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sargentmki

What it takes to lose a COOP game

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I haven't lost many PVE matches, and the very few I have lost (like maybe 5?) I've lost because of the following:

1. Half of my team is AI (so 4-5 real players)

2. There is an AFK player

3. There is a platoon of human players

4. The platoon of human players go together away from the AI, and rest of human players and proceed to fight nothing

5. I'm unable to carry a bunch of suicidal AI, an AFK player, and useless platoons by myself :'(

 

I almost lost a few other games, but I was the CV (the only time I really drive CVs since I still feel like I suck haha) and was able to pull it out in the end, but in other surface ships fighting 3-5 red ships at the same time usually doesn't work regardless of how hard I play haha.

In COOP games you lose, you usually have a bunch of things "wrong" in the match, what sort of tomfoolery have you seen that you can't for the life of you overcome?

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Most common one I've seen is a half bot team, 3 or 4 aggressive players and 1 player whose first shot on target is after everyone else is dead. This happened this evening,  a full health Tirpitz managed to be left on 1% health while having broadside on a half health Missouri for most of the encounter. He did manage to clip the MO with one torp out of his spread of 4, while he was beached. Finally the Tirp killed MO with 6% remaining but with 2 fires burning.  These went out with him on 1% health. Despite exhortations from those of us still left in the room to cap he proceeded to stick his nose out from behind an island and the only bot ship left took him out by sneezing at him. I also had a game today with a Nicholas who had 20 games, that's 20 games on the account not on the Nicholas WTH!

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Yeah, 5 or more green bots means your team has to fight smarter than your normal coop point grab. I actually prefer having at least 3 bots to make the game last longer.

In a normal coop game, you should easily be able to handle one AFK player. Its gonna take several other factors (too many bots, really bad team) to make that a loss.

How does a division make things worse? Unless they are intentionally tanking the game or are all really bad players.

It makes it a real challenge (i.e. you will have to play very smart and still need some luck) but it is possible to win as the only human on the team. I've done it and am hardly unicum level.

As your final statement indicates, most Coop loses are the result of a perfect storm of things going wrong. Some you can compensate for, some you have to count on a little luck (your green bots being as good as the red bots, RNG favoring your side). 

 

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I play at odd hours.  My work schedule is 4 AM to 1 pm, so my dogs wake me up at 3 AM on my days off.  That means I am playing very early at least twice a week.  It is very common for me to have NO humans or at best 1-2 for my first 10 or so matches those days.  If I am playing a non carry ship (weak CL or BB), then I usually end up with a loss.  A few times I have had a full potato farm for a team, so that's a loss no matter what.  And then there are days I just can't hit the broadside of a barn.

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31 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

How does a division make things worse? Unless they are intentionally tanking the game or are all really bad players.

I should of combined the two points mentioning divisions, since a division alone is fine, but a division that works together to "play less then average" ends up being almost worse then an AFK player haha. (I have had 1 player purposely try to tank the game, didn't result in a loss which was fantastic but a scary prospect haha)

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The battles are most often lost when Random players are trying to finish easy missions and directives in Co op. Random players that don't play many Co ops don't understand the bot meta.

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I just lost one yesterday with only 2 bots on my team.  I was in a cv and did almost 170k damage and had 4 kills.  After the match not one of my teammates even had 200 xp.  It was pitiful for a tier 6 game.

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13 hours ago, sargentmki said:

I haven't lost many PVE matches, and the very few I have lost (like maybe 5?) I've lost because of the following:

1. Half of my team is AI (so 4-5 real players)

2. There is an AFK player

3. There is a platoon of human players

4. The platoon of human players go together away from the AI, and rest of human players and proceed to fight nothing

5. I'm unable to carry a bunch of suicidal AI, an AFK player, and useless platoons by myself :'(

 

I almost lost a few other games, but I was the CV (the only time I really drive CVs since I still feel like I suck haha) and was able to pull it out in the end, but in other surface ships fighting 3-5 red ships at the same time usually doesn't work regardless of how hard I play haha.

In COOP games you lose, you usually have a bunch of things "wrong" in the match, what sort of tomfoolery have you seen that you can't for the life of you overcome?

A common ingredient for losses in Co-op I've seen to be a bunch of Cruiser players and no Battleships, or next to no DDs.  Most especially true with High Tier firepower.

 

DDs put stuff down harshly with their torpedoes, putting the bot team in the red very early.  A big reason why we get those quick matches.

Battleships have a key factor:  Staying Power.

