Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Wthomp

Destroyers should seek cover

80 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

18
[ANCMD]
Members
5 posts
6,318 battles

I have been in too many battles where I keep seeing those with destroyers go right in and get sunk right away. When will players learn that a destroyer works best when they seek cover and conduct ambush operations and use their torpedoes effectively. A destroyer might be very maneuverable but can not withstand more than a couple of hits from a cruiser or battleship. In the 1990's the USS Comte De Grasse took out a US Navy carrier during maneuvers by hiding along a shore line, where they could not be picked up by radar or sonar, and when the carrier came into effective range, they fired everything they had. Got a complete victory and was not sunk. 

  • Cool 1
  • Funny 2
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,386
Members
1,058 posts
7,478 battles
4 minutes ago, Wthomp said:

I have been in too many battles where I keep seeing those with destroyers go right in and get sunk right away. When will players learn that a destroyer works best when they seek cover and conduct ambush operations and use their torpedoes effectively. A destroyer might be very maneuverable but can not withstand more than a couple of hits from a cruiser or battleship. In the 1990's the USS Comte De Grasse took out a US Navy carrier during maneuvers by hiding along a shore line, where they could not be picked up by radar or sonar, and when the carrier came into effective range, they fired everything they had. Got a complete victory and was not sunk. 

lol ambush operations.

- Insert 21st century NSA satellite tasking (aka WoWs Radar)
- Insert OWSF to the 10th power, no risk, CVs
- Insert Hydro proliferation (with X-ray bonus)
- Insert 10k torps at tier 10 against high TDS values
- Insert SAP 
- Insert assured detection
- Insert Situational Awareness given to everyone 
- Insert RPF
- Insert flooding that is nerfed into the ground

Need I go on?

Edited by Varknyn12
  • Cool 8
  • Boring 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,666
[SALVO]
Members
4,440 posts
3,825 battles
2 minutes ago, Wthomp said:

I have been in too many battles where I keep seeing those with destroyers go right in and get sunk right away. When will players learn that a destroyer works best when they seek cover and conduct ambush operations and use their torpedoes effectively. A destroyer might be very maneuverable but can not withstand more than a couple of hits from a cruiser or battleship. In the 1990's the USS Comte De Grasse took out a US Navy carrier during maneuvers by hiding along a shore line, where they could not be picked up by radar or sonar, and when the carrier came into effective range, they fired everything they had. Got a complete victory and was not sunk. 

Hey, welcome to the forums!

Amazing that in this time and age (well 30 years ago maybe isn't this time and age anymore) a ship can set up an ambush.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,728
[INTEL]
Members
13,064 posts
36,051 battles
10 minutes ago, Wthomp said:

I have been in too many battles where I keep seeing those with destroyers go right in and get sunk right away. 

Lots of problems feeding this --

1. The game is flooded with radar at the tiers and the learning curve for newbies against radar is very steep. Many never get much of a chance to learn

2. The game is flooded with Sky Cancer, which removes the only advantage DDs have, their stealth, and makes games unfun for DD players. When the plague of CVs arrived, many good DD players left the game or switched to other ships (I switched to BBs since it sucks to play DD now), while crappier ones moved into CVs since they played DDs because they enjoyed the thought of hitting players while being immune to the consequences. CVs simply made that foolproof. 

3. The crappy MMs below T9 now are pushing players up the tiers faster, with the result that DDs arrive at the next tier with less seasoning than they need to play their ships well. 

4. WG does not create any thresholds for players to pass before acquiring ships of the next tier, nor does it provide training missions and similar. The devs don't care about quality of play. 

The outcome is obvious... so many games you load into the match and every DD player has a sub-50% win rate. 

  • Cool 3
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,272
[SALVO]
Members
24,823 posts
25,896 battles
10 minutes ago, Varknyn12 said:

lol ambush operations.

- Insert 21st century NSA satellite tasking (aka WoWs Radar)
- Insert OWSF to the 10th power, no risk, CVs
- Insert Hydro proliferation (with X-ray bonus)
- Insert 10k torps at tier 10 against high TDS values
- Insert SAP 
- Insert assured detection
- Insert Situational Awareness given to everyone 
- Insert RPF
- Insert flooding that is nerfed into the ground

Need I go on?

