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World of Warships Proposal: KMS Ludendorff ( H-42)

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Warship Proposal: KMS Ludendorff (H-42)

 

Yashima who, Wargaming?

 

This proposal would serve to implement the German Battleship Design H-42 into the World of Warships. The H-42 design was one of 5 follow up projects to the famed Bismarck-class battleships (H-38). H-42 was intended to be one of the largest of them, with 8 48.0cm SK/C guns mounted in 4 twin turrets and nearly indestructible armor, as well as monstrous AA defenses. The project was cancelled following the start of World War II and the redirection of materials towards U-boat and Tank construction.

The H-42 you will see here takes the real-life concept and gives it a bit of my own fan-fictionalizing with additional AA mounts and the like, assuming that the warship had been constructed and had received upgrades such as additional AA guns and improved secondaries.


( Please note that all details are taken from German Naval Historian Erich Groner, and, as stated, some details may contradict with history as it also combines some of my own details for the sake of game balance. Do NOT, and I repeat, do NOT quote me on historical accuracy )

 

Name: KMS Ludendorff

Namesake: General Erich von Ludendorff ( German general famous for knocking on the door of the forts at Liege and demanding surrender - and having it work )

Design Proposal Basis: H-42

Tier: X

Price: 68,000 Research Points 

Dimensions

  • Length: 305m ( 1,000 feet, 8 inches )
  • Beam: 42.8m ( 140 feet, 5 inches )
  • Draft: 11.8m (  38 feet, 9 inches )

Displacement: 90,000 Tons est.


Armor

  • Armor Scheme: Turtleback
  • Main Armor Belt: 380mm
  • Upper Belt: 225mm
  • Bulkheads: 280mm
  • Turret: 457mm
  • Deck Armor: 50mm outer deck, 80mm central deck
  • Superstructure: 19mm
  • Bow/Stern-plating: Same as ( X ) Grosser Kurfurst
  • Presence of 32mm plating: Yes ( tip of bow and stern )
  • HP Pool: 117,145
  • Fire / Flood Duration: 60 / 40
  • Torpedo Damage Reduction: 33%

Armaments

Primary Armaments: 8 x 480mm L/48 SK C/41

  • Maximum Firing Range: 21.2km
  • Accuracy: German Battleship Dispersion, 2.0 sigma
  • Reload Time: 30 seconds
  • Turret Traverse Speed: 5.5* / second ( 36 second traverse )
  • HE Shell: HE L/4.5 ( 1824 kg, 6450 Damage, 41% Fire Chance, 120mm penetration, 820 m/s )
  • AP Shell: APC L/4.5 ( 1824 kg, 16,850 Damage, Standard Fuse and Auto Bounce Angles, 820 m/s )
  • Firing Angles: 145* forward, 140* rearward

Secondary Armament Level 1: 6 x 2 150mm L/55 SK C/28

  • Range: 7.8km
  • Accuracy: Standard Dispersion, 1.0 sigma
  • Reload Time: 7.5 seconds
  • HE Shell: L/4.6 KZ m HB ( 1700 Damage, 38mm penetration, 875 m/s velocity)

Secondary Armament Level 2: 8 x 2 128mm L/61 KM40

  • Range: 7.8km
  • Accuracy, Standard Dispersion, 1.0 sigma
  • Reload Time: 4.0 seconds
  • HE Shell: HE L/4.6 KZ m HB ( 1500 damage, 32mm penetration, 900 m/s velocity )

Other Details

  • Secondary Armament Durability: Standard German
  • Secondary Armament Firing Angles: 150* forward, 150* rear

Anti-Aircraft

Long Range: 4 x 2 128mm L/61 KM40

  • Explosions: 5+1
  • Damage Per Explosion: 1,540
  • Rate of Fire: 5.0 seconds
  • Spawn Time: 1.56 seconds
  • Aura Damage: 131.8 DPS
  • Hit Rate: 75%
  • Range: 6.0km

Medium Range: 28 x 2 37mm Flakzwilling

  • Aura Damage: 454.3 DPS
  • Hit Rate: 75%
  • Range: 4.0km

Short Range: 24 x 2 20mm Flakzwilling

  • Aura Damage: 291.5
  • Hit Rate: 75%
  • Range: 2.0km

Other Details

  • Maximum Sector Reinforcement: 35.0%
  • Preparation Time: 15.0 seconds
  • Action Time: 15.0 seconds
  • Instant Damage: 3.5%

