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BenAubrey

Citadels - How is 150 mm armor penetrated?

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I still don't get this...so I figured I would ask.  I am grinding through the Brindisi.  It has a huge above water line citadel which is 150mm thick.  It is by far the thickest armor on the ship.  And yet I can be easily citadeled from almost any angle.

I have looked through a couple of vids on the citadel but still don't get how shells are able to penetrate 150mm armor. Is it all about the angle and speed/weight of the ordinance? Doesn't appear to be...I was citadeled by a Hipper. Yet there is no shell that calculates to penetrate armor that thick. Soooooo......I am confused and I know I am missing a vital point after 3300 random battles.  I am slowly but surely getting better and working down the Italian cruiser line has been challenging and frustrating but I would like to have the Venezia....and it is within grasp.

Appreciate any input.

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Looks to me like the hipper can pen 150mm.. if i understand these charts properly

FitTaev.png

d6ZFN4m.png

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, SKurj said:

Looks to me like the hipper can pen 150mm.. if i understand these charts properly

FitTaev.png

d6ZFN4m.png

 

 

 

Thanks...that's a start....where can I find those charts for ships?

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28 minutes ago, BenAubrey said:

I still don't get this...so I figured I would ask.  I am grinding through the Brindisi.  It has a huge above water line citadel which is 150mm thick.  It is by far the thickest armor on the ship.  And yet I can be easily citadeled from almost any angle.

I have looked through a couple of vids on the citadel but still don't get how shells are able to penetrate 150mm armor. Is it all about the angle and speed/weight of the ordinance? Doesn't appear to be...I was citadeled by a Hipper. Yet there is no shell that calculates to penetrate armor that thick. Soooooo......I am confused and I know I am missing a vital point after 3300 random battles.  I am slowly but surely getting better and working down the Italian cruiser line has been challenging and frustrating but I would like to have the Venezia....and it is within grasp.

Appreciate any input.

every single heavy cruiser pens 150mm of plating at 15km, and most light cruisers can do it at 9km, and BBs don't give a s*it about 150mm belt armor

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I think you may be getting confused between AP and HE penetration. HE penetration is listed in game, and you are correct that no HE shell can pen the citadel armor belt.

AP penetration is much different, and much higher. There is no simple formula for AP pen, it depends on shell caliber and shell velocity, which itself depends on multiple factors. Most of these factors are not easily available. But most CAs and all BBs have no issues going through 150mm. BBs can easily punch through 400+ mm.

The other big complexity in AP pen is angle. The steeper the angle, the greater the effective armor thickness. Also, ricochets are possible. At a certain angle the game basically has a probability of the shell bouncing, and this probability increases as the angle increases, up to a certain angle where it always bounces, called the autobounce angle. This does not depend on armor thickness, but only on the shell autobounce angles.

However, if the shell is big enough it overmatches, which means it pens regardless of angle. This is what makes Yamato special. BB bow plating is 32mm, but it's so steeply angled that almost all AP shells autobounce. Except 460mm guns, which just overmatch it and pen.

So the logic of AP pen is as follows: Shell encounters armor. First thing that happens is the autobounce check. This is a simple formula, caliber in mm divided by 14.3. If it overmatches, penetration. If it doesn't, we go onto the autobounce check. The game checks the angle that the shell hit the armor at. If the angle exceeds the shell autobounce angle, ricochet. If not it calculates the probability of a ricochet based on the angle, and rolls the dice. This results in either a ricochet or moving on. Once the shell passes the ricochet check, it goes to the penetration check. At this point the shell's AP penetration is calculated, based on velocity (which depends on distance from muzzle, air drag, krupp, etc) and caliber. The effective armor thickness is also calculated, which is a combination of actual thickness and angle. If the shell has more penetration than the effective armor, the result is a penetration. 

That's the AP pen, without any of the formulas. You can look those up on the wiki for AP pen. Once the shell penetrates there's a whole other sequence for arming and doing damage, but that's a different story.

So now that you know that, you can see why angling matters, it increases effective thickness and chances of ricochet.
 

Now for the any angle citadels. You're probably not getting blapped through the belt. There are many other pieces of armor that are much thinner. Stern and bow citadel plating, and citadel roof plating. I don't know exactly what the values are, but chances are BBs are either straight up overmatching or just penetrating the thinner armor pieces, resulting in a citadel. The belt properly angled will bounce any shell, but multiple other pieces of the citadel protection are probably easy to penetrate for many BBs. That's just the life of a cruiser in WOWS. Take a look at what else is protecting your citadel, I'm willing to bet there's some 25mm (overmatched by 15in guns) or 27mm (overmatched by 16in guns) plating that most BBs completely ignore.

Edited by AJTP89
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48 minutes ago, BenAubrey said:

I still don't get this...so I figured I would ask.  I am grinding through the Brindisi.  It has a huge above water line citadel which is 150mm thick.  It is by far the thickest armor on the ship.  And yet I can be easily citadeled from almost any angle.

I have looked through a couple of vids on the citadel but still don't get how shells are able to penetrate 150mm armor. Is it all about the angle and speed/weight of the ordinance? Doesn't appear to be...I was citadeled by a Hipper. Yet there is no shell that calculates to penetrate armor that thick. Soooooo......I am confused and I know I am missing a vital point after 3300 random battles.  I am slowly but surely getting better and working down the Italian cruiser line has been challenging and frustrating but I would like to have the Venezia....and it is within grasp.

Appreciate any input.

 

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Don't get armour penetration and overmatch mixed up.

When the experts start talking about 25mm or 27mm or 32mm or whatever of armour beating or not beating battleship shells of a particular calibre, they're talking about its ability to bounce them at very shallow angles of approach, like stones skipping off the surface of a mirror-smooth lake. 

That's all about "There is a calibre of shell beyond which this thickness of armour will not keep out the shell at any angle."

Broadside penetration is about what happens at a normal angle, i.e. the shell's direction of travel is perpendicular to the surface of the armour. That is the shell's best case.

150mm of belt armour will bounce pretty much anything in the game at any range when struck at a shallow angle (sometimes called "baiting it on the belt"); it will not do the same at the normal.

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30 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

The proximity of another cruiser is to you, the velocity of the shell, and the shell mass determine pen. You can pen certain Battleships with 203mm if you are close enough. Battleships can pen each other at knife fight range.

Also 60 degrees as a rule is autobounce angle. To know what that looks like, your back guns have to be be able to aim at the target with ship at angle to attacker.

However, some ships have to actually go near straight due to shape of bow like Yamato.

In such cases, you don't use the back gun until after your attacker has fired, then swing out the back end just enough to fire. But swing back to near straight to make the steep angle again.

This pattern helps as you close in and knowing to time the opening up between attack shots is key.

I call it wiggling. Others call it something else.

This works effectively at all ranges, but is most useful at close range where overmatch is a possibility.

At 4-5 km protection may be compromised. All bets are off.

You can practice this in training room by shooting at your own ship and observe the results while seeing the back guns. By knowing the autobounce threshold you will know when you are able to max protect from shots.

Good luck.

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Appreciate all the very detailed responses! And the chart link was very helpful! Thank you!

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Well, you see ... when Daddy AP shell and Mommy Citadel love each other very much ...

Honestly, a lot of AP can pen 150mm. The only protection 150mm offers is when angled against other cruisers. That's about it.

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