1. Don't assume that radar is always on.

2. Don't assume that there's all that much radar on the enemy team.  I've been in tier 10 battles recently where there was absolutely no radar at all.

3. Don't assume that hydro is always on.

4. Don't assume that you're conducting an ambush inside of your DD's concealment range. 

5. Don't assume that the ship you're trying to ambush isn't already detected.

6. Don't assume that everyone has RPF.

 

You make a LOT of flawed assertions above.

  • Cool 5
  • Boring 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,728
[INTEL]
Members
13,064 posts
36,051 battles
Just now, Crucis said:

 

2. Don't assume that there's all that much radar on the enemy team.  I've been in tier 10 battles recently where there was absolutely no radar at all.

Me too. Since the US CLs mess two summers ago, the amount of radar in the game has fallen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,386
Members
1,058 posts
7,478 battles
4 minutes ago, Crucis said:

1. Don't assume that radar is always on.

2. Don't assume that there's all that much radar on the enemy team.  I've been in tier 10 battles recently where there was absolutely no radar at all.

3. Don't assume that hydro is always on.

4. Don't assume that you're conducting an ambush inside of your DD's concealment range. 

5. Don't assume that the ship you're trying to ambush isn't already detected.

6. Don't assume that everyone has RPF.

 

You make a LOT of flawed assertions above.

1.) I never assume nor made that claim. That doesn't detract from the fact it is one of multiple hard counters to DDs.

2.) Again see #1. The majority (>50%) of battles do have Radar ships

3.) See #1 and #2 with that percentage of battles being even higher

4.) That has nothing to do with 10km torps nor anything that was stated.

5.) See #4.

6.) Never assumed nor made that claim. Doesn't detract from the fact it exists in game and is easily accessible.

Any more straw mans and other fallacies you'd like to commit?

Edited by Varknyn12
  • Cool 3
  • Boring 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,272
[SALVO]
Members
24,823 posts
25,896 battles
2 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Lots of problems feeding this --

1. The game is flooded with radar at the tiers and the learning curve for newbies against radar is very steep. Many never get much of a chance to learn

2. The game is flooded with Sky Cancer, which removes the only advantage DDs have, their stealth, and makes games unfun for DD players. When the plague of CVs arrived, many good DD players left the game or switched to other ships (I switched to BBs since it sucks to play DD now), while crappier ones moved into CVs since they played DDs because they enjoyed the thought of hitting players while being immune to the consequences. CVs simply made that foolproof. 

3. The crappy MMs below T9 now are pushing players up the tiers faster, with the result that DDs arrive at the next tier with less seasoning than they need to play their ships well. 

4. WG does not create any thresholds for players to pass before acquiring ships of the next tier, nor does it provide training missions and similar. The devs don't care about quality of play. 

The outcome is obvious... so many games you load into the match and every DD player has a sub-50% win rate. 

As with Varknyn, you're making a lot of flawed assumptions here.

1. Don't assume that every battle will have lots, if any, radar.  I've been in tier 10 battles with no radar at all.  And ones with only 1 radar on the enemy team.  (More on radar at the end.)

2.  The game is NOT "flooded" with CVs.  Sometimes you end up in a battle with CVs and sometimes you don't.  Furthermore, CV planes can only be in one spot on the map at a time.   They are not an all seeing eye that can see everywhere and be everywhere at the exact same time.

3.  While I'd love to have some Skill based MM, it's unlikely to happen.  And I don't think that training missions or tutorials are worth a damn other than to teach new players how to move their ships and aim and fire their weapons.  Beyond that, I think that most new players would ignore more advanced tutorials because they'd rather just play the game.

As for DD players dying too easily early on, it doesn't help when we have some veteran players kvetch and whine about DD players not playing the mission and doing their job, i.e. getting into caps.  Good DD play requires patience, something far too many players are sorely lacking.

 

Yes, occasionally, you'll have battles with a lot of radar.  And in those battles, DD players need even more patience.  They need to try to spot enemy radar ships so that their team mates can shoot them, maybe sink them, or drive them away from the caps.  And if those DDs have torpedoes with enough range to reach those radar ships, they should launch them at those ships to make their lives that much more dangerous.

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,272
[SALVO]
Members
24,823 posts
25,896 battles
10 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Me too. Since the US CLs mess two summers ago, the amount of radar in the game has fallen. 

