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Sabot_100

Jekyll and Hyde ships

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Coop and randoms have different metas and requirements.

Thought it would be interesting to compile a list of ships that are good for one but not so good for the other. The ships don't have to be horrible in one mode, just decidedly sub par.

For example:

Texas/New York are OK for randoms but suffer in coop because their speed often means they don't get into battle before it is over.

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The most obvious for me are German Battleships.

In typical team environment of PVP, German Battleships may have trouble closing range to do what they do best:  Brawl.  Enemy players aren't obligated to give a brawl and if you push at the wrong time you get focused down hard or eat torps.

But in PVE, most especially Co-op, German Battleships are very effective, and they are in their element as Co-op is basically a brawl most of the time. 

Mid Tiered German BBs also have fair speed, way better than the trash USN Standards going 21kts.  Starting Tier VII, they go Fast BB speeds.

With Co-op being a brawl most of the time, the German BB protection scheme is the best.  You don't give up the Citadel hit easily, your 50mm deck armor Tier VII on mitigates a bunch of HE damage.

High Tier German BBs with Mega Secondaries Build are in heaven here as they get to fight one target with their Main Battery while their long range Secondaries kill something else.

In PVP they will be vulnerable to AP Bomber capable CVs, but the Bot CVs in PVE can't hit sh*t.  And since the Bot planes fly in straight lines, they get absolutely shredded by the AA flak bursts. 

Another plus, BFT & AFT skills that are often taken for Secondary Builds will also improve AA, so it's a Win - Win for German BB Secondary Builds.

High Tier German BBs in the tech tree also get Hydro, which is added insurance and a feeling of security when you close range and brawl.

When you need a BB to fight a handful of bots at the same time, the German BB in PVE is the safest bet overall.  The tech tree ones will take care of your needs. 

 

I know the High Tier ones like Bismarck, GK get all the attention, but even in mid tier, Konig and Bayern are fast, well protected, and capable over there.  Gneisenau is very fast in Tier VII, has the 128mm Secondaries, and has torpedoes.

 

The next big changer are Destroyers.  Playing a DD in PVP is an interesting but also stressful experience.  It's a delicate balance of scouting, capping, skirmishing, while still keeping your DD alive and not dying the first 5 minutes of a Random Battle.  In Co-op, the targets come to you and that's paradise for DDs in PVE.  As long as you got solid torpedoes, your DD can easily top the BaseXP scores at the end of the game, debo'ing all the damage and kills in a short game.

 

As for a ship type that actually gets worse for PVE?  Carriers.

The Post-CV Rework Carrier is a ship designed for steady, smaller damage output.  In a long lasting Random Battle game that is not surprising to go 10, 15, or even full 20 minutes, the CV in PVP setting can get a lot of work done.

In Co-op, it's a totally different story as CVs struggle to keep up in damage, kills.  It's pretty hard work to even get in the top 3 in BaseXPs in a short 3-5 minute Co-op game with a CV.  Your only typical shot in topping BaseXPs is if the Co-op game goes real long, 10+ minutes or something, so your planes got time to do work.

Because it's difficult to score high with CVs in Co-op, grinding CV Lines in that game mode becomes nightmarish the higher in tiers you go.  Operations will help for the Tier VI CV grind, but past that, you're screwed unless you're sacrificing precious FreeXPs.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Mikasa.

Anyone who dies to a Mikasa in Randoms has negative luck, or doesn’t know how to deal with it.

Mikasa loves Co-op for the reasons given above by @HazeGrayUnderway

Especially if the torpies are dead, you push in with Mikasa and watch the fireworks fly.

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In this meta of running co-ops to complete directives as quickly as possible, the slow ships suffer horribly. 90% of the co-op games these days seem to last under 5 minutes due to the bots generally pushing straight forward, and the faster ships get to the engagement, kill stuff, and the match ends at zero points for the bots VERY quickly. Slow ships, especially short range lower tier BBs have no chance. Only on during times when the ally team is populated with bots or when the fast-movers REALLY screw up and die early do the slow ships have a chance to do real damage.

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2 hours ago, SouthboundPachyderm said:

In this meta of running co-ops to complete directives as quickly as possible, the slow ships suffer horribly. 90% of the co-op games these days seem to last under 5 minutes due to the bots generally pushing straight forward, and the faster ships get to the engagement, kill stuff, and the match ends at zero points for the bots VERY quickly. Slow ships, especially short range lower tier BBs have no chance. Only on during times when the ally team is populated with bots or when the fast-movers REALLY screw up and die early do the slow ships have a chance to do real damage.

I want to say for the Snowflake event at December 2018, there was this funny incident.  Slow sailing 21kt BBs struggled to get into effective ranges to fight because the faster ships killed everything first.