 

Most of my ships I run stock consumables to save money, save Repair Party of course.  But Battleships?  I keep DCP2 & RP2 whenever possible.  Because there are many times where I was left to salvage a stupid game with my Battleship.  I'm often left alone to fight 2, 3, as many as 4 bots at the same time.  A Cruiser isn't typically going to do well in those kind of odds and will die from focus fire before doing any real damage, kills.  But Battleships?  They can take the punishment, especially the German BBs with Mega Secondaries wading into them.  A Battleship I view as an "insurance card" in Co-op.

 

I remember spectating a Co-op game after I sunk.  I was playing some Cruiser, died, and watched the last two players, a Hindenburg and Minotaur take on 4 rushing bot ships:  3 BBs and a Cruiser.

I knew they were going to lose against those bots.

Hindenburg was halfway dead already.  The Minotaur was in good health but I had zero faith in Mino's capability to survive.

The bots simply rushed them.  Minotaur stealth torped all torpedoes it could and then dropped Smoke and started spamming guns.  Hindenburg was getting focused hard because Minotaur was undetected in Smoke.

The bots combed through Minotaur's torpedoes, he maybe got 1-2 torpedo hits, which is hard to get many of when ships are head on into torpedoes, they're very easy to comb.

Minotaur's shells were all getting bounced off the bows, turrets, conning towers of the BBs.  Hindenburg finally dies from the focus fire.

Minotaur was left alone in her smoke with now nobody left to spot for her, and the bots were coming.

She sailed away, out of smoke, but of course she gets spotted and gets whacked by the 3 BBs very quickly.

Loss.

 

Had there been a Battleship player with the team, he'd easily tank all that and win.  It's easy taking multiple opponents at the same time with a BB in Co-op, and win, not so with a Cruiser.  It can be done still with a Cruiser, but you have to play to perfection and hope RNG saves you from those BB salvos.  A Battleship will take the hits, smile, and asks for more as secondary and main batteries are blazing away.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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11 hours ago, Sovereigndawg said:

The battles are most often lost when Random players are trying to finish easy missions and directives in Co op. Random players that don't play many Co ops don't understand the bot meta.

I avoided this trap, I think, by always having one foot firmly in the co-op camp. I have about twice the number of co-op battles as randoms, so with my battle count it means I'm no stranger to either mode, but I do see a lot of co-op camping and it's easy to see who plays Randoms near-exclusively. 

It seems to me that the number of stupid losses is on the rise. Not the battles with one or two humans where the green bots fold and the red ones have both Roid Rage and the hand of RNGesus with them - those are the ones which are no disgrace to lose. But four or five humans should be able to beat the bots every time, and it's horrifying to see a bunch of incompetent green bots come in ahead of one or more humans who weren't AFK.

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i blame the bots!! it wasn't my fault...

I've been caught out more than once.. by a charging cruiser that I just can't kill in time in my bb, that then pulls along side and clobbers me with torps...  i need to git gud obviously..

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5 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

A common ingredient for losses in Co-op I've seen to be a bunch of Cruiser players and no Battleships, or next to no DDs.  Most especially true with High Tier firepower.

Of course, in coop, if you don't have any BBs, they don't either. At least at the start of the match. Some high tier cruisers  also transcend the threshold of BB firepower. Like DDs, human driven cruisers SHOULD wreck their bot counterparts because the humans (typically) can use their consumables advantageously. Now if the humans are unskilled or overconfident (they're just bots...CHARGE!) , things can go south faster in cruisers than in BBs and a cascade effect can set in.

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5 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Of course, in coop, if you don't have any BBs, they don't either. At least at the start of the match. Some high tier cruisers  also transcend the threshold of BB firepower. Like DDs, human driven cruisers SHOULD wreck their bot counterparts because the humans (typically) can use their consumables advantageously. Now if the humans are unskilled or overconfident (they're just bots...CHARGE!) , things can go south faster in cruisers than in BBs and a cascade effect can set in.

Oh, you can still have Battleships with no Battleship players, i.e. the 3-4 BBs of our team are all bots, and they found ways to all die early, leaving some flimsy Cruiser players to fight against 3-4 enemy Bots.  I've seen that go real ugly for the Cruiser players because they just don't have the staying power.

 

Players SHOULD do well against the Bots, but I've played enough times to see players do the stupidest things.

Like a few days ago while playing my BB, I watched some Benson player that was at first hiding behind my BB, then surged out to torpedo rush a bot Chapayev.  Except the bot Chappy torpedoed the sh*t out of Benson before the DD player got off any torps :Smile_teethhappy:  There's all kinds of fail out there.

 

Add a few fail players getting rekt early while doing nothing, and then you got those situations where it's 1-2 players left against 6 bots.  Yeah, I had plenty of those.  2 Cruisers having to fight 6 bots, especially if there's BBs that will take a while to bring down, it can go badly for the Cruiser players very easily.  Most especially if the Cruiser has no high alpha damage capability and relies on Cruiser guns that need lots of time to do their work. 

