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foehammer273

Death of the DD

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Hi All

I have been playing this game a long time.  I have seen many changes.  I have, more specifically, seen the steady decline of the destroyer.  Granted, the first iteration of DDs was hilariously OP.  Anyone else remember stealth firing?  
 

I love playing high tier DDs.  They are the linchpin in so many battles.  I probably have 20 DDs in my harbor, if not more.  I am retiring my DD play.  They are no longer “fun” to play, and they are the only class I can say that about.  They are no longer “challenging” to play either, just pathetic.

WG has stripped so much from DD play.  I have made my suggestions in the past.  It is their prerogative to consider my opinion or not.  I don’t consider myself dramatic or demanding.  I understand a suggestion is just that: a suggestion.  
 

The last couple of major updates has seen the nail put in the proverbial coffin for high tier DD play.  Equipping only certain DDs with detection devices.  Equipping only certain DDs with repair.  I have played too many games recently where my DD was “radar” detected for more than 60 seconds at a time (multiple detection devices popping off sequentially).  Then I would maybe get 20 seconds of respite before another detection device occurred. That is an eternity for a DD player and there is no escape from the gunfire, planes etc.  Some of you have said, “Don’t get so close”.  What’s the point of a DD if they don’t scout, don’t cap, do go into harms way for the team?

[edited]

“Change your game play” when the game play sucks is such a cop-out reply.  I choose to say “screw DD play”, and walk away from that line.  I’ll enjoy sinking DDs in my other ships...  while my teammates detect them... all the while hoping the dev team wakes up, but knowing they won’t.

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Sorry to read any post where a longtime player gets so dispirited. We obviously need a robust DD component to our fleets to counter the forthcoming submarine apocalypse :cap_haloween:. Best regards....

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I would not say its the decline of DDs, i would say the role of the DDs are obsolete thanks to power creep of the other ship classes. More importantly WG policies and priorities shifted since it premiered.

This and many other factors and decisions of WG since 2018, Have destroyed high tier games and DDs.

It is what it is...

This is the "adaptation" people leave.

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I agree with most of what you're saying but I will still play DDs.  Just like the punishment I guess...  

I don't have a problem with CVs as long as it's one per team.  Radar can be frustrating but you (as well as your larger teammates) need to learn that the days of rushing into a cap are over.  Need to be smart about when & where you enter the circle of death.  It also helps if you get support from YOUR radar equipped teammates.

I know many blame MM and I too would like to see some changes.  When I see that I'm on a team with one radar equipped ship compared to the other team that has four makes me a bit p'd off.  There's got to be a way to manage that.  I also feel like it's time WGing thinks about adding a new category of ships (Battle Cruisers?) for ships like the Alaska.  These premium super cruisers with their big guns and MASSIVE health pools are much stronger than their tech tree counterparts IMO and should have a category of their own.

Anywho, don't give up the DD ship.  If I get irked at T8 - T10 play I drop down to the radar free (for the most part) zone of T5 - T7.  Multiple CVs used to be the problem there but with this recent update perhaps things will get better.

Semper Paratus!

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13 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

I would not say its the decline of DDs, i would say the role of the DDs are obsolete thanks to power creep of the other ship classes. More importantly WG policies and priorities shifted since it premiered.

This and many other factors and decisions of WG since 2018, Have destroyed high tier games and DDs.

It is what it is...

This is the "adaptation" people leave.

Clearly you have not seen what Shimakaze DDs and Gearings are still pulling off. At least in the roles of long ranged torpedo attacks with guns being only there if you absolutely need them. Did 4 kills and almost scored a 5th kill in my Shima last night and those kills I did the bulk of the damage. And the AA guns have been proving good enough to burn through a fair amount of aircraft if you use O key sector reinforcement, have BFT, and turn your AA on and off at the right moments.

Now some of the gunboat DDs I have to agree that they come and go with their usefulness. But the old torpedo boat DDs still carry on / adapt. 

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23 minutes ago, cgbosn4 said:

I agree with most of what you're saying but I will still play DDs.  Just like the punishment I guess...  

I don't have a problem with CVs as long as it's one per team.  Radar can be frustrating but you (as well as your larger teammates) need to learn that the days of rushing into a cap are over.  Need to be smart about when & where you enter the circle of death.  It also helps if you get support from YOUR radar equipped teammates.

