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sulghunter331

AP Over-Penning Citadels

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I wanted to ask why is it that when an AP shell travels straight through a citadel box without detonating does the same amount of damage when the same AP shell passes straight through the bow or super-structure? I mean, I understand that the shell didn't hit enough armor to trigger the fuse or it didn't slow down enough to detonate before exiting the target, but the citadel is where the ship's absolutely critical systems are. You mean to tell me that an object with the approximate mass of a compact car traveling through a ship's machinery spaces at a disturbed velocity does the same damage when it travels through the captain's cabin in the same fashion? I'd imagine a hole through the hydraulic and steam lines would be more worrying than a hole through the captain's book shelves and cabinets.

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There is no such thing as a citadel overpen.... a citadel is a citadel, always deals full damage.

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1 minute ago, gmrbull said:

There is no such thing as a citadel overpen

i think he means when a shell has too much penetration, it goes through the citadel and out the other end

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2 minutes ago, kishan99 said:

i think he means when a shell has too much penetration, it goes through the citadel and out the other end

Yes, this is what I am asking about.

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Just now, sulghunter331 said:

Yes, this is what I am asking about.

yeah, i actually feel the same way.   I think it should do 25% damage instead of over pen 10%

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4 minutes ago, kishan99 said:

i think he means when a shell has too much penetration, it goes through the citadel and out the other end

 

1 minute ago, sulghunter331 said:

Yes, this is what I am asking about.

The round has to detonate in the citadel to be a citadel hit.

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

 

The round has to detonate in the citadel to be a citadel hit.

I am not asking why an AP shell over-penning a citadel is not a citadel hit, I am asking why such an over-pen deals the same damage as an over-pen through a non-vital portion of a ship's structure.

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3 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

The round has to detonate in the citadel to be a citadel hit.

yeah so what he is saying is why does shells that go through the citadel (overpen) do the same amount of damage as if he were to hit the bow of a ship and overpen.

 

How I see it (real life example):

The concept is if a bullet goes through the brain and out the other end, it does the same damage as a bullet going through one toe.  (The brain being a citadel and a toe being the bow)

Edited by kishan99

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1 hour ago, gmrbull said:

There is no such thing as a citadel overpen.... a citadel is a citadel, always deals full damage.

wrong, a mechanic was added a few years back that allowed cruisers to last longer in battle without constant citadels. I have had many battles at close range with even the most paper of cruisers and the shells OVERPEN AT THE WATERLINE on broadside cruisers. shells will overpen the citadel. its a dumb mechanic but WG listens to the loudest whiners that do the dumbest stuff, AKA cruiser players that play in open water and go broadside to BBs. 

 

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41 minutes ago, Planetos said:

wrong, a mechanic was added a few years back that allowed cruisers to last longer in battle without constant citadels. I have had many battles at close range with even the most paper of cruisers and the shells OVERPEN AT THE WATERLINE on broadside cruisers. shells will overpen the citadel. its a dumb mechanic but WG listens to the loudest whiners that do the dumbest stuff, AKA cruiser players that play in open water and go broadside to BBs. 

 

That would be BB players, not Cruiser players.

And in response to the OP, it's not a simulator as @RipNuN2 said

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A few broken pipes or lines is the 10% damage of a Overpen, the full damage is welp that boiler/engine etc isn't there anymore

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41 minutes ago, hexeris said:

That would be BB players, not Cruiser players.

And in response to the OP, it's not a simulator as @RipNuN2 said

LOL.

DD players are, without anything remotely in competition with them, the whiniest players in the game.

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4 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

LOL.

DD players are, without anything remotely in competition with them, the whiniest players in the game.

Yes they have seem to be taking over this forum, while CV players seem to be the quietest

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48 minutes ago, hexeris said:

That would be BB players, not Cruiser players.

It's a toss up between BB and DD players.  People like laugh at BB players which is an easy thing to do, but when you really look at the threads, take a look at the ones posting them.  The truth comes out.

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Reasons(technical actually, previously shell in cit guaranteed 100% damage even on overpen, but this caused issues). Personally I'm not a fan and watching the endless salt about Smolensk being able to do this amuses me, but overall I think the well has been thoroughly poisoned by BB players to any hope of changing it.

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14 hours ago, Raven2303 said:

Yes they have seem to be taking over this forum, while CV players seem to be the quietest

That is because no one wants to admit they are a CV player for fear of being jumped on.  Its the same reason no one goes around admitting they play a lot of Nikolai, Belfast or Kamikaze.

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18 hours ago, Planetos said:

wrong, a mechanic was added a few years back that allowed cruisers to last longer in battle without constant citadels. I have had many battles at close range with even the most paper of cruisers and the shells OVERPEN AT THE WATERLINE on broadside cruisers. shells will overpen the citadel. its a dumb mechanic but WG listens to the loudest whiners that do the dumbest stuff, AKA cruiser players that play in open water and go broadside to BBs. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Aetreus said:

Reasons(technical actually, previously shell in cit guaranteed 100% damage even on overpen, but this caused issues). Personally I'm not a fan and watching the endless salt about Smolensk being able to do this amuses me, but overall I think the well has been thoroughly poisoned by BB players to any hope of changing it.

