone said, I spent hours in the training room running simulations with and without it. With IFHE, the Massachusetts is a monster if its top tier. 

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The  Mass is the one ship I am completely OP in.  I do not recommend manual secondaries. 

Edited by eviltane

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9 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

Actually, those who have crunched the numbers have come to the conclusion that if you took IFHE on something before the change then you should do so after the change. I didn't just decide to keep IFHE on the Massachusetts because of what someone said, I spent hours in the training room running simulations with and without it. With IFHE, the Massachusetts is a monster if its top tier. 

Who are "those"?

If you have data that provides contradicting evidence, I am more than willing to look at it and reconsider.  I am not dedicated to just one source of information.

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3 minutes ago, eviltane said:

The  Mass is the one ship I am completely OP in.  I do not recommend manual secondaries. 

It depends on whether you like to brawl or not.

image.png.6ecdb5962cfac0ecc42e64a3050897d6.png

35% of my ship kills are by secondaries.

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14 minutes ago, Burnsy said:

Who are "those"?

If you have data that provides contradicting evidence, I am more than willing to look at it and reconsider.  I am not dedicated to just one source of information.

Here is one test. I posted a couple of these but since they were mostly for my own edification I didn't keep the results of all of them.

Smolensk

Opponent: Des Moines

Range: 10 km

Method: Aim at superstructure set a fire then move fore and aft setting more fires.

No IFHE           avg std
shell hits 191 156 188 201 192 185.6 17.24
shell damage 20891 23124 27223 28893 21188 24263.8 3616.69
fires 8 7 6 6 7 6.8 0.84
fire damage 29709 27476 23377 21707 29412 26336.2 3616.69
time 86 86 76 80 92 84 6.16
               
IFHE              
shell hits 158 182 134 120 131 145 24.9
shell damage 40885 44010 38760 35470 35572 38939.4 3636.78
fires 3 4 3 5 4 3.8 0.84
fire damage 9715 6596 11840 15180 15028 11671.8 3646.66
time 71 86 63 58 63 68.2 10.99

Conclusion: The Des Moines sinks faster with IFHE.

 

Massachusetts: Analysis of Secondary Armamemt

Opponent: Des Moines

Orientation: Broadside

Range 10.5 km

Number of iterations: 5

Signals and other skills: All applicable to a secondary spec

IFHE 1 2 3 4 5 avg
Shots fired 770 480 610 800 850 702
Hits 149 58 112 133 153 121
Accuracy 19 12 18 17 18 17
Shell Dmg 46046 32740 32384 41492 46046 39742
Fires 1 4 4 2 2 3
Fire Dmg 4554 17860 18216 9108 4554 10858
Dmg/fire 4554 4465 4554 4554 2277 4176
Duration 276 191 228 301 315 262
             
MCSA + DE 1 2 3 4 5 avg
Shots fired 466 402 642 432 480 484
Hits 177 170 267 293 189 219
Accuracy 38 42 42 68 39 45
Shell Dmg 24275 24146 30844 26898 24572 26147
Fires 6 6 5 6 6 6
Fire Dmg 26325 26457 19756 23702 26028 24454
Dmg/fire 4388 4410 3951 3950 4338 4216
Duration 189 198 297 214 185 224

Note that without MCSA the number of shots fires increases significantly from 484 to 702.

Note that the accuracy increased from 17% to 45% with MCSA.

Note that damage per fire is similar at 4176 vs. 4216.

Note that with MCSA + DE that fires increased significantly from 3 to 6.

Note that IFHE increases shell damage significantly from 26127 to 39743.

Note that with MCSA + HE that fire damage increased significantly from 10858 to 24454.

Note that the bots may or may not have extinguished fires as a human player would have.

Note that time to sinking was about the same, though slightly less for MCSA + DE.

Conclusion: As soon as get another command point point for one of my commanders, I am going to spec it MCSA + IFHE and see what this does, as it may result in the most damage to CAs. 

More data: Damage per shell

IFHE

Dmg/shell 309 564 289 312 301 328

MCSA + DE

Dmg/shell 137 142 116 92 130 119
Edited by Snargfargle

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1 minute ago, Snargfargle said:

Here is one test. I posted a couple of these but since they were mostly for my own edification I didn't keep the results of all of them.

Smolensk

Opponent: Des Moines

Range: 10 km

Method: Aim at superstructure set a fire then move fore and aft setting more fires.