I know many blame MM and I too would like to see some changes.  When I see that I'm on a team with one radar equipped ship compared to the other team that has four makes me a bit p'd off.  There's got to be a way to manage that.  I also feel like it's time WGing thinks about adding a new category of ships (Battle Cruisers?) for ships like the Alaska.  These premium super cruisers with their big guns and MASSIVE health pools are much stronger than their tech tree counterparts IMO and should have a category of their own.

Anywho, don't give up the DD ship.  If I get irked at T8 - T10 play I drop down to the radar free (for the most part) zone of T5 - T7.  Multiple CVs used to be the problem there but with this recent update perhaps things will get better.

Semper Paratus!

I had actually made a suggestion a while back to make detection devices “more fair”.  I really see it as changing everything and don’t know if that suggestion was ever seen or considered.  
 

In essence the change I suggested was as follows: radar should not make the ships visible when detected.  Radar doesn’t do that IRL, and shouldn’t in game.  Radar should place a red triangle (like a present enemy torpedo indicator) or dot on the water where the detected ship is.  This would hide the ships movements, type and speed to an extent, but still allow the ships location to be known.  Ships could fire at the triangle/dot.  As the detected ship moves, so too does the triangle.  Hell, there could even be an arrow added to denote the direction in which the detected ship is moving in!

Seems like this would improve the situation for the detected ships and actually make trying to hit detected ships more challenging and fun (for both surface ships and planes).

With this change I honestly don’t see a problem arising with how many radar ships are on each team as the detected ship has a much better chance of evading incoming fire since they are more “hidden”, but don’t have the former stealth invincibility of the pre-radar days that we seasoned DD captains used to call The Happy Time!!!  :)

Does this solution just make too much sense? 

My two cents!

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3 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Clearly you have not seen what Shimakaze DDs and Gearings are still pulling off. At least in the roles of long ranged torpedo attacks with guns being only there if you absolutely need them. Did 4 kills and almost scored a 5th kill in my Shima last night and those kills I did the bulk of the damage. And the AA guns have been proving good enough to burn through a fair amount of aircraft if you use O key sector reinforcement, have BFT, and turn your AA on and off at the right moments.

Now some of the gunboat DDs I have to agree that they come and go with their usefulness. But the old torpedo boat DDs still carry on / adapt. 

I use a Shima all the time.  Long range torping is pretty boring game play IMHO.

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47 minutes ago, Grapefruitcannon said:

Death of dd...you know how many times i heard this in the past 5 years....   too many.

And every time you heard it, it was a warranted reaction to [edited] dev changes. 
 

And it keeps getting worse.  

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6 minutes ago, foehammer273 said:

I use a Shima all the time.  Long range torping is pretty boring game play IMHO.

Lol that is why a I also engage in selective gun battles with Shima. I also love going in for close ranged torpedo attacks, particularly against smoked Smolensks as you can get close to your assured detectability range and if they are firing you can see them, but they can’t see you and just launch the torpedoes and enjoy the Dev strike.

I have taken to using 20km torpedoes when school is out and teams might be questionable, but that dies not mean I have to fire toroefies at long range. It simply gives me the option to do so if the situations call for them. Such as if you have a ground of camping Stalingrads that are alternating Radar, thinking they are safe, and you launch torpedoes from 12.5km right into their unsuspecting broadsides... :cap_haloween:

I also do not only play DDs, but CAs and BBs as well and full plan on using subs. I used to play CVs prior to the Rework, and only have a RN tier VI CV now to compete missions with in scenarios or Co-Op if the rewards are really good for the missions. So I don’t get bored with gameplay since I rotate what I use at will, and even the “boring” long ranged torpedo attacks can feel fresh if you use enough ships and tactics.

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I think I read the DD was dead about 5 times in the past 3 years!!! and yet its still there...:Smile_glasses:

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20 minutes ago, foehammer273 said:

I had actually made a suggestion a while back to make detection devices “more fair”.  I really see it as changing everything and don’t know if that suggestion was ever seen or considered.  
 

In essence the change I suggested was as follows: radar should not make the ships visible when detected.  Radar doesn’t do that IRL, and shouldn’t in game.  Radar should place a red triangle (like a present enemy torpedo indicator) or dot on the water where the detected ship is.  This would hide the ships movements, type and speed to an extent, but still allow the ships location to be known.  Ships could fire at the triangle/dot.  As the detected ship moves, so too does the triangle.  Hell, there could even be an arrow added to denote the direction in which the detected ship is moving in!

