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OceanRamblin

DFAA worthless?

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I have seen a number of posts on the forums in the last week or so where someone berating CVs makes the comment that Defensive Fire AA is useless or a waste.  Yet when I equip it....it appears to shoot down planes when activated.

Is it really the case that I should drop the use of DFAA in general...say on the Des Moines....and use Hydro instead?

If folks could reply with regards to its viability in both random and, more specifically, the upcoming clan battle season, I would appreciate the input.

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The problem with DFAA is that it focuses the damage mostly in flak, which is pretty easy to avoid for decent CV drivers. 

Honestly, even if it was more useful, I'd still take hydro because I don't always face CVs in battle, while I always face ships equipped with torpedoes. 

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Depends on play style and the persons willingness to adapt to hydro...

While I dont recommend it, someone else will excel in using hydro... I say try it, if you dont like it or it doesn't fit with your play style, then just revert back... No harm no foul...

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DFAA and AA are essentially useless. Don't take DFAA or spec into ANY AA captains skills. AA was nerfed into oblivion. Any damage you do is irrelevant because it wont stop incoming attacks and any planes shot down are easily replaced. They simultaneously made CVs easy to play and AA useless which is why you hear so many complaints about CVs now. 

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Best thing to do is look at your AA numbers and then look at what DFAA brings to the party.  It stacks with sector re-inforcement, so look at that combo.  

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For the DM and anything where you have to choose, hydro every day of the week and even more if you can.  INFINITELY more useful.  Both in actuality and in perception.  If in some circumstance the DefAA makes a significant enough difference for you to notice then the CV is going to see that much more clearly and react accordingly.  

So on the one hand, you could say that's a bit of a deterrent but it's one of those deals where the better it works the less you get to use it.  The AA mechanics in this game result in all sorts of weird, illogical outcomes. 

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Planes used to fear my Atlanta and Worcester. Now they laugh in my face. Hope that helps.

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DefAA can still be useful, but is not as effective as before the rework, and (to my knowledge) no longer causes “panic” so the planes attack run isn’t directly affected by it.

Anyway I find hydro more useful these days.

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DFAA is still very effective. Problem insofar as the user is the flak appears unable to hit the attacking flight, but it ensures 1-3 more plane kills easily.

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It's no longer an "I win" button against CVs, and since that's what people were used to, yes it's a downgrade. Considering that CVs can't OHK you anymore, I think it's a fair trade. If you use DFAA in conjunction with sectors, it can be very good..

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21 minutes ago, PotatoMD said:

The problem with DFAA is that it focuses the damage mostly in flak, which is pretty easy to avoid for decent CV drivers. 

Honestly, even if it was more useful, I'd still take hydro because I don't always face CVs in battle, while I always face ships equipped with torpedoes. 

Depends how much flak we're talking about.   There does sometimes reach a point where the flak simply cannot be avoided because its EVERYWHERE or the CV must fly through it to line up his attack.   Yeah, you can dodge it when its like 3-4 clouds randomly popping up, its easy, but make it more like 8 clouds and suddenly its a lot harder.

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2 minutes ago, Reymu said:

DFAA is still very effective. Problem insofar as the user is the flak appears unable to hit the attacking flight, but it ensures 1-3 more plane kills easily.

It's not worth giving up hydro.  And at best it'll encourage the CV to just stand off and light him up while your teammates kill him.

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Just now, CommodoreKang said:

It's not worth giving up hydro.  And at best it'll encourage the CV to just stand off and light him up while your teammates kill him.

Only worthwhile if use it right after CV's first attack run so (hopefully) immunity window ends with flak right in his face. But playing to discourage CV attacking you is another skill, learned it too. Perhaps that's the only time AA becomes a real deterrent.

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Just now, Reymu said:

Only worthwhile if use it right after CV's first attack run so (hopefully) immunity window ends with flak right in his face. But playing to discourage CV attacking you is another skill, learned it too. Perhaps that's the only time AA becomes a real deterrent.

It might work once unless the CV is a potato and then anything is on the table.  The better it works the more likely the CV comes back, stands off and lights you up and lets the millions of DPM flying around take care of you.

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4 minutes ago, Reymu said:

Only worthwhile if use it right after CV's first attack run so (hopefully) immunity window ends with flak right in his face. But playing to discourage CV attacking you is another skill, learned it too. Perhaps that's the only time AA becomes a real deterrent.

That's usually what I do. If my ship isn't a whale, focus and DFAA at once to chew him out of getting another run while he's trying to turn around.

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     DFAA improves flak, but the good CV players pretty much just juke around flak bursts anyway, so what's the point?