Of course it has, as I predicted back then.  As new lines come out, players will move over to them.  Veteran players like you and I may be grinding out the new lines, rather than playing old ones.  And currently, the newest cruiser lines (the Italians and Brits) don't have radar.  So that sort of diffuses people into different ships and reduces the number of radar cruisers seen.

I will say this though.  Be prepared for another big burst of radar cruiser play when the Russian cruiser line split arrives.  It'll almost certainly be just like the USN CR line split. But in the months that follow the RU CR line split, new lines will draw players away from those radar cruisers and things will get back to normal yet again.

 

Side note.  Given that the British CLs had radar as an option, now that I think of it, I'm a little surprised that the Brit CA line didn't have a radar option, though it's probably just as well that it didn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,379
Members
1,429 posts
7,116 battles

The biggest issues are that radar and sonar see through islands. Fix those and DD issues would be reduced a lot. 

Edited by USMC2145
  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
249
[DAS]
Members
971 posts
8,157 battles
50 minutes ago, Wthomp said:

I have been in too many battles where I keep seeing those with destroyers go right in and get sunk right away. When will players learn that a destroyer works best when they seek cover and conduct ambush operations and use their torpedoes effectively. A destroyer might be very maneuverable but can not withstand more than a couple of hits from a cruiser or battleship. In the 1990's the USS Comte De Grasse took out a US Navy carrier during maneuvers by hiding along a shore line, where they could not be picked up by radar or sonar, and when the carrier came into effective range, they fired everything they had. Got a complete victory and was not sunk. 

Okay, next time I play one of my DDs, I will instantly hide behind the nearest island. I can imagine it will be a stellar game with lots of rage thrown in my direction, followed by a quick death when I am detected by radar or planes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,272
[SALVO]
Members
24,823 posts
25,896 battles
9 minutes ago, Learux said:

I think we just encountered the worst teacher ever.

1. Assume that radar is always ready to be turned on

2.etc

Clueless.

Dude, I wasn't talking about during the battle itself.  My point was more strategic in nature, i.e. that just because the enemy has, say, 3 radars, you really can't assume that they're going to all be on at once and they won't all be on all the time.  If you pay attention, you can time your ambushes to occur during radar cooldowns, if you know a radar ship is nearby.  Or if you KNOW that there isn't a radar ship nearby, you're safe from radar.

Accusing someone of being clueless is a personal attack, which violates forum rules.  Consider yourself reported.

 

  • Boring 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,919
[FOXEH]
Beta Testers
14,110 posts
19,206 battles
37 minutes ago, Crucis said:

1. Don't assume that radar is always on.

Don't assume it's off, either!

2. Don't assume that there's all that much radar on the enemy team.  I've been in tier 10 battles recently where there was absolutely no radar at all.

If you recognize a ship as having radar, assume that it will be used.

3. Don't assume that hydro is always on.

Don't assume it's off, either!

4. Don't assume that you're conducting an ambush inside of your DD's concealment range. 

Assume you'll be spotted at any moment and have an escape route handy.

5. Don't assume that the ship you're trying to ambush isn't already detected.

Assume that you are probably already detected.

6. Don't assume that everyone has RPF.

Just play like they do, as it only takes one.

They're right @Crucis, you're a horrible teacher.

  • Cool 6
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,648
[SIDE]
Members
4,695 posts
59 minutes ago, Varknyn12 said:

lol ambush operations.

- Insert 21st century NSA satellite tasking (aka WoWs Radar)
- Insert OWSF to the 10th power, no risk, CVs
- Insert Hydro proliferation (with X-ray bonus)
- Insert 10k torps at tier 10 against high TDS values
- Insert SAP 
- Insert assured detection
- Insert Situational Awareness given to everyone 
- Insert RPF
- Insert flooding that is nerfed into the ground

Need I go on?

And, like, so what?

Still have magic smoke that affects your ability to accurately spam enemy ships spotted by others ZERO.

Still have infinite torp reloads so....

DD can load RPF, some get radar, some reload guns super fast, some reload torps super fast, some get hydro

Everyone got sit aware so....

Anything else? Cuz, I don't see the issue...

