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Altrunchen

If Subs are Inevitable...Then Here's How I'd Do It

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Okay so love it or hate it, it seems that WG is bent on bringing submarines into the game. If that is the case then here are my thoughts on how they could handle the implementation possibly.

Please don't burn me at the stake for this, I just want to help.

Here's a summary of ideas that include (but are not limited to) the following:

For Submarines:

  • Artillery:
    • Functional Deck Guns
  • Mobility:
    • Speeds:
      • Slower underwater speeds (no more nuclear sub levels of submerged speeds)
      • Faster surface speeds (to compensate for the slower underwater speeds)
    • Depths:
      • Surface:
        • Most visible
        • Fastest speed
        • Can use deck guns
        • Base/Zone capture speed = 100%
      • Periscope Depth:
        • Semi visible
        • Moderate speed
        • Incoming artillery accuracy and efficacy mitigated slightly
        • Base/Zone capture speed = 50%
      • Deep:
        • Least visible
        • Slowest speed
        • Immune to artillery
        • Base/Zone capture speed = 0%
        • If you start to flood or catch on fire, you take extra damage when you're deeper and it takes even longer to fix.
        • Minimap data only updates when your own sonar detects something
        • Match score and kill statuses of ships remains the same as it was when you went deep. Updates when you go back to at least periscope depth
  • Torpedoes
    • Historically accurate torpedo tube count and placement
    • Since the torpedo tubes are fixed to the hull, their aiming arc is limited substantially
    • No more homing torpedoes or their pinging mechanic
    • Firing a torpedo can reveal your sub's location (would need to be tweaked)
    • Choice of torpedo ammunition
      • Normal: Only work properly when surfaced or at periscope depth but load faster and go further than deep-water torpedoes.
      • Deep-Water: Meant to work when deeper than periscope depth and deal more damage than normal torpedoes, but they move slower and have shorter range.
      • Blitz: Smaller, faster torpedoes that are quicker to load, except they do less damage and  only work properly when launched from the surface or at periscope depth while only going a short distance.
      • Cruise: Torpedoes that go much farther than normal torpedoes but take a longer time to load. Only work properly at periscope depth or at the surface.
  • Detection
    • Sonar
      • Passive sonar is always active around a submarine, similar to hydro-acoustic search. Good for supporting roles.
        • Detects friendly and enemy ships within a certain radius
        • Detects all torpedoes within a certain radius for all ships in that radius.
      • Active sonar is a repeatable ability (with cooldown) that when used sends out a ping that reveals both your own location and the location of any and all ships in a certain radius.
    • Ship Positions
      • The ship positions on the minimap for submarines is only updated when
        • They are surfaced or at periscope depth (as normal)
        • They detect ships using passive or active sonar

For Other Ships:

  • Depth Charges (Duh)
    • Standard for all destroyers.
    • Equippable for all ships that carried them or were at least designed to carry them.
    • AOE damage to all submarines.
    • Affected areas show up on the minimap after they explode.
    • Interferes with sonar by flooding the nearby water with noise.
    • Can destroy incoming torpedoes if the torpedoes enter the threatened area.
    • Can tweak variables like damage, quantity of charges, threat range, cooldown, etc. between countries
    • Different fuse settings:
      • Shallow Detonation: Affects subs and torpedoes closer to the surface
      • Deep Detonation: Affects deeper subs and torpedoes
  • Passive and/or active sonar for ships that historically had it or were designed to have it in order to compensate for the new abundance of underwater combat.
Edited by Altrunchen
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25 minutes ago, Altrunchen said:

Okay so love it or hate it, it seems that WG is bent on bringing submarines into the game. If that is the case then here are my thoughts on how they could handle the implementation possibly.

Please don't burn me at the stake for this, I just want to help.