Seems like this would improve the situation for the detected ships and actually make trying to hit detected ships more challenging and fun (for both surface ships and planes).

With this change I honestly don’t see a problem arising with how many radar ships are on each team as the detected ship has a much better chance of evading incoming fire since they are more “hidden”, but don’t have the former stealth invincibility of the pre-radar days that we seasoned DD captains used to call The Happy Time!!!  :)

Does this solution just make too much sense? 

My two cents!

I like your radar suggestion and agree that it’s more “like in the real world” but I doubt it will put into the game.  The same would apply to hydro as well. The “radar doesn’t work through islands” is another flaw but so isn’t loading 12 torpedos in under two minutes...  It’s a game and modifications need to be made to make it semi-enjoyable so you can complete a battle in 20 minutes or less. 

I’m sure WGing’s thought on this is that both sides have this “technology” so this makes everything fair. The problem is that sometimes one side has more of it than the other, hence the term, “Random.”

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43 minutes ago, foehammer273 said:

And every time you heard it, it was a warranted reaction to [edited] dev changes. 
 

And it keeps getting worse.  

Thing is though, how many times can DD play die? It's been dead for years according to the forum yet it keeps dying.

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I had 3 Krakens in the last week in dds (Oland, Benham, Gearing) and my favorite yesterday a double just a flesh wound double strike in a z52.

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As one who plays Tier X BBs, I would like to offer a counter argument. I have been torped numerous times in open water by a DD I never saw. This is extremely frustrating. There is no opportunity to defend. If a DD can get within torpedo range on open water (no smoke screen, nothing to hide behind, OPEN water) the DD should be and under actual circumstances WOULD be visible to the opposing ship. Yesterday I took 7 torpedo's in 2 salvos from a Gearing that was in open water and I never saw him. In fact, for most of the game, the Gearing never appeared. This is not right.

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1 hour ago, Raven114 said:

I think I read the DD was dead about 5 times in the past 3 years!!! and yet its still there...:Smile_glasses:

Is it fun though?

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17 minutes ago, Vector03 said:

Is it fun though?

The current problem (as I've been witnessing it) in WoWs presently is that most players would define that term as anytime they roflstomp the other side.  I define fun as overcoming adversity and feel we received proportional reward to our degree of input.  I know there are others like me too in this, but we seem to be a minority.  I've developed a habit of rewarding karma points to anyone scoring in the top 4 (in Coop) but didn't achieve a kill.  It's not much, but what can make a game feel like a job is when you're contributing to your side's victory but there's nothing particularly tangible about it.

I'm a DD main, and I've noticed that most DD drivers seem to feel they should be killing everything in sight.  The only problem is that everyone else feels the same way.  Most of our reward system is largely based on kills achieved.  So perhaps a change in the reward meta?  Or would that be too demasculinizing for many people?  If DDs (or anyone else for that matter) felt their efforts were contributing and effectively rewarded, a lot of these arguments would go away.

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30 minutes ago, JAKeller said:

The current problem (as I've been witnessing it) in WoWs presently is that most players would define that term as anytime they roflstomp the other side.

While with the other hand typing threads about 'too many roflstomps'.

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22 minutes ago, JAKeller said:

The current problem (as I've been witnessing it) in WoWs presently is that most players would define that term as anytime they roflstomp the other side.  I define fun as overcoming adversity and feel we received proportional reward to our degree of input.  I know there are others like me too in this, but we seem to be a minority.  I've developed a habit of rewarding karma points to anyone scoring in the top 4 (in Coop) but didn't achieve a kill.  It's not much, but what can make a game feel like a job is when you're contributing to your side's victory but there's nothing particularly tangible about it.

I'm a DD main, and I've noticed that most DD drivers seem to feel they should be killing everything in sight.  The only problem is that everyone else feels the same way.  Most of our reward system is largely based on kills achieved.  So perhaps a change in the reward meta?  Or would that be too demasculinizing for many people?  If DDs (or anyone else for that matter) felt their efforts were contributing and effectively rewarded, a lot of these arguments would go away.

I'd have to agree, fun isn't necessarily rofl-stomping, although it can be, but more winning a hard-fought game that took a lot of effort. I believe damage is rewarded most, more than kills, so this favors CA/CLs and BBs over DDs. DDs have far more to do than just collect damage. Thus DD play isn't adequately rewarded and DDs have a harder time. This isn't even mentioning radar, CVs, etc. I'd love to see WG reward DD spotting/capping more, but I doubt they'll do it. They don't care about DDs.

