Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
murder_0ne

Buff the Z52

20 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

474
[F4E]
Members
339 posts
6,806 battles

Hear me out first before just saying no.

The Z52  is little more than a "sidegrade" vs. an actual upgrade over the Z46. The Z52 has the exact same guns/torps as the 46, with the torps getting 500m more range and 2kt speed improvement. DPM remains the same for both guns and torps. Z52 gets slightly more range than the Z46. Z52 has a slight increase in HP but the Z46 has better concealment and a better turning circle.

Compare this to basically any other DD line. Japanese, Russian, UK, American. The T10 ships all have large increases in overall performance with HP, DPM, concealment etc. vs. their T9 counterparts.

Frankly, I'm not asking for a big buff. I'd be happy with the same turning circle and concealment as the Z46 and maybe a little more HP. That's not asking for much. 

Thanks for reading. Now go ahead and tell me how I've lost my mind and the Z52 is out performing every other DD in the game.

  • Cool 4
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,106
[FOXEH]
Banned
14,364 posts
20,619 battles
16 minutes ago, murder_0ne said:

Compare this to basically any other DD line.

Except for the Pan-Asian DD line, where the tier 10 ship is actually worse than the tier 9 ship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
474
[F4E]
Members
339 posts
6,806 battles
Just now, Umikami said:

Except for the Pan-Asian DD line, where the tier 10 ship is actually worse than the tier 9 ship.

Yeah agreed. It's pretty terrible. That needs fixing too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,022 posts
3,050 battles
1 minute ago, hexeris said:

Fletcher is probably better than the Gearing too.

Gearing has stupid range torps and slightly better guns.. but I always preferred the Fletch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
474
[F4E]
Members
339 posts
6,806 battles
8 minutes ago, LunchCutter said:

Gearing has stupid range torps and slightly better guns.. but I always preferred the Fletch.

I think I set my Gearing up weird compared to most people: I do torp reload skill/module, torp speed mod and torp speed skill and end up with 13.5km torps that do 75kt with a decent reload. It makes the Gearing a really great torp boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,454
[SALVO]
Members
26,129 posts
29,108 battles
54 minutes ago, murder_0ne said:

Hear me out first before just saying no.

The Z52  is little more than a "sidegrade" vs. an actual upgrade over the Z46. The Z52 has the exact same guns/torps as the 46, with the torps getting 500m more range and 2kt speed improvement. DPM remains the same for both guns and torps. Z52 gets slightly more range than the Z46. Z52 has a slight increase in HP but the Z46 has better concealment and a better turning circle.

Compare this to basically any other DD line. Japanese, Russian, UK, American. The T10 ships all have large increases in overall performance with HP, DPM, concealment etc. vs. their T9 counterparts.

Frankly, I'm not asking for a big buff. I'd be happy with the same turning circle and concealment as the Z46 and maybe a little more HP. That's not asking for much. 

Thanks for reading. Now go ahead and tell me how I've lost my mind and the Z52 is out performing every other DD in the game.

I find that the Z52 is a better DD hunter than the Z46 because 2 of its 3 turrets are up front, while 2 of the 3 turrets on the Z46 are in the rear.  DDs with more rear facing turrets tend to be better kiters while DDs with more bow facing turrets tend to be better attackers in DD vs DD fights.

Moving on...

I don't know that a small buff would be sufficient, though a buff to concealment down to, say, 5.8 km would be pretty large and make the Z52 a much more effective boat.  Right now, the Z52 does seem sort of meh.  It'd be nicer if it had somewhat better concealment and a little longer ranged torpedoes, because right now it seems to be very "decently mediocre" in almost every way.  Not bad, but you don't see it showing up in clan battles (with better clans) much because it doesn't have anything strong enough to justify bringing it.  I suppose that the Z isn't that bad in randoms, all things considered, if you're a pretty good DD player.  But it would be nice if the Z could get a little loving.  For me, the biggies would be concealment and torp range, though I suppose that they could buff the gun reload to make it more gun boat-y instead.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,226 posts
5,930 battles
1 hour ago, murder_0ne said:

Compare this to basically any other DD line. Japanese, Russian, UK, American. The T10 ships all have large increases in overall performance with HP, DPM, concealment etc. vs. their T9 counterparts.

 

I can only speak for the Japanese line, but the t10 DDs there aren't straight upgrades either. Shima is less stealthy than Yuugumo and can't run TRB(4x4 is far better than 3x5 with slower reload), is a bit faster but turns worse. Kita is much, much stealthier than Haru and is far more maneuverable too, obviously Haru has more DPM though. Haru also eats full AP pens which compared to Kita makes it more fragile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,223
[KAG]
Members
1,351 posts
12,294 battles
44 minutes ago, murder_0ne said:

I think I set my Gearing up weird compared to most people: I do torp reload skill/module, torp speed mod and torp speed skill and end up with 13.5km torps that do 75kt with a decent reload. It makes the Gearing a really great torp boat.