On 6/1/2019 at 2:00 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

K1lXoFY.jpg

This is especially a thing in the lower and mid tiers where there are many Battleships that are super slow.  That chat screenshot I took?  It was from the Holidays, when there was the "Snowflake" event to grind Coal and Steel.  At that instance I was playing either New Mexico or Arizona to shake the snowflake off.  I sailed as fast as I could toward the cap but it wasn't fast enough because the Destroyers killed everything before all the 21kt or so BBs arrived to fight.  The funny part was the Independence sailing past us slow BBs to try to keep up with the DDs and shorten the flight time, servicing time of her planes :Smile_teethhappy:

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In general I would think certain ship capabilities would be worse in coop than in randoms.

Ships that rely on stealth and sneaking around are at gimped in coop. By the time you sneak into your ambush position, the game is over. The bots often know when you launch torps and they always know where you are. Kamakaze sisters are great in randoms, just kinda meh in coop.

Ships that are long range snipers. Often can't do damage fast enough compared to the brawlers.

Ships with radar lose most to the advantage that provides. Bots rarely hide. Hydro however is still valuable.

On the other hand, ships that have smoke are much better in coop as the bots have almost no idea how to deal with it except to charge. A caveat to this would be the heavy cruisers with smoke are probably about the same. The bots still can't deal with the smoke but their charging will quickly get them within smoke firing concealment limits.

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Against Bots/Ai, All ships are good to play/learn from...

In Randoms and Ranked, it depends what tier and what you role you love to play.

One thing for sure, I would stay away from 127MM guns since the implementation of the IFHE changes... Except for CO-op.

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6 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

In general I would think certain ship capabilities would be worse in coop than in randoms.

Ships that rely on stealth and sneaking around are at gimped in coop. By the time you sneak into your ambush position, the game is over. The bots often know when you launch torps and they always know where you are. Kamakaze sisters are great in randoms, just kinda meh in coop.

Ships that are long range snipers. Often can't do damage fast enough compared to the brawlers.

Ships with radar lose most to the advantage that provides. Bots rarely hide. Hydro however is still valuable.

On the other hand, ships that have smoke are much better in coop as the bots have almost no idea how to deal with it except to charge. A caveat to this would be the heavy cruisers with smoke are probably about the same. The bots still can't deal with the smoke but their charging will quickly get them within smoke firing concealment limits.

For the BBs it's more feasible: close range and blast away.

 

My Yamato and Musashi are Secondary Spec, for example, and I close range to fire away with both main and secondary gunfire.   But Tier IX-X IJN BBs have some secondary range to them in such builds, while tech tree USN, RN BBs have garbage a.f. secondaries up and down the tech trees.  They have issues with range and / or reload.  Even Montana's secondaries are still garbage.

 

In PVP people would laugh at a Secondary Spec Yamato-class :Smile_teethhappy:  For Co-op it's great.

It also helps that Yamato's Legendary lets her improve main battery accuracy via Slot 6 while still taking SBM1 in Slot 3 for a Secondaries Build.

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IJN torpedo boats are, with only one premium and two tech tree exceptions, pretty bad in coop but pretty good in randoms, provided you know how to play them. Given the ability of bots to Matrix dodge torpedoes unless you're cross-firing or very, very close to them, the slow-firing, heavy hitting torps of the IJN are not great options given that you also have garbage guns to work with. Everything up to and including the Fubuki are especially awful, with the Kagero and Yugamo climbing into "mediocre" territory by either using the torpedo booster to ensure hits on bots or by relying on their six reasonable but not great guns. The three ships in the line that do reasonably well in coop in my experience are the Akatsuki, Shinonome, and Shimakaze.

The Akatsuki is the first tech tree IJN torpedo boat to get six guns, and her 3x3 fast-reloading torpedo tubes allows her to set up cross-fires for bots to ensure hits. She can also stagger fire to just keep a steady stream of torpedoes headed toward the bots. And her guns are decent.
The Shinonome is essentially a Tier 6 Akatsuki, so same strengths apply, just toned down a little bit.
The Shimakaze can create torpedo soup and also has reasonably fast-firing guns.

The IJN gunboat line is similarly limited until the Akizuki, though the Minekaze does alright on account of fast reloading torps and multiple launchers. Garbage guns, though.

Edited by Hermetica

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tell me about it...

i was getting frustrated in randoms with the tier 3 and 4 RU bb's due to the cv/dd torp spam..   tried coop, but between 36 second reload painfully slow turret traverse and slow speed... i'd maybe get 3 or 4 long range shots off before the match ended....  gave me the impression i must be terribad...

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22 hours ago, Hermetica said:

IJN torpedo boats are, with only one premium and two tech tree exceptions, pretty bad in coop but pretty good in randoms, provided you know how to play them. Given the ability of bots to Matrix dodge torpedoes unless you're cross-firing or very, very close to them, the slow-firing, heavy hitting torps of the IJN are not great options given that you also have garbage guns to work with. Everything up to and including the Fubuki are especially awful, with the Kagero and Yugamo climbing into "mediocre" territory by either using the torpedo booster to ensure hits on bots or by relying on their six reasonable but not great guns. The three ships in the line that do reasonably well in coop in my experience are the Akatsuki, Shinonome, and Shimakaze.