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
420
[AAA]
Members
447 posts
15,035 battles
46 minutes ago, Crucis said:

1. Don't assume that radar is always on.

2. Don't assume that there's all that much radar on the enemy team.  I've been in tier 10 battles recently where there was absolutely no radar at all.

3. Don't assume that hydro is always on.

4. Don't assume that you're conducting an ambush inside of your DD's concealment range. 

5. Don't assume that the ship you're trying to ambush isn't already detected.

6. Don't assume that everyone has RPF.

 

You make a LOT of flawed assertions above.

There you go again posting utter nonsense. You do this intentionally to garner max negative attention don't you?

Do you ever play DD? I'm assuming either you do not. Or you do not know how to play DD. Or you're just not very bright. Or you're flat out trolling.

Or some combination thereof.

1. Always assume radar is on unless you know when it was last used. Following your directive above would just be flat out BONEHEADED. But considering the source...

2. Who has to assume? You can see it right in the matchmaker. Again, are you trolling or just not very bright? Or both?

3. Always assume hydro is on unless you know when it was last up and is currently down. Are you trolling or are you completely clueless?

The rest of your post is just silly, clueless gibberish and not worthy of a reply.

Sad. And ridiculous.

Have a word with yourself and go face the wall. You have serious issues to be addressed.

:cap_wander_2:

  • Cool 2
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,272
[SALVO]
Members
24,823 posts
25,896 battles
1 minute ago, Umikami said:

They're right @Crucis, you're a horrible teacher.

No, they're not right.  They're just incapable of understanding a nuanced explanation.

 

And on #5, "assume you're already detected"?  Since everyone already has situational awareness, you'd KNOW if you were already detected.  Don't try to see the stinking pile of dog feces to everyone.

#6.  Saying "all it takes is one" is wrong as well.  It has to be one that's in the right position.  If the enemy has only one RPF ship and it's on the other side of the map with a lot of your team mates closer to it than you, it's not an issue.  Hell, even if the ship you're trying to ambush as RPF, it's no guarantee that it'll give useful information, because a smart player can spoof RPF by simply being between the RPF ship and a friendly.  The RPF ship will see the friendly and if that friendly is close enough that he would also be the closest ship to the enemy that the enemy sees, the enemy will literally not know that you're setting up the ambush, unless he can detect you by some other means.  RPF is only really useful when there's no friendly that the enemy might think is the ship triggering his RPF.  But if you're in some stealthy DD trying to get a flanking position near the edge of the map and you're picked up by RPF, then you're screwed because anyone with a brain will know that there's nothing off the edge of the map, so there's clearly a concealed ship there.

 

Seriously, you guys don't think more deeply about these things.  You make the most blunt assumptions and refuse to look for and see more subtle meanings to comments.  It's really pathetic.

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,648
[SIDE]
Members
4,695 posts
48 minutes ago, Varknyn12 said:

1.) I never assume nor made that claim. That doesn't detract from the fact it is one of multiple hard counters to DDs.

2.) Again see #1. The majority (>50%) of battles do have Radar ships

3.) See #1 and #2 with that percentage of battles being even higher

4.) That has nothing to do with 10km torps nor anything that was stated.

5.) See #4.

6.) Never assumed nor made that claim. Doesn't detract from the fact it exists in game and is easily accessible.

Any more straw mans and other fallacies you'd like to commit?

So what?

So what?

So what?

Khab would love 10km torps. Most are more. So... So what?

So what?

Come on zarth. It's ridiculous to say that almost every arcade aspect of the game is going to ruin the arcade game. You see that, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,272
[SALVO]
Members
24,823 posts
25,896 battles
3 minutes ago, Lt_Newcastle said:

There you go again posting utter nonsense. You do this intentionally to garner max negative attention don't you?

Do you ever play DD? I'm assuming either you do not. Or you do not know how to play DD. Or you're just not very bright. Or you're flat out trolling.

Or some combination thereof.

1. Always assume radar is on unless you know when it was last used. Following your directive above would just be flat out BONEHEADED. But considering the source...

2. Who has to assume? You can see it right in the matchmaker. Again, are you trolling or just not very bright? Or both?

3. Always assume hydro is on unless you know when it was last up and is currently down. Are you trolling or are you completely clueless?

The rest of your post is just silly, clueless gibberish and not worthy of a reply.

Sad. And ridiculous.