I tried a gun bote Gearing build but it just eats damage without a heal.  Switched to a dual purpose roll with a torp reload build and 16.5 km torps.  I do much better in it, and I find it superior to Fletcher.

Z52, is a straight up DD hunter, period.  It does one thing exceptionally well.  Rush a cap, point your nose to an escape route, load AP and wait till you’re spotted.  Once you are, pop smoke and hydro and start poking holes.  I think if the Z52 has a heal, it would be a whole new ship.  A slight DPM buff maybe to make up for the lacking HE dmg, but I enjoy playing it.  It’s a solid ship all around, it just eats damage because it’s a big DD.

Edited by BarneyStyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,068
[LWA]
Members
1,245 posts

I got into a knife fight using a Z-52 vs a Khab over a cap.  I was surprise how well her AP shells just melted the Khab.  The german hydro is a huge advantage.  The Z-52's main weakness is her torpedoes as they do relatively low damage compared to other DDs (except the new Euro DDs).  I perfectly ambushed a Yamato and put all eight torpedoes into her, the yammy just shrugged it off.  Low damage torpedoes vs high percentage Torpedo Defense System = 1/4 life Yammy…..and an angry one at that.  

What would help the Z-52 immensely is to replace the speed boost with a repair party consumable.  Would that make her OP or just make her more competitive? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,779
[FEM]
Members
9,192 posts
11,985 battles

While I don't think Z-52 is a bad ship, I would agree Z-46 is better. Unfortunately, due to the hydro it has, I doubt WG will seriously consider buffing it until it's dead last in the standings. After all, they murdered poor YY, and the laughable buffs it just got didn't remotely come close to fixing that. WG isn't overly interested in making DD's better, anyway, they get far more nerfs than they do buffs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,142
[PISD]
Members
1,844 posts
6,103 battles
6 minutes ago, BarneyStyle said:

I tried a gun bote Gearing build but it just eats damage without a heal.  Switched to a dual purpose roll with a torp reload build and 16.5 km torps.  I do much better in it, and I find it superior to Fletcher.

Z52, is a straight up DD hunter, period.  It does one thing exceptionally well.  Rush a cap, point your nose to an escape route, load AP and wait till you’re spotted.  Once you are, pop smoke and hydro and start poking holes.  I think if the Z52 has a heal, it would be a whole new ship.  A slight DPM buff maybe to make up for the lacking HE dmg, but I enjoy playing it.  It’s a solid ship all around, it just eats damage because it’s a big DD.

The problem: if she can ne competitive with AP, her HE dpm is the lowest of all tier 10. And her AP tend to either over pen or bounce as soon as the other DD stay angled. And sure she is a blast to play against captain that turn broadside, but when people know how to counter her Z 52 becomes almost useless.

 

But she don’t need that much more and the heal is probably too much. I would be more for an improve autobounce angle on her AP, maybe wirh a better krupp to do more reliable damage on CA. That way she would be more usable in knife fight with here AP while keeping her flavor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
256
[FG]
Members
566 posts
4,806 battles

I think the best buff right now for the Z-52 would be short fuse for its AP and also maybe better pen angles.

It has really high AP alpha damage, but without short fuse, it just overpens DDs 90% of the time, meaning your AP DPM is never as good as it should be. Couple this with awful HE DPM, and you will find most DDs will out-trade a Z-52 without too much issue. I feel this is a relatively small change, but one that could bring it back into relevance.

Other options are a HE pen buff (though it will still have poor DPM), or even a small heal. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
474
[F4E]
Members
339 posts
6,806 battles
49 minutes ago, SovereignEagle said:

I think the best buff right now for the Z-52 would be short fuse for its AP and also maybe better pen angles.

It has really high AP alpha damage, but without short fuse, it just overpens DDs 90% of the time, meaning your AP DPM is never as good as it should be. Couple this with awful HE DPM, and you will find most DDs will out-trade a Z-52 without too much issue. I feel this is a relatively small change, but one that could bring it back into relevance.

Other options are a HE pen buff (though it will still have poor DPM), or even a small heal. 

I think improved pen angles and shorter fuse is a brilliant idea.

Edited by murder_0ne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43
[R-F]
Members
137 posts
9,320 battles

Right now it only has the 6km hydro as its good gimmick, I agree that changing the AP would be good as it was supposed to be the lines "flavor".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,734
[O7]
Members
1,035 posts
5,555 battles

Yup, currently Z52 trades everything for 1 gimmick that is extremely situational, but most importantly, does not fit the current role of DDs at all.

