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Taichunger

I know it is Russian and therefore sancrosanct, but for the love all that is holy on heaven and earth, can we nerf the Kremlin meaningfully

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The comically OP armor and the comically OP guns for starters. 

Not this AA nerf [edited]. Not a minor shave off its damage, but a meaningful nerf to a completely borked ship.

Ah, forget it. the devs don't care. Why am I even asking? 

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9 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

The comically OP armor and the comically OP guns for starters. 

Not this AA nerf [edited]. Not a minor shave off its damage, but a meaningful nerf to a completely borked ship.

Ah, forget it. the devs don't care. Why am I even asking? 

There’s an saying old saying “ If you can’t beat them . Join them “ . You can always grind for one . 

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38 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

The comically OP armor and the comically OP guns for starters. 

Not this AA nerf [edited]. Not a minor shave off its damage, but a meaningful nerf to a completely borked ship.

Ah, forget it. the devs don't care. Why am I even asking? 

Lol you must not read patch notes then cause the Kremlins accuracy has been receiving nerfs.

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Apart from the whole 457mm powercreep settling in, I don't really have an issue with the Kremlin's guns.

The armour however, is a problem, and one that WG seem reluctant to acknowledge, let alone fix. The armour of the line in general is so good at everything (and the Kremlin is the worst offender) that they had to nerf them by limiting the heals and DCP available (which is suspiciously well countered by Mr Kuznetzov).

Reducing the deck armour and main belt thickness are two very simple fixes to make the Kremlin a little less of an idiot-proof ship. 

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28 minutes ago, Ranari said:

Lol you must not read patch notes then cause the Kremlins accuracy has been receiving nerfs.

Zero effect then.

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26 minutes ago, SovereignEagle said:

Apart from the whole 457mm powercreep settling in, I don't really have an issue with the Kremlin's guns.

The armour however, is a problem, and one that WG seem reluctant to acknowledge, let alone fix. The armour of the line in general is so good at everything (and the Kremlin is the worst offender) that they had to nerf them by limiting the heals and DCP available (which is suspiciously well countered by Mr Kuznetzov).

Reducing the deck armour and main belt thickness are two very simple fixes to make the Kremlin a little less of an idiot-proof ship. 

The guns are still too good. Had a Krem put three cits on me at 21 kms today. That sort of shooting happens a lot with that ship. It performs much too well at range. 

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1 hour ago, Taichunger said:

The comically OP armor and the comically OP guns for starters. 

Not this AA nerf [edited]. Not a minor shave off its damage, but a meaningful nerf to a completely borked ship.

Ah, forget it. the devs don't care. Why am I even asking? 

Of course they care. See how much effort they put into stacking glorious soviet bias upon that ship?

 

As for nerfs... the only functional nerf that thing can have to make it fair is to remove that super-accuracy bonus it gets under 16km. Game has german ships with strong armor all around.. Kremlin has strong armor and its ok if its made HE resistant with that top deck armor... its ok if it has a nose that Yamato can't hope to pen. Its not ok however to have the thing rotate those turrets faster than cruisers and fire them with GPS accuracy. 

The moment you remove that accuracy the ship becomes strong but fair. 

 

...but we all know that never happens in WGland. The fantasy that the soviet union built ships that up to the 1990's would've been impossible to build and fielded them against 1920's designed and built enemies is something that keeps Putin stroking his kartofel. 

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I am not complaining but compared to Kremlin's armor protection, the RN Tier X BB Conqueror and Thunderer are like some extra-large heavy cruisers with 32mm deck armor. Of course, the Conqueror has the magic healing power that Kremlin and Thunderer doesn't have. Note that the Thunderer is a Tier X BB but she has one less 457mm gun than the Kremlin,  much thinner armor protection than Kremlin, less healing than the Conqueror, but somehow, it seems that people enjoy using this ship.

Edited by HMSRodney_1941

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38 minutes ago, Ranari said:

Lol you must not read patch notes then cause the Kremlins accuracy has been receiving nerfs.

No it hasn't. Its the same 'nerf' that the AA was. Irrelevant. 