No IFHE           avg std
shell hits 191 156 188 201 192 185.6 17.24
shell damage 20891 23124 27223 28893 21188 24263.8 3616.69
fires 8 7 6 6 7 6.8 0.84
fire damage 29709 27476 23377 21707 29412 26336.2 3616.69
time 86 86 76 80 92 84 6.16
               
IFHE              
shell hits 158 182 134 120 131 145 24.9
shell damage 40885 44010 38760 35470 35572 38939.4 3636.78
fires 3 4 3 5 4 3.8 0.84
fire damage 9715 6596 11840 15180 15028 11671.8 3646.66
time 71 86 63 58 63 68.2 10.99

Conclusion: The Des Moines sinks faster with IFHE.

Well my main concern with this is whether or not IFHE is worth the 4 skill points. I could use those points for basics of survivability and high alert or fire prevention to mitigate damage and decrease the damage control reload time. Also, many CCs and unicum players claim that IFHE is a dead build now because of the changes.

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1 minute ago, Nemo_Veritas said:

Well my main concern with this is whether or not IFHE is worth the 4 skill points. I could use those points for basics of survivability and high alert or fire prevention to mitigate damage and decrease the damage control reload time. Also, many CCs and unicum players claim that IFHE is a dead build now because of the changes.

There is always a trade off. You will have to determine for yourself if the four points are worth it. The way I play I think that they are. However, if you play differently than me then maybe not for you. 

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31 minutes ago, eviltane said:

The  Mass is the one ship I am completely OP in.  I do not recommend manual secondaries. 

I'm not a big fan of MFCS either.  Yes, it's powerful, but very much situational.  To tell you the truth, though, I can't make up my mind between FP and CE.  Probably FP.  I should do like Snarg and do the Training Room thing.  Or, I would if I had a captain I could afford to swap skills on...

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2 hours ago, Burnsy said:

You want your guns firing as often as possible, which is going to keep you lit up like Christmas tree anyway.

Not so much, imo.  Firing the instant your reload cycle's complete is not always what you want to be doing.  Sometimes holding fire, going dark and waiting for a target to get distracted by something else or otherwise not pay attention to you and opening their side to you can be lucrative.  Admittedly, in CV games, that probably isn't viable for long/at all.

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10 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

I'm not a big fan of MFCS either.  Yes, it's powerful, but very much situational.  To tell you the truth, though, I can't make up my mind between FP and CE.  Probably FP.  I should do like Snarg and do the Training Room thing.  Or, I would if I had a captain I could afford to swap skills on...

I do a lot of these tests during free repec periods. However, one advantage of a Premium like the Massy is that you can put commanders from other ships into it without retraining too.

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I usually use 16 pt N. Carolina CO with FP and CE on MA.  My 12 pt BB COs both have FP.   (My 19 point COs are cruiser captains.)  Need more ECXP.

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3 hours ago, Nemo_Veritas said:

I was wondering which captain skill would be better. Obviously fire prevention would be useful to reduce the damage from HE spam, but the Massachusetts has an amazing heal so it sort of counters it. Concealment expert would also strengthen the stealthy characteristic of high tier American BBs. I need some clarification on this

Here's what I use.
Your mileage may vary.
On other BB's, I've got Preventive Maintenance, Last Stand, Superintendent, and Advanced Firing Training (to increase the range of the secondary battery, among other benefits).
My "Big Mamie" is gonna get Fire Prevention when enough points become available.  But for now, she's the ship I'm using to train myself in using Manual Fire Control for Secondary Battery guns.

789388710_Massachussets_CaptainSkills_04-09-2020_.thumb.jpg.477116dd9b503db110b7fc06b1664d0e.jpg

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4 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

Massachusetts: Analysis of Secondary Armamemt

 Opponent: Des Moines

Orientation: Broadside

Range 10.5 km

Number of iterations: 5

Signals and other skills: All applicable to a secondary spec

It's really odd that IFHE increased the shelling damage at all in that match up. There shouldn't be any part that IFHE 12.7cms can pen that non-IFHE ones can't. The 26mm of pen you get isn't enough to pen the 27mm plating DM is covered with and the only part you can damage, the 16mm super structure, should be penned just as well with the 21mm of pen you have without it. The only thing I can guess is that either the ManSecs made more shots hit the belt, or if both tests had it it was simply RNG trolling you.

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