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6 minutes ago, So_lt_Goes said:

     DFAA improves flak, but the good CV players pretty much just juke around flak bursts anyway, so what's the point?

LOL.   I thought they got rid of flak or changed the algorithm or something to make it more even?  Or did they revert that back?  So many repressed memories....

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DFAA used to be an effective counter to a CV drop, because it increased damage and caused the panic effect on enemy bombers.  Now all it does is increase damage.  It won't prevent you from being dropped on, and it won't wipe out an attacking squad.  Hydro is a far better choice.

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Yup, I've switched to hydro on all my ships where I have the option. Kind of sad to see DM with hydro, used to be a no fly zone. And for those of you saying CVs can't oneshot any more, the other day it took a Hak all of two drops to delete my DM, so explain why he can delete my ship and my AA can't do anything about it?

I actually specced all my AA commanders out of AA skills a while ago. AFT is not worth 4 points for what it does now. I never ran MFCAA (Didn't see RTS CVs enough for that), but it's really not worth it now. The AA modules are a joke now. Just focus the builds on mitigating the damage the CVs will do to you, because there's nothing you can do about stopping the CV damaging you.

CVs actually improved (still broken, but better). WG just flushed all the AA down the drain, so the net result is surface ship vs plane interactions are just flat out worse and only depend on skill of CV player in dodging flak and relative tier gap between ships.

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The CV drivers would certainly prefer you take hydro over DFAA but the logic seems to be weighted in the favor of hydro. CVs aren't alway present and if they are, they may not attack you if you are already driving a heavy AA ship. Pretty much every game has torpedoes to dodge, smoked up ships to spot.

Not sure if this might change for Clan Battles with CVs (what a wonderful idea:Smile_facepalm:)

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56 minutes ago, BenAubrey said:

I have seen a number of posts on the forums in the last week or so where someone berating CVs makes the comment that Defensive Fire AA is useless or a waste.  Yet when I equip it....it appears to shoot down planes when activated.

Is it really the case that I should drop the use of DFAA in general...say on the Des Moines....and use Hydro instead?

If folks could reply with regards to its viability in both random and, more specifically, the upcoming clan battle season, I would appreciate the input.

It depends on the ship. 

Forget flak - it can be dodged and is therefore irrelevant when taking in to consideration to goo/not good. Why the Kremlin nerf's are a low impact joke.

What really sets if your AA is good or not is DPS or more accurately damage over time. 

I don't know number for most ships top of my head but generally last check as is Des still has good AA. Let's say 90 DPS at a long range of 5.5-6 km, 350 at around 4 and 100 at 2 km - feel free to tell the real numbers and I can adjust the math. Tier 10 planes average about .5 km/s so long range gets 11-12 ticks, med 8, and short 4. Long range will do 990-1080, med 2800, short 400. DFAA on all but Stalingrad increases the continuous damage 50% - so that'd be if we go low range 1485, 4200, and 600, and that is without sector reinforcement to another 50%. That'd be 6000 damage, which will down 2-3 plane on their way in for the first pass even if they perfectly dodge flak.

Meanwhile Atlanta has I think maybe 100-150 in the outer band and something insanely low so it only does about maybe 1200 damage, 1800 with Def AA. The numbers are low enough that I attack them at will, which is a major issue for something sold as an AA boat. 

 

On most IJN ships and DD's generally, save some like Friesland, yeah, it's gonna be a waste to use it because most IJN ships and DD's have terrible AA and 50% more does very little even wit 35%+ from sectors. USN almost absolutely, some German ships, you'll make CV players cry if you take it. It just comes down to knowing what ships can do what and a basic understanding how it works. The above bit is admittedly an over simplified version that doesn't factor aircraft armour skill, hit rate (which is a stupid thing they have that modifies the DPS they should just give us the actual number) massive damage or inability to maintain speed (that .5 km/s is based on the average top speed of planes using their boost - if they burn it up they are in AA longer). But it's good enough to to do the quick math to get an idea and not spend 10+ minutes taking in every precise factor while trying to play. Want to look at vs tier 4, 6 and 8 CV's those are .35, .4 and .45 km/s respectively (other than Ark Royal using tier 4/5 planes which is basically the tier 4 number).

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1 hour ago, PotatoMD said:

I don't always face CVs in battle, while I always face ships equipped with torpedoes. 

This, totally!

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Just now, Banished_Privateer said:

worthless consumable

Yep it doesn't instantly delete all planes. So logic is useless. Please dont use it at all. I love it when ships dont take it.

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