They changed its sigma to be SLIIIGHTLY worse. However, that nerf does not affect its super-accuracy bonus under 16km. You know, the one that makes the guns have near zero horizontal dispersion? The reason it can land multiple citadels per salvo with ease? The bias accuracy that functionally removes RNG? Yeah, that. 

..and for a ship with 20km range max having slightly worse accuracy than Yamato but with FLAT ballistic trajectories.... that 4km of range it 'suffers' that 'nerf' to its accuracy is utterly irrelevant. 

...and lets not forget how stealthy it is. While Moskva is seen from orbit, Kremlin is as stealthy as a Yamato. 

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Just now, HMSRodney_1941 said:

I am not complaining but compared to Kremlin's armor protection, the RN Tier X BB Conqueror and Thunderer are like some extra-large heavy cruisers with 32mm deck armor. Of course, the Conqueror has the magic healing power that Kremlin and Thunderer doesn't have. Note that the Thunderer is a Tier X BB but she has one less 457mm gun than the Kremlin,  much thinner armor protection than Kremlin, less healing than the Conqueror, but somehow, it seems that people enjoy using this ship.

Conq and Thunderer are the only BBs that dominate Kremlins from range. Brit HE bypasses all soviet bias protections. When you see a thunderer land 14k dmg hits repeatedly on a bow-on kremlin and set it on triple fires nonstop you understand why the changes to IFHE came about. Without the IFHE the brit BBs cant pull those numbers anymore... armor DOES reduce HE damage and IFHE reduced that damage mitigation noticeably. 

Now Thunderer will lose 50% fire chance for that 30% HE damage if he takes IFHE vs Kremlin. Not taking it means Thunderer salvos will only about 10k. 

 

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5 minutes ago, HMSRodney_1941 said:

I am not complaining but compared to Kremlin's armor protection, the RN Tier X BB Conqueror and Thunderer are like some extra-large heavy cruisers with 32mm deck armor. Of course, the Conqueror has the magic healing power that Kremlin and Thunderer doesn't have. Note that the Thunderer is a Tier X BB but she has one less 457mm gun than the Kremlin,  much thinner armor protection than Kremlin, less healing than the Conqueror, but somehow, it seems that people enjoy using this ship.

Thunderer is a fun ship to play, and well balanced with strengths and weaknesses, unlike Krem. The Krem is overpowered and players have been calling for meaningful nerfs of its obviously OP armor and guns since it first appeared. 

But hey, we have some really pretty emblems....

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41 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

The guns are still too good. Had a Krem put three cits on me at 21 kms today. That sort of shooting happens a lot with that ship. It performs much too well at range. 

Kremlins guns can fire a max of 20 km..

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The Kreml's guns have never been OP, it's always been the chassis that allows the Kreml to abuse them most effectively.  *As a thought experiment, just imagine how much more OP the Kreml would be if it could mount other BBs guns.  Just think what legendary Republique guns with a 19 second reload could do on a Kreml chassis, and the Yamato's 460s would be flat upgrade.  

So every time WG nerfs the guns, they don't address the main problem and only make it harder to fix as you can't give the chassis meaningful nerfs without then making the guns too underwhelming.  

Edited by yashma
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7 minutes ago, yashma said:

The Kreml's guns have never been OP, it's always been the chassis that allows the Kreml to abuse them most effectively.  *As a thought experiment, just imagine how much more OP the Kreml would be if it could mount other BBs guns.  Just think what legendary Republique guns with a 19 second reload could do on a Kreml chassis, and the Yamato's 460s would be flat upgrade.  

So every time WG nerfs the guns, they don't address the main problem and only make it harder to fix as you can't give the chassis meaningful nerfs without then making the guns too underwhelming.  

It looks to me that the Russian BB line is the only line build around a gameplay concept and not around historical design. What I mean by that: the other line are in part made of actual ships, the paper ships being upgraded version of the real thing. That do create some limitation on how you can make them works,  the type of weapon, AA, Armor... the inly other exception is the British line that get an armor nerfed with some long range HE spammer idea.

 

the Russian ships seems to be build around the idea of bow tanking. Gun awesome at close range? Check. Armor that mitigate front damage? Check. AA to protect from the air? Check. Best torpedo protection? Check. Best acceleration and reverse speeds? Checks.