Again, I'm not saying that citadel over-pens should be counted for full damage citadel strikes, rather I am wondering why an over-pen through the vital portion of a ship counts for the same amount of damage as an over-pen through a non-vital portion of the ship. As someone else had suggested, 25% rather than 10% for an over-pen through the citadel would make a much more sense.

Citadel strike =/= Citadel over-pen. This I understand, and have no questions over.

Citadel over-pen == Bow/Superstructure over-pen? This is what I am asking about.

 

17 hours ago, AzureTerra said:

A few broken pipes or lines is the 10% damage of a Overpen, the full damage is welp that boiler/engine etc isn't there anymore

Yeah, but a broken hydraulic or steam line is going to be a lot more worrying then the mess deck or the chain locker having a pair of new 16" port-holes.

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Personally I think if you hit the citadel area and can pen the armor into it then it should be a citadel and nothing else. Over penning that area, even in a game, is ludicrous. No way a shell travels through that area without tearing the ship up. It's not realistic in real life OR a game. 

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6 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Personally I think if you hit the citadel area and can pen the armor into it then it should be a citadel and nothing else. Over penning that area, even in a game, is ludicrous. No way a shell travels through that area without tearing the ship up. It's not realistic in real life OR a game. 

Neither is a DD walking away from getting cored from stem to stern by a BB AP shell, but the devs said otherwise.

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The over pen mechanic seems to be getting worse and worse.

I used to like pulling out my Myoko because any cruiser that showed me broadside would get spanked with AP. Not any more.

Last week a had 8 over pens into a Leander at about 7k waterline in a single volley. Yeah...8 over pens. Next match 5 over pens in a Fiji under similar circumstances.

My Charles Martel had 3 overpens in the side of Gneis yesterday. 

Wows developers are changing the AP fuse timings as a leveling tool so noob players arent punished as badly for making mistakes. They pretty much admitted it with the Odin. Right now the best way to defend yourself vs AP is to give broadside and not angle.

And you wonder why so many high tier BBs are flinging HE.

Overpen factor needs to deal a lot more damage than it does now. Or just give it a high RNG factor. 

 

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4 hours ago, Murcc said:

That is because no one wants to admit they are a CV player for fear of being jumped on.  Its the same reason no one goes around admitting they play a lot of Nikolai, Belfast or Kamikaze.

Yea, got harassed by 3 different players in 1 match for playing my Shoukaku once today, person in the GK called me out for absolutely no reason, then he left the game, leaving the team 1 down a player.

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On 4/3/2020 at 5:49 PM, sulghunter331 said:

Again, I'm not saying that citadel over-pens should be counted for full damage citadel strikes, rather I am wondering why an over-pen through the vital portion of a ship counts for the same amount of damage as an over-pen through a non-vital portion of the ship. As someone else had suggested, 25% rather than 10% for an over-pen through the citadel would make a much more sense.

Citadel strike =/= Citadel over-pen. This I understand, and have no questions over.

Citadel over-pen == Bow/Superstructure over-pen? This is what I am asking about.

 

Yeah, but a broken hydraulic or steam line is going to be a lot more worrying then the mess deck or the chain locker having a pair of new 16" port-holes.

Yeah, they should make citadel overpens the same as a normal full pen, which is 33%.  At least it would reward the player with good aiming.

 

On 4/3/2020 at 6:01 PM, sulghunter331 said:

Neither is a DD walking away from getting cored from stem to stern by a BB AP shell, but the devs said otherwise.

I can understand this one.  A DD has such little health to start.  Some BB shells do almost as much damage as a typical DD has for health.  You couldn't have a single shell hit ruin a game for one player.  The overpen mechanic is for balance.  Those BB shots still do significant damage to a DD percentage wise.

 

23 hours ago, Scotty_SE said:

The over pen mechanic seems to be getting worse and worse.

I used to like pulling out my Myoko because any cruiser that showed me broadside would get spanked with AP. Not any more.

Last week a had 8 over pens into a Leander at about 7k waterline in a single volley. Yeah...8 over pens. Next match 5 over pens in a Fiji under similar circumstances.

My Charles Martel had 3 overpens in the side of Gneis yesterday. 

Wows developers are changing the AP fuse timings as a leveling tool so noob players arent punished as badly for making mistakes. They pretty much admitted it with the Odin. Right now the best way to defend yourself vs AP is to give broadside and not angle.

And you wonder why so many high tier BBs are flinging HE.

Overpen factor needs to deal a lot more damage than it does now. Or just give it a high RNG factor. 

 

I'm not sure its just the overpen mechanic that is causing this.  It could be an aiming bug, where the shots aren't going exactly where they should, or maybe you are aiming higher in the ship than you think.  A Charles Martel shouldn't be getting an overpen on a Gneisenau unless those shots hit high into the superstructure.

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On 4/2/2020 at 11:38 PM, AzureTerra said:

A few broken pipes or lines is the 10% damage of a Overpen, the full damage is welp that boiler/engine etc isn't there anymore

That's the issue though. A few broken pipes or lines is what you get from a regular overpen.

The citadel is densely packed with important stuff, because the smaller you can make the citadel, the harder it is to hit, and the less weight of internal armor plating you need.

IMO, a shell passing through the citadel should be at least a regular pen worth.

And the engine/boiler not being there anymore would be a detonation.

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