Here's a summary of ideas that include (but are not limited to) the following:

For Submarines:

  • Artillery:
    • Functional Deck Guns
  • Mobility:
    • Speeds:
      • Slower underwater speeds (no more nuclear sub levels of submerged speeds)
      • Faster surface speeds (to compensate for the slower underwater speeds)
    • Depths:
      • Surface:
        • Most visible
        • Fastest speed
        • Can use deck guns
        • Base/Zone capture speed = 100%
      • Periscope Depth:
        • Semi visible
        • Moderate speed
        • Incoming artillery accuracy and efficacy mitigated slightly
        • Base/Zone capture speed = 50%
      • Deep:
        • Least visible
        • Slowest speed
        • Immune to artillery
        • Base/Zone capture speed = 0%
        • If you start to flood or catch on fire, you take extra damage when you're deeper and it takes even longer to fix.
        • Minimap data only updates when your own sonar detects something
        • Match score and kill statuses of ships remains the same as it was when you went deep. Updates when you go back to at least periscope depth
  • Torpedoes
    • Historically accurate torpedo tube count and placement
    • Since the torpedo tubes are fixed to the hull, their aiming arc is limited substantially
    • No more homing torpedoes or their pinging mechanic
    • Firing a torpedo can reveal your sub's location (would need to be tweaked)
    • Choice of torpedo ammunition
      • Normal: Only work properly when surfaced or at periscope depth but load faster and go further than deep-water torpedoes.
      • Deep-Water: Meant to work when deeper than periscope depth and deal more damage than normal torpedoes, but they move slower and have shorter range.
      • Blitz: Smaller, faster torpedoes that are quicker to load, except they do less damage and  only work properly when launched from the surface or at periscope depth while only going a short distance.
      • Cruise: Torpedoes that go much farther than normal torpedoes but take a longer time to load. Only work properly at periscope depth or at the surface.
  • Detection
    • Sonar
      • Passive sonar is always active around a submarine, similar to hydro-acoustic search. Good for supporting roles.
        • Detects friendly and enemy ships within a certain radius
        • Detects all torpedoes within a certain radius for all ships in that radius.
      • Active sonar is a repeatable ability (with cooldown) that when used sends out a ping that reveals both your own location and the location of any and all ships in a certain radius.
    • Ship Positions
      • The ship positions on the minimap for submarines is only updated when
        • They are surfaced or at periscope depth (as normal)
        • They detect ships using passive or active sonar

For Other Ships:

  • Depth Charges (Duh)
    • Standard for all destroyers.
    • Equippable for all ships that carried them or were at least designed to carry them.
    • AOE damage to all submarines.
    • Affected areas show up on the minimap after they explode.
    • Interferes with sonar by flooding the nearby water with noise.
    • Can destroy incoming torpedoes if the torpedoes enter the threatened area.
    • Can tweak variables like damage, quantity of charges, threat range, cooldown, etc. between countries
    • Different fuse settings:
      • Shallow Detonation: Affects subs and torpedoes closer to the surface
      • Deep Detonation: Affects deeper subs and torpedoes
  • Passive and/or active sonar for ships that historically had it or were designed to have it in order to compensate for the new abundance of underwater combat.

Well thought out and presented. Tho I am not crazy about having subs in-game.

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4 minutes ago, Gruntdog_3 said:

Well thought out and presented. Tho I am not crazy about having subs in-game.

I...was not expecting this sort of reaction. Thank you. O_O

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1 hour ago, Gruntdog_3 said:

Well thought out and presented. Tho I am not crazy about having subs in-game.

I don't really want them either but what the OP proposes is what they should be.

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Adding subs will just make this game so much more of  a crap fest, but I do like your post.  Good effort.

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Just wondering....at what speed will the subs run on the surface / periscope depth / deep dive ?

And what about map placement ? These would have to be placed farther out on the map due to much slower speeds than surface ships .

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7 hours ago, Gafwmn said:

Just wondering....at what speed will the subs run on the surface / periscope depth / deep dive ?

And what about map placement ? These would have to be placed farther out on the map due to much slower speeds than surface ships .

That's a good question. Honestly that's something that would have to be tweaked bit by bit over time so as to find the algorithmic sweet spot.

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The problem I see is the simple fact that IF your doing 20 knots on the surface , that's pretty fast.....10 to 15 submerged , IF your lucky .

Another issue......if at periscope depth , you better be still , otherwise your gonna show a wake from the 'scope that's visible for miles .