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May as well nerf the Krem. Tier 10 is pretty boring anyway. Way too many CVs.

To get where we are going, maybe we could buff the Montana so that it can also launch auto pilot squadrons of torpedo and rocket planes. USN ships are never OP, so this would be fine.

 

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3 hours ago, Taichunger said:

The comically OP armor and the comically OP guns for starters. 

Not this AA nerf [edited]. Not a minor shave off its damage, but a meaningful nerf to a completely borked ship.

Ah, forget it. the devs don't care. Why am I even asking? 

First, in before the lock. Lol.

Second, spot on observation. So much foot dragging by WG on these issues.

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WG should nerf the rear turret traverse angle by 5d on each side.

At least, that's the biggest improvement I saw over the T8 and T9 soviet BBs.

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7 hours ago, Skyfaller said:

Conq and Thunderer are the only BBs that dominate Kremlins from range. Brit HE bypasses all soviet bias protections. When you see a thunderer land 14k dmg hits repeatedly on a bow-on kremlin and set it on triple fires nonstop you understand why the changes to IFHE came about. Without the IFHE the brit BBs cant pull those numbers anymore... armor DOES reduce HE damage and IFHE reduced that damage mitigation noticeably. 

Now Thunderer will lose 50% fire chance for that 30% HE damage if he takes IFHE vs Kremlin. Not taking it means Thunderer salvos will only about 10k. 

 

The statements here about IFHE are false. IFHE does not increase the damage of HE shells. A 1000 alpha damage shell will still deal the same damage with or without IFHE, that is 1000 on a citadel, 300 on a normal pen.

IFHE changes the amount of armour a HE shell can penetrate, again not damage. For example many T8+ 152mm Cruisers with IFHE will allow them to penetrate BB bow armour, changing shatters to normal pens. This is because the HE shell can now penetrate 32mm, the shell however does not increase in damage from what it would do without IFHE against thinner armour. A 152mm HE shell will deal the same damage per shell with or without IFHE against armour it can penetrate. IFHE increases the penetration power of HE.

Taking IFHE on the Thunderer is a poor choice because it doesn't cross any meaningful thresholds and actually lowers your capacity to do damage because it reduces your fire chance.

 

Don't believe me? Simple test, get any 203mm cruiser and take it into a Training room against an inactive bot BB with a 32mm bow (US BBs are good here), make sure your captain doesn't have IFHE. Sail up nice and close for maximum accuracy. Fire just one turret (with HE) at the bow, note the damage. Then ram the BB to finish the match. Check the after game results which breaks down damage by type, again note the HE shell damage from a single turret fired.

Now repeat all of the above with the exact same cruiser and inactive bot BB except have a Captain with IFHE. Again fire a single turret. Ram to finish the match and again note the after battle damage break downs.

Shell for shell the damage will be the same. The only difference will be if in one instance a fire was lit and the other no fire was lit, or a shell misses. But that is why you sail up very close, to make sure the shell hits are identical and all normal pens.

IFHE will not make a Thunderer do more raw alpha damage per shell than not having IFHE.

Damage variations occur because of shell dispersion, hitting parts of the ship such as the main turret, and damage saturation reducing shell damage.

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Try buffing comically UP player skill first and see if that helps. 

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21 hours ago, Skyfaller said:

No it hasn't. Its the same 'nerf' that the AA was. Irrelevant. 

They changed its sigma to be SLIIIGHTLY worse. However, that nerf does not affect its super-accuracy bonus under 16km. You know, the one that makes the guns have near zero horizontal dispersion? The reason it can land multiple citadels per salvo with ease? The bias accuracy that functionally removes RNG? Yeah, that. 

..and for a ship with 20km range max having slightly worse accuracy than Yamato but with FLAT ballistic trajectories.... that 4km of range it 'suffers' that 'nerf' to its accuracy is utterly irrelevant. 

...and lets not forget how stealthy it is. While Moskva is seen from orbit, Kremlin is as stealthy as a Yamato. 

No, it is relevant. Sigma does have a meaningful impact to a ship's accuracy. And the AA module nerf is more meaningful than you think. Once the Kremlin starts taking damage, those mounts disappear, making it a super easy target for carriers. 