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4 hours ago, Captain_Cubby said:

As one who plays Tier X BBs, I would like to offer a counter argument. I have been torped numerous times in open water by a DD I never saw. This is extremely frustrating. There is no opportunity to defend. If a DD can get within torpedo range on open water (no smoke screen, nothing to hide behind, OPEN water) the DD should be and under actual circumstances WOULD be visible to the opposing ship. Yesterday I took 7 torpedo's in 2 salvos from a Gearing that was in open water and I never saw him. In fact, for most of the game, the Gearing never appeared. This is not right.

It is so easy to not get torped in BBs and CL/CA:

Don’t sail alone, change course and speed often.

I play all types of ships.  Torps are a joke.

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52 minutes ago, foehammer273 said:

It is so easy to not get torped in BBs and CL/CA:

Don’t sail alone, change course and speed often.

I play all types of ships.  Torps are a joke.

It's not the targeted ones that get you. It's the area denial ones that weren't specifically aimed at you.

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21 hours ago, Vector03 said:

I'd have to agree, fun isn't necessarily rofl-stomping, although it can be, but more winning a hard-fought game that took a lot of effort. I believe damage is rewarded most, more than kills, so this favors CA/CLs and BBs over DDs. DDs have far more to do than just collect damage. Thus DD play isn't adequately rewarded and DDs have a harder time. This isn't even mentioning radar, CVs, etc. I'd love to see WG reward DD spotting/capping more, but I doubt they'll do it. They don't care about DDs.

Suggestion (among others): a hierarchical system of reward for potential damage received.  DDs get a lot of ordinance thrown at them, especially if they're trying to push and scout, yet as the class with the least amount of health are least able to stoically withstand any actual hits.  (you know the phrase of throw enough fecal matter and something will hit)  Indeed I think WG should probably create hierarchical and nuanced reward levels for all rewards against the classes.  Some classes are better at certain things than others; they should get more points for doing those things.  Other things are more subtle.  E.g. if you defend an area at close range against a BB from a DD, you're definitely punching above your weight, especially if the BB is aiming for you.  XP should be weighted accordingly.  I have become convinced that a class and activity type system will assist in eliminating a lot of complaints.  Right now, we just have a system that rewards activity types, but if we added nuances for ship class, range (not only to the nearest enemy ship, but the average distance to all surviving enemy ships), etc., we'll make it better.

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13 minutes ago, JAKeller said:

Suggestion (among others): a hierarchical system of reward for potential damage received.  DDs get a lot of ordinance thrown at them, especially if they're trying to push and scout, yet as the class with the least amount of health are least able to stoically withstand any actual hits.  (you know the phrase of throw enough fecal matter and something will hit)  Indeed I think WG should probably create hierarchical and nuanced reward levels for all rewards against the classes.  Some classes are better at certain things than others; they should get more points for doing those things.  Other things are more subtle.  E.g. if you defend an area at close range against a BB from a DD, you're definitely punching above your weight, especially if the BB is aiming for you.  XP should be weighted accordingly.  I have become convinced that a class and activity type system will assist in eliminating a lot of complaints.  Right now, we just have a system that rewards activity types, but if we added nuances for ship class, range (not only to the nearest enemy ship, but the average distance to all surviving enemy ships), etc., we'll make it better.

Very good suggestions, WG would do well to follow this.

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To those commenting on my post about a BB getting torped, you missed the part about getting torped by  DD that was never seen in open waters. Notification about torps approaching doesn't come soon enough to take evasive action when there is no indication a DD is in range. That is my complaint. The "stealth" a DD has when in open waters that permits it to get within torpedo range without being seen is not right. When I'm aware of a DD I can take action, when a DD is not seen in open waters, there is nothing that can be done. Secondly, a BB firing on and hitting a DD beyond the range of secondaries is difficult at best. Cruisers with their machine gun rate of fire have a better chance of hitting a DD. Back to the stealth issue, smoke screens, yes, hiding behind islands, yes, but not being seen in open waters at or near torpedo range, NO!

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On 4/8/2020 at 7:18 AM, Lert said:

Thing is though, how many times can DD play die? It's been dead for years according to the forum yet it keeps dying.

Maybe it’s because a certain black cat like to hunt DDs as if they were mice... :Smile_teethhappy:

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