A long range spamming Cruiser can only do so much if it's left to win the game against 3-4 bots, especially if those bots got BBs.  There's only so much WASD Hax you can do until enough of those bots' gunfire connects enough times to bring the Cruiser down.

Even the ever-awesome Hindenburg can only do so much.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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I had a series of 2 human games yesterday evening all of which were DD and CA humans with BB heavy bots. I prefer to be in a BB when in this situation purely for the high damage pool you have. Checking mxstat the humans (my boat is second) were Gearing/Worcester,  Gearing/Salem and Donskoi/Z-46. In all three games we won by talking to each other, hanging back slightly and overcoming our natural COOP instinct to get in there fast and mix it up. There seems to be a lull on the NA server on COOP around about 5-7 pm EST, I suspect people are getting their evening meal and such and so you tend to get bot heavy games around then.

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5 hours ago, Efros said:

In all three games we won by talking to each other, hanging back slightly and overcoming our natural COOP instinct to get in there fast and mix it up.

I usually try to point out when the team is bot heavy and the players need to play smart, not like typical coop damage [edited] chasers. Group up and don't expect things to be easy(ish). Many don't listen and try to play normal coop "strategies". Really can't get anyone to listen when I'm the only human. Then I will hang back and try to trail the largest group of bots. Sometimes I can pull it off.

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i am playing at low tiers ... 3 and 4 trying to bring some lines up... and in a BB .. one match you can't get to the fight fast enough, next match its an oh sht...  

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42 minutes ago, SKurj said:

i am playing at low tiers ... 3 and 4 trying to bring some lines up... and in a BB .. one match you can't get to the fight fast enough, next match its an oh sht...  

Low tier Co-op is hell for Battleships because of the slow speed.  It's heaven for the Destroyers though.  Fast when everything around them is slow.  Torpedoes start picking up on power while reload is still quick.  You also got in Tier IV nice specimens like Clemson.  Tier III Derzki spams tons of torpedoes in short order.  Etc.

 

By the time these ultra slow BBs arrive at half decent effective gun range, half the red bot ships are already dead and the game is about to end.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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fastest game today was around 3:57...  just came out of one 4:30 and I only got a few shots off for a total of less than 14k dmg before the game ended.  hope they stretch out abit longer after 9.4

 

I have had some 90k and even 120k+ dmg games today at tier 4...  but that's not the norm.  The RU bb isn't the slowest thankfully but the 36s reload hurts when you gotta get the damage done quick...

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On 4/6/2020 at 4:43 PM, Sovereigndawg said:

The battles are most often lost when Random players are trying to finish easy missions and directives in Co op. Random players that don't play many Co ops don't understand the bot meta.

Now you're just being biased, Dawg! :Smile_trollface:

Random players know everything, just ask one! 

All kidding aside; co-op is a totally different beast. 

Also; there is no such thing as a friendly bot. The green ones are there to either;

1. Commit suicide by ramming their Red Team counterpart; thus denying you filthy scrub humans the XP they represent.

2. Kill-securing the last few HP from your target; thus denying you the kill ribbon and some small amount of XP.

3. Block your shooting lane that you have staked out early in the game, thus denying you torp lanes or fields of fire.

4. Flat out torping the living daylights out of you and your entire locality with a plethora of water-borne explosive pinata`s. 

5. Pushing you out of you smoke, or jamming you up so you cannot maneuver while in smoke and getting the $%^&* shot out of you.

6. General nefarious conduct worthy of a T/K'ing were such a thing even possible anymore. (Yes Skynet, WG I'm kidding, mostly. Mostly)

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Curly__san said:

Now you're just being biased, Dawg! :Smile_trollface:

Random players know everything, just ask one! 

All kidding aside; co-op is a totally different beast. 

Also; there is no such thing as a friendly bot. The green ones are there to either;

1. Commit suicide by ramming their Red Team counterpart; thus denying you filthy scrub humans the XP they represent.

2. Kill-securing the last few HP from your target; thus denying you the kill ribbon and some small amount of XP.

3. Block your shooting lane that you have staked out early in the game, thus denying you torp lanes or fields of fire.

4. Flat out torping the living daylights out of you and your entire locality with a plethora of water-borne explosive pinata`s. 

5. Pushing you out of you smoke, or jamming you up so you cannot maneuver while in smoke and getting the $%^&* shot out of you.

6. General nefarious conduct worthy of a T/K'ing were such a thing even possible anymore. (Yes Skynet, WG I'm kidding, mostly. Mostly)

 

 

 

 

heh i think we can all sleep soundly knowing skynet will never go sentient within the weegee organization

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