The Akatsuki is the first tech tree IJN torpedo boat to get six guns, and her 3x3 fast-reloading torpedo tubes allows her to set up cross-fires for bots to ensure hits. She can also stagger fire to just keep a steady stream of torpedoes headed toward the bots. And her guns are decent.
The Shinonome is essentially a Tier 6 Akatsuki, so same strengths apply, just toned down a little bit.
The Shimakaze can create torpedo soup and also has reasonably fast-firing guns.

The IJN gunboat line is similarly limited until the Akizuki, though the Minekaze does alright on account of fast reloading torps and multiple launchers. Garbage guns, though.

IJN DDs are actually quite good for Co-op because of their very powerful torpedoes, some of the hardest hitting in the game.  Later they get the F3 torpedo option which reloads quickly, hit very hard, and have quick speed.  Long range torps are meaningless.

 

DD guns for most part in Co-op are irrelevant, unless they're crazy super Dakka DDs such as the Akizuki-line with Harugumo being the pinnacle.

For Co-op DDs, it's all about torpedoes.

Which is why I feel the new IKEA DDs suck so bad in Co-op.  They just have no alpha striking power to them.  They've got fast torps, but no balls, no POWER to them.

 

Anyways, consider that Co-op games are over very quickly, 3-5 minutes typically.  Torpedoes, as long as they have some sort of excellence in their torpedo suite, reign supreme here in Co-op.  There is nothing in Co-op that lands as much damage as a solid torpedo attack in a short amount of time.  And in that capacity, IJN DDs have very hard hitting torpedoes.

4 hours ago, SKurj said:

tell me about it...

i was getting frustrated in randoms with the tier 3 and 4 RU bb's due to the cv/dd torp spam..   tried coop, but between 36 second reload painfully slow turret traverse and slow speed... i'd maybe get 3 or 4 long range shots off before the match ended....  gave me the impression i must be terribad...

Low tiers is all about the DDs.

Low tier Cruisers suck.  Low Tier BBs are too slow, their Main Batteries are short ranged and of the most dubious of accuracy and reload.  Even their Secondaries are trash in range, made even worse by how slow they are.

 

Premium German BB Tier III Konig Albert is deemed OP for Randoms use.  But in Co-op she's useless because of how slow she is.  The powerful Secondary Battery she has is still short ranged, as all Secondaries are in low tiers.  Made even worse by how slow she is.

 

Meanwhile we got things like Clemson and Isokaze in Tier IV devastating everything with their speed and torpedoes.  Clemson can do a "Death Blossom" with torps.  Even lower tier DDs have fast reloading torpedoes.

 

Tier V is where BBs start jumping up in capability, Tier VI even more so, and it only gets better for BBs.  But low tiers?  BBs are horrible.  But even in Tier V-VI, the 21kt BBs got issues.  It's less of a problem for a faster BB like Konig, Warspite, etc. that get around 25kts or so in mid tiers.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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8 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Tier V is where BBs start jumping up in capability, Tier VI even more so, and it only gets better for BBs.  But low tiers?  BBs are horrible.  But even in Tier V-VI, the 21kt BBs got issues.  It's less of a problem for a faster BB like Konig, Warspite, etc. that get around 25kts or so in mid tiers.

Thanks I have had to make the step to randoms to try and get through tier 3 and 4 because coop just wasn't worth it in the low tier RU BB's, so braved a few flags and finally reached T5, which fortunately is also much better for random than T3 and 4.  I at least have some AA at tier 5..

I only have one other BB line below T5 and that's the frenchies but not in a rush there.  Beyond that.. i may only have 1 dd line over tier 4... and only IJN, USN and GER cruisers over T4...

At least once i get around to those I can expect it to improve when i get sick and tired of multiple cv's at tier 3 and 4 in randoms...

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I agree with what @HazeGrayUnderway said. I didn't quote his posts, because they were so long, lol.

German BB's being king of the brawl in Coop? Check.

DD's smacking bots with torpedoes in record times? Check.

Reworked CV's being so GIMPED in such high speed fights? Check. This is actually one of my biggest pet-peeve of this game. WeeGee went through all that trouble, angering so many players, and the end result is something nearly unplayable in a "whack - a - mole bot" game mode. Go figure. :Smile_smile:

Low speed low-and-mid tier BB's also getting a short end of the stick? Check. Still, they're not as bad as the reworked CV's, since they at least have meaty alpha.

And IJN DD's are actually one of better ships to use for the Coop mode, simply for the stealth + heavy torpedoes combo. Yeah, bots are torpedo beat masters, and they know where everyone is at all times. However, that doesn't mean the concealment is useless in Coop. It still protects you from being shot by the bots, and IJN DD's have some of the best concealment in the game. And their torpedoes are so punchy that they can rack up damage and kills in a blink of an eye, by luring and ambushing the bots at close range. As matter of fact, ships like the Kamikaze are actually very strong for Coop, since they also reload their torpedoes so fast.

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Am disappointed this isn't about ships using a consumable and transforming into a bigger meaner ship....

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