Maneuverability

  • Maximum Forward Speed: 30.9kn
  • Turning Radius: 1,150 meters
  • Rudder Shift Time: 17.2 seconds
  • Rotation Speed: 3.5* / sec
  • Engine Power: 266,000 SHP
  • Power-to-Weight Ratio: 2.03 HP /Ton
  • Acceleration / Deceleration: 70 seconds / 50 seconds

Stealth

  • Surface Detection Radius: 18.8km ( 20.8km on fire )
  • Aerial Detection Radius: 14.9km ( 16.9km on fire )
  • Surface Smoke Firing Penalty: 17.3km
  • Aerial Smoke Firing Penalty: 14.14km
  • Assured Detection Radius: 2.0km

Consumables

  • Slot 1: Damage Control Party ( 15 seconds action time, 120 / 80 reset )
  • Slot 2: Repair Party ( 0.5% HP / second, 28 second action time, 3 charges base, 120 / 80 reset )
  • Slot 3: Fighter OR Spotter ( Standard German Fighter and Spotter Consumables )
  • Slot 4: Hydroacoustic Search ( 4km / 6km Acquisition Range, 120 second action time, 2 charges base, 180 / 120 reset )

Build

Upgrades

  • Slot 1: Main Armaments Modification 1 / Auxiliary Armaments Modification 1
  • Slot 2: Damage Control Modification 1
  • Slot 3: Aiming Systems Modification 1 / Secondary Battery Modification 2
  • Slot 4: Damage Control System Modification 2
  • Slot 5: Concealment Systems Modification 1
  • Slot 6: Main Battery Modification 3 / Auxiliary Armaments Modification 2

Commander Skills

  • Preventative Maintenance ( 1 point )
  • Adrenaline Rush ( 2 points )
  • Superintendent / Basic Firing Training ( 3 points )
  • Concealment Expert / Advanced Firing Training ( 4 points )
  • Jack of All Trades / High Alert ( 2 points )
  • Basics of Survivability ( 3 points )
  • Fire Prevention / Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament ( 4 points )

* the slash means or, as in take either JoAT or HA.

Flags

  • Mike Yankee Soxisix ( Extra secondaries )
  • November Echo Setteseven ( Extra AA )
  • November Foxtrot ( Faster Consumable Cooldown )
  • India Delta ( Extra Heal strength)
  • Juliet Yankee Bissotwo ( reduced flooding )
  • India Yankee ( reduced fires )

Pros And Cons

Pros

  • One of the heaviest battleship broadsides in Tier 10
  • Decent rate of fire
  • Comfortable shell velocity
  • Good turret traverse speed
  • Large secondary armament with a very good 7.8km base range
  • Very heavily armored, with thick deck armor and well protected bow that prevents overmatch shots from Yamato
  • Massive Hitpool of 112,500 hitpoints
  • Has access to the long range and long lasting German Hydroacoustic Search Consumable
  • The citadel sits below the waterline and is protected by a turtleback, making citadel penetrations from surface ships almost impossible
  • Powerful AA defense can wreck Tier 8 planes in a hurry

Cons

  • Stupidly large target
  • Extremely clumsy in a turn
  • Only 8 barrels and German Battleship Dispersion means that missed shots will hurt quite a lot.
  • Easily set on fire
  • HUGE detection radius of 18.8km
  • Short Main Battery Firing range of 21.2km

Before I end this topic of discussion, I would like to note that a good portion of the details are based upon my imagination of what the H-42 would have looked like. I know that there is something called historical accuracy, but let’s be real. H-42 as it would have been built would barely be able to survive in the game, let alone thrive or compete. Therefore, I made upgrades wherever I found suitable, based upon the information I had.

Once again, if you have any questions, comments, or salt, do leave them in the comments below

Peace!

 

P.S. Fuso review drops around 8:30 tonight. Bon Jovi review comes tomorrow at around 9:45 tomorrow morning

Edited by Shrayes_Bhagavatula
Downgrade to H-42 because of the fact that H-44 definitely belongs at Tier 11 rather than Tier 10
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While I haven't read the ship's stats, I do NOT like the name you've used.  The name "Von Der Tann" should be reserved for the WW1 era German Battlecruiser Von Der Tann.

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20 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Do you have any suggestions by chance, @Crucis.

I'm open to them...

:SerB:

KMS Ludendorff, maybe?

And honestly I quite like this. The power of her guns and her durability would definitely be pretty hard-countered by her sheer size and clumsiness. She's be an absolute torpedo magnet, making the use of hydro and good positioning VERY important. Overall, a nice way to implement such a ridiculous design.

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45 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Do you have any suggestions by chance, @Crucis.

I'm open to them...

:SerB:

Some thoughts...