Have a word with yourself and go face the wall. You have serious issues to be addressed.

:cap_wander_2:

I play DDs … a LOT.  They're my most played ship type and they're my best ship type.  I know what I'm talking about.  And like I said in my previous post, you guys never look for deeper, more subtle meanings to comments.  You're nothing but blunt instruments who don't bother thinking beyond "see ship, shoot ship".

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,272
[SALVO]
Members
24,823 posts
25,896 battles
25 minutes ago, USMC2145 said:

The biggest issues are that radar and sonar see through islands. Fix those and DD issues would be reduced a lot. 

I would LOVE to see radar and hydro not being able to see through islands.  But for some reason, the devs have some hair across their collective butts about this being bad for the game, which I think is utterly nuts.  I will say that I don't think that hydro seeing through islands is nearly as big an issue, but that's only because its range is shorter than radar. 

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,648
[SIDE]
Members
4,695 posts
13 minutes ago, Umikami said:

They're right @Crucis, you're a horrible teacher.

You both make good points. I think the key is to be aware of all possibilities. Mitigate as much risk as possible and constantly be prepared to alter your plans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,554
[RKLES]
[RKLES]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
5,994 posts
20,705 battles
1 hour ago, Taichunger said:

Lots of problems feeding this --

1. The game is flooded with radar at the tiers and the learning curve for newbies against radar is very steep. Many never get much of a chance to learn

2. The game is flooded with Sky Cancer, which removes the only advantage DDs have, their stealth, and makes games unfun for DD players. When the plague of CVs arrived, many good DD players left the game or switched to other ships (I switched to BBs since it sucks to play DD now), while crappier ones moved into CVs since they played DDs because they enjoyed the thought of hitting players while being immune to the consequences. CVs simply made that foolproof. 

3. The crappy MMs below T9 now are pushing players up the tiers faster, with the result that DDs arrive at the next tier with less seasoning than they need to play their ships well. 

4. WG does not create any thresholds for players to pass before acquiring ships of the next tier, nor does it provide training missions and similar. The devs don't care about quality of play. 

The outcome is obvious... so many games you load into the match and every DD player has a sub-50% win rate. 

My Grozovoi disagrees. 

Also took my somers out in a CV match and loved till the end....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
8 posts
6,539 battles

DDs knife fight. One of them will sink the other. Doesn't mean the defeated is a bad player.

You guys in the heavy metal need targets to shoot. If we push up and try to make that happen someone might make a nice play on us and we're done.

Doesn't mean we deserve salt. Just a modicum of respect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,379
Members
1,429 posts
7,116 battles
58 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I would LOVE to see radar and hydro not being able to see through islands.  But for some reason, the devs have some hair across their collective butts about this being bad for the game, which I think is utterly nuts.  I will say that I don't think that hydro seeing through islands is nearly as big an issue, but that's only because its range is shorter than radar. 

 

I do wish they would at least try and fix this issue. Maybe one day they will, but i am not going to hold my breath. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,728
[INTEL]
Members
13,064 posts
36,051 battles
50 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

My Grozovoi disagrees. 

Also took my somers out in a CV match and loved till the end....

 

Some people are apparently unable to disentangle a general statement about in-game trends from their own experience. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,103
[SOV]
Members
4,621 posts
2 hours ago, Taichunger said:

Lots of problems feeding this --

1. The game is flooded with radar at the tiers and the learning curve for newbies against radar is very steep. Many never get much of a chance to learn

2. The game is flooded with Sky Cancer, which removes the only advantage DDs have, their stealth, and makes games unfun for DD players. When the plague of CVs arrived, many good DD players left the game or switched to other ships (I switched to BBs since it sucks to play DD now), while crappier ones moved into CVs since they played DDs because they enjoyed the thought of hitting players while being immune to the consequences. CVs simply made that foolproof. 

3. The crappy MMs below T9 now are pushing players up the tiers faster, with the result that DDs arrive at the next tier with less seasoning than they need to play their ships well. 

4. WG does not create any thresholds for players to pass before acquiring ships of the next tier, nor does it provide training missions and similar. The devs don't care about quality of play. 

The outcome is obvious... so many games you load into the match and every DD player has a sub-50% win rate. 

Good maybe dd will be gone. But Strangly there are still 4 dd per game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×