The only ship a Z52 can beat in a fight in Yue Yang, any other ship will hunt down Z52 with ease, even Shimakaze

Z52 either needs a better smoke or better AP penetration to work. Buffing the HE penetration to 1/4 would be the easiest solution but that would turn Z52 into another generic gun boat.

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,536
[PSA]
Members
5,116 posts
3,732 battles

Z52, and the German DDs in general need some serious love. People have known this for ages. They were considered balanced back before radar became omnipresent, and back when ship killing permafloods were a thing. Now, they are just exceptionally weak and their role as up close cap contesters has been completely taken over by the British DDs. Z52's hydro is now only useful mid game once radar ships have been destroyed ... and they pay for it by having bad concealment, bad agility, bad guns, bad torps, bad smoke

So yes, please buff this ship. Please buff the line as a whole.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,226 posts
5,930 battles

They should probably just give the whole line short fuse AP with improved pen angles. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,728 posts
11,839 battles

Giving the line, parts of it, or just the z52 the 1/4 pen that the german BBs and cruisers get would be easiest to implement.  HE alpha and DPM overall isn't great, but it would give it more flexibility.  I like the idea of making the AP better more than the HE idea.  Not sure if giving both would make them too strong with the other stats. 

 

 

Z52 suffers from the same issue many other tier 10 DDs have.  The tier 9s are good to amazing and they just dont jump enough in power level. You don't really have this issue with the cruisers or BBs.  With that said, idk what is the best way to handle it.  the tier 9s dont really need nerfed(or a major nerf) and the tier 10s are still strong, so giving them a big boost may be overkill. 

 

At least the Z52 doesn't take full pens from BBs anymore.  That was one of the biggest differences compared to the tier 9 where it didnt happen as often. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,454
[SALVO]
Members
26,129 posts
29,108 battles
11 hours ago, BarneyStyle said:

I tried a gun bote Gearing build but it just eats damage without a heal.  Switched to a dual purpose roll with a torp reload build and 16.5 km torps.  I do much better in it, and I find it superior to Fletcher.

Z52, is a straight up DD hunter, period.  It does one thing exceptionally well.  Rush a cap, point your nose to an escape route, load AP and wait till you’re spotted.  Once you are, pop smoke and hydro and start poking holes.  I think if the Z52 has a heal, it would be a whole new ship.  A slight DPM buff maybe to make up for the lacking HE dmg, but I enjoy playing it.  It’s a solid ship all around, it just eats damage because it’s a big DD.

I disagree that the Z52 is strictly a DD hunter.  Arguably, it used to be a DD hunter, but IMO its lack of DPM compared to newer DD lines reduces her effectiveness in this role.  Also, I think that the Z52 has always been a pretty good torp boat for randoms with its fast loading torps.

 

10 hours ago, DolphinPrincess said:

Yup, currently Z52 trades everything for 1 gimmick that is extremely situational, but most importantly, does not fit the current role of DDs at all.

The only ship a Z52 can beat in a fight in Yue Yang, any other ship will hunt down Z52 with ease, even Shimakaze

Z52 either needs a better smoke or better AP penetration to work. Buffing the HE penetration to 1/4 would be the easiest solution but that would turn Z52 into another generic gun boat.

Dolphin, better AP pen would be a rather situational buff.  I'm not sure that it would do the Z any good in a DD v DD dogfight.  And the Z really isn't a strong gunboat in the same way that one would call the two Russian t10 DDs.  The Z52 seems like a rather situational gunboat vs larger ships to me.  Heck, even the 1/4 HE pen thing would seem rather situational for pretty much the same reason.

I think that these things you're suggesting don't get to the heart of the matter, don't get to the areas that I think that Z is weak, i.e. its concealment and perhaps its torp range.  Of course, I see the German DDs more as torp boats than some of you guys do.  I see their ability to hunt other DDs as fairly secondary, particularly since the RN DDs have come along and largely taken over this role.

Stepping back, here's a different take that just occurred to me.  The Z-52 is a decent  but very middle of the road sort of DD.  It has decent guns, decent torps, and decent concealment.   None of those things stand out.  And because of that, it would be possible to buff 1-2 of them and effectively lean the Z into being a stronger torp boat or a stronger gunboat.  If they wanted to make her a stronger gunboat and DD hunter, buff her gun down to, say, a 3 sec reload.  And if they wanted to make her a stronger torp boat, buff her concealment down to around 5.8 km and perhaps increase her torp range out to 12 km.

 

That's all for now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×