1. The German Navy of the WW2 era didn't seem to use the names of past royalty.  The names Grosser Kurfurst and Friedrich de Grosse were historical names from WW1 era ships that WG used, but I sort of doubt that they'd have been used by the Kriegsmarine if these actual ships had been built.

2. The names Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were derived from the names of historical Prussian field marshals.  So I look there for another name.  And here's a doozy. 

Carl von Clausewitz 

Yes, the same von Clausewitz who wrote the book "On War".  I'm not sure if he was that great of a military leader, but his name is certainly historically significant.  And might make for a good name for a (sort of) fictional German ship in the game.  So, call the ship the KMS Clausewitz.

 

3. Another potential name could be Beowulf.   This name was actually used on some actual German ships in the past, so it has a history with the German navy.

 

Edited by Crucis
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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

Some thoughts...

1. The German Navy of the WW2 era didn't seem to use the names of past royalty.  The names Grosser Kurfurst and Friedrich de Grosse were historical names from WW1 era ships that WG used, but I sort of doubt that they'd have been used by the Kriegsmarine if these actual ships had been built.

2. The names Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were derived from the names of historical Prussian field marshals.  So I look there for another name.  And here's a doozy. 

Carl von Clausewitz 

Yes, the same von Clausewitz who wrote the book "On War".  I'm not sure if he was that great of a military leader, but his name is certainly historically significant.  And might make for a good name for a (sort of) fictional German ship in the game.  So, call the ship the KMS Clausewitz.

 

3. Another potential name could be Beowulf.   This name was actually used on some actual German ships in the past, so it has a history with the German navy.

 

Thank you for the suggestions @Crucis. While I already made a choice, I really appreciate your input

:SerB:

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Ok... So, 131000 tons displacemente gives hitpoint pool over 160,000

How are you getting that the 20" guns had 2,200 lbs of shell weight? And how are those guns having a 30s reload on 8 20" guns?

It's OP as you've done it now, look at the Yashima/Shikishima and compare it to the Yamato and then compare your H-44 to the GK

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To be fair both H-44 and A-150 are Tier 11 material... There is a reason we are getting A-140 instead a A-150 and a quite nerfed one at that... If we ever get H-44 in game it will probably be either a less tanky to have decent guns or a version of GK with only 8 guns but better accuracy but way worse survivability...

 

Let's not forget that H-44 is a German design and would very likely get the same treatment as Shikishima... Instead of a Kremlin or Ohio, it's very likely to be just even worse than GK...

May be just me but I would like to not waste the super battleship designs in a very nerfed state compared to the real design to fit in Tier 10... I would love to see a Tier 11 with all the crazy designs, maybe on a separate MM so they don't face other ships other than themselves but I would love that

 

Still, +1 for the effort 

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12 minutes ago, Fr05ty said:

Ok... So, 131000 tons displacemente gives hitpoint pool over 160,000

How are you getting that the 20" guns had 2,200 lbs of shell weight? And how are those guns having a 30s reload on 8 20" guns?

It's OP as you've done it now, look at the Yashima/Shikishima and compare it to the Yamato and then compare your H-44 to the GK

It was according to Groner in his books, and on the...

Oh wait...

No you are actually right. The shell weights were for the 53.3 cm gun that was also planned around the same time, not the 50.8cm gun :Smile_facepalm:

I'll fix that in a bit

:SerB:

edit: Also, H-43 sounds more reasonable anyways. I'll swap the displacement and primary armaments to that, too

Edited by Shrayes_Bhagavatula

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10 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

It was according to Groner in his books, and on the...

Oh wait...

No you are actually right. The shell weights were for the 53.3 cm gun that was also planned around the same time, not the 50.8cm gun :Smile_facepalm:

I'll fix that in a bit

:SerB:

edit: Also, H-43 sounds more reasonable anyways. I'll swap the displacement and primary armaments to that, too

Trust me when I say that there's no way it was a L/4.9 508mm shell weighing 2200lbs. That's the shell mass for the 406mm gun!

Also, how are you calculating HP, AP damage, HE damage and fire % chance? I've seen you throw numbers around and most often they're terribly far away from what they should be.

Edited by Fr05ty
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26 minutes ago, Fr05ty said:

Trust me when I say that there's no way it was a L/4.9 508mm shell weighing 2200lbs. That's the shell mass for the 406mm gun!

Also, how are you calculating HP, AP damage, HE damage and fire % chance? I've seen you throw numbers around and most often they're terribly far away from what they should be.

I calculate my numbers and values based upon referencing what already exists in game, as well as historical data that I obtain during my research.