The point is that WG recognizes that the Kremlin is too strong and is taking steps to address it. What you want though is something else. 

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I find that an AP salvo to the side from a large cruiser or battleship does a pretty good job of nerfing it.

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21 hours ago, yashma said:

The Kreml's guns have never been OP, it's always been the chassis that allows the Kreml to abuse them most effectively.  *As a thought experiment, just imagine how much more OP the Kreml would be if it could mount other BBs guns.  Just think what legendary Republique guns with a 19 second reload could do on a Kreml chassis, and the Yamato's 460s would be flat upgrade.  

So every time WG nerfs the guns, they don't address the main problem and only make it harder to fix as you can't give the chassis meaningful nerfs without then making the guns too underwhelming.  


I haven’t really thought of the Kremlin in these terms but you are right. Up close , the increased sigma is nice to have but when you think about it it is really the platform itself that allows you to close the distance comfortably. 
 

That and Kuznetsov is ridiculous as well. 

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On 4/6/2020 at 6:17 AM, Ranari said:

No, it is relevant. Sigma does have a meaningful impact to a ship's accuracy. And the AA module nerf is more meaningful than you think. Once the Kremlin starts taking damage, those mounts disappear, making it a super easy target for carriers. 

The point is that WG recognizes that the Kremlin is too strong and is taking steps to address it. What you want though is something else. 

Sigma does not affect horizontal dispersion. If it did, Yamato guns would land all shots at max range like Kremlin does under 16km. Sigma only narrows the ellipse in which the shells can possibly land on. Most BBs have that ellipse be narrower than the length of a broadside BB, Yamato's makes its very narrow compared to others which is why it lands more shells in a narrower spread along the length of said broadside BB. However it is still an ellipse so even if other bbs have 300m+150m and Yamato has 220m+110m (using easy numbers here to illustrate) its horizontal dispersion is effectively no different than other BBs. That's why the shells miss so much in long/short. Kremlin's accuracy bias bonus literally is a significant reduction in horizontal dispersion.. just look at it's shells when they land in water. They all land almost on the same long/short spot whereas a Yamato's will spread out through those 110m. 

When Yamato aims at a broadside ship, a narrower sigma only results in most of your shells landing on a smaller area..like if you aim at under the forwardmost turret at waterline then most shells will land somewhere ~220m left and right of the forwardmost turret. But the horizontal dispersion will have them hit  110m short or long..aka some will splash in the water in front of the hull, others will hit the hull on the upper side armor, some on the mid armor and some shells will miss and go over the deck and splash on the water behind the target. 

Kremlin's bias accuracy bonus makes the same sigma narrowing but the horizontal dispersion is nearly zero..it literally narrows the effect of RNG on that axis. That is why you see that ship landing multiple citadels consistently as the shells are all landing in the same location when it comes to long/short..aka if it aimed at waterline and RNG drifted them a meter above that aimpoint then all shells in salvo will be landing 1m above the aimpoint. So it gets either multiple citadels or monster pen salvo damage... even if the shells normal sigma are spread out wider than Yamato through the target. Hitting 1m above waterline under the forwardmost turret or hitting 1m above the waterline at the middle or at the waterline of the aft turret of the ships still results in a citadel.

 

AA module nerf is irrelevant if the AA is still so strong a CV will not waste planes attacking it unless Kremlin is badly hurt and then its worth sacrificing a squadron to remove it from the game. Before that, its not worth it. Notice also you pose the scenario of Kremlin losing its AA to damage from other ships... well, that would be equally applicable whether there was an AA nerf or not so that's not even a valid point. Look at gameplay videos of players in Kremlin that use the mod that shows them the health status of their AA and secondary guns...and realize Kremlin's AA hardly drops even when heavily damaged as its being pelted by HE nonstop from multiple ships. Compare it to USN BBs which are AA platforms and see how quickly THEIR aa guns drop out from being pelted by a single DD. The bias is stronk ... so stronk Putin rubrubs his stalinrod in glee.  

So nerfs to its AA damage output are irrelevant if the AA remains alive even after a pounding that has dropped its hull health below half. 

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