And you are right. The 50.8cm APC L/4.9 actually weighs 2,200 KILOGRAMS, or 4,850 lbs, so there's that. ( I'm a potato )

One more thing. I could not find any historical data that concerned the theorized 48.0cm gun for the H-42 / 43, so I did some of my own theorycrafting and set the values between that of the largest German BB guns in the game ( the 42.0cm L/48 SK C/42 found on the FdG and Curry), and the guns found on Yashima / Shikishima to obtain the values. The resulting values are around 2,650 pounds for the 48.0cm shells, as well as the same 820 m/s velocity as the 38.0cm guns found on Bismarck. The penetration values would be between that of Republique and Yashima, but would follow typical German patterns in dropping off quickly at range.

:SerB:

Edited by Shrayes_Bhagavatula

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25 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

I calculate my numbers and values based upon referencing what already exists in game, as well as historical data that I obtain during my research.

And you are right. The 50.8cm APC L/4.9 actually weighs 2,200 KILOGRAMS, or 4,850 lbs, so there's that. ( I'm a potato )

One more thing. I could not find any historical data that concerned the theorized 48.0cm gun for the H-42 / 43, so I did some of my own theorycrafting and set the values between that of the largest German BB guns in the game ( the 42.0cm L/48 SK C/42 found on the FdG and Curry), and the guns found on Yashima / Shikishima to obtain the values. The resulting values are around 2,650 pounds for the 48.0cm shells, as well as the same 820 m/s velocity as the 38.0cm guns found on Bismarck. The penetration values would be between that of Republique and Yashima, but would follow typical German patterns in dropping off quickly at range.

:SerB:

Easiest way for those cases since we know the 48cm gun is an enlarged 42cm gun, then we calculate the proportion of volume from one shell to another, and then multiply the mass of one shell in that same proportion.

Assuming they're all the same shell but enlarged: 42cm shell: 1220kg, 48cm shell: 1824kg, 50.8cm shell: 2162kg

And that's how you make approximations for shells in my opinion. You can't really grab values willy nilly.

Also, HP, AP damage, HE damage and fire % chance all have formulas that I've derived for them.

HP is based on displacement and class. AP damage is based on shell mass and muzzle velocity, HE damage is based on shell mass and burster charge and fire % chance is based on bursting charge. I can send them over if you want, so then you will have a way of estimating numbers instead of putting out stuff that doesn't make much sense. There are some ships that have boosted stats btw (RN ships have bonus HE damage, IJN ships have bonus HE damage, KGM ships have nerfed HE damage, KGM CAs have boosted AP damage and there are a bit more), so some numbers won't match exactly.

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18 minutes ago, Fr05ty said:

Easiest way for those cases since we know the 48cm gun is an enlarged 42cm gun, then we calculate the proportion of volume from one shell to another, and then multiply the mass of one shell in that same proportion.

Assuming they're all the same shell but enlarged: 42cm shell: 1220kg, 48cm shell: 1824kg, 50.8cm shell: 2162kg

And that's how you make approximations for shells in my opinion. You can't really grab values willy nilly.

Also, HP, AP damage, HE damage and fire % chance all have formulas that I've derived for them.

HP is based on displacement and class. AP damage is based on shell mass and muzzle velocity, HE damage is based on shell mass and burster charge and fire % chance is based on bursting charge. I can send them over if you want, so then you will have a way of estimating numbers instead of putting out stuff that doesn't make much sense. There are some ships that have boosted stats btw (RN ships have bonus HE damage, IJN ships have bonus HE damage, KGM ships have nerfed HE damage, KGM CAs have boosted AP damage and there are a bit more), so some numbers won't match exactly.

Actually, could you send those over. I have a feeling that the numbers are way off

:SerB:

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Bismarck isn't H-38. H is the lead ship of the class, following on from F (Bismarck) and G (Tirpitz). 42 denotes the year, which H-39 being the original project. German battleship weren't named until launch, so until that point they are known either by what they are (e.g. 'ersatz Hannover' as it was a replacement for the old battleship Hannover) or their sequential letter (e.g. F for the 5th ship in the series)

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2 hours ago, mr3awsome said:

Bismarck isn't H-38. H is the lead ship of the class, following on from F (Bismarck) and G (Tirpitz). 42 denotes the year, which H-39 being the original project. German battleship weren't named until launch, so until that point they are known either by what they are (e.g. 'ersatz Hannover' as it was a replacement for the old battleship Hannover) or their sequential letter (e.g. F for the 5th ship in the series)

I legitimately did not know that. I always thought that "H" denoted Battleships and so on...

:SerB:

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