Seems like some ol' fashioned C64 Silent Service " stuff "  would come into play .

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1 minute ago, Gafwmn said:

The problem I see is the simple fact that IF your doing 20 knots on the surface , that's pretty fast.....10 to 15 submerged , IF your lucky .

Another issue......if at periscope depth , you better be still , otherwise your gonna show a wake from the 'scope that's visible for miles .

Seems like some ol' fashioned C64 Silent Service " stuff "  would come into play .

Good points really. The speeds of the subs at different depths would need to be fine-tuned after lots of play testing to get it somewhere decent. I feel like if we just pick numbers out of thin air without testing them it might be a bit of putting the cart before the horse, especially since it's a call that WG will ultimately make regardless of what we the players think would work.

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I chose the Silent Service game because it also had upgrades ( higher tier subs ) , each with its own qwirks…...was actually 1 sub that was faster underwater than on the surface .

But , you had to position yourself properly to get good tracks on targets.....which were mostly merchant ships with escorts , or full fledged battle group . So , the sub would have to be placed rather close to the fight right from the start . One other thing I see would be that ( sorry , no easy ride here ) subs cannot cap.....they could defend but no cap . UNLESS.....sub could cap , BUT must remain on the surface the entire time to do so , being a really juicy target . Gotta be trade-offs somewhere .

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1 minute ago, Gafwmn said:

I chose the Silent Service game because it also had upgrades ( higher tier subs ) , each with its own qwirks…...was actually 1 sub that was faster underwater than on the surface .

But , you had to position yourself properly to get good tracks on targets.....which were mostly merchant ships with escorts , or full fledged battle group . So , the sub would have to be placed rather close to the fight right from the start . One other thing I see would be that ( sorry , no easy ride here ) subs cannot cap.....they could defend but no cap . UNLESS.....sub could cap , BUT must remain on the surface the entire time to do so , being a really juicy target . Gotta be trade-offs somewhere .

I thought about the capping issue myself actually. That's why I made it so that when surfaced, they cap/defend at 100% strength like a normal surface ship, but at periscope depth this is reduced to 50% since they have SOME resilience to artillery (though not total immunity). Then if they are at "deep" depth they cannot cap or defend at all. That way if they are contributing to the objective, they have to be vulnerable. As for these percentages, they could also be tweaked by WG for balance purposes as much as needed.

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I do see it , but not how you do . A sub never , never , NEVER wants to be caught on the surface.....no armor to speak of....fighters can blow holes in them , let alone a surface ship....all it would take is 1 or 2 rounds from a DD's pop gun and she is toast . Subs would make a DD actually feel like it really does have armor....

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7 hours ago, Gafwmn said:

I do see it , but not how you do . A sub never , never , NEVER wants to be caught on the surface.....no armor to speak of....fighters can blow holes in them , let alone a surface ship....all it would take is 1 or 2 rounds from a DD's pop gun and she is toast . Subs would make a DD actually feel like it really does have armor....

I will concede that in realistic situations, you're right. However, because the primary wielder of depth charges is likely to be DDs (with probably a few other ships here and there) how is the rest of a team supposed to counteract a submarine if all the DD's are dead at the end of the match? What if none of the remaining ships have depth charges? I mean let's be real here, this isn't a very historically accurate game, it's more of an historically-themed naval arcade game. So there has to be some means of allowing other ships to attack and counteract submarines, otherwise a single submarine hiding in the corner of the map could force the game into a stalemate or even a victory because none of the other ships can even reach them. Which would end up being exploited like crazy. The reason for the capping/defending with subs (although an unrealistic use of subs, I will admit) is to:

  1. To ensure that submarines are incentivized to surface at least once in a while so they're still in the battle some of the time and so the rest of the ships can remain tactically relevant.
  2. Make sure submarine players can contribute to the objective portion of a game and be team players. Otherwise if all they can do is hunt down ships, then they'll all YOLO and run off on their own since they can't help defend or capture anyway.

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Yes , it will be interesting to see how WG does this....I see on many models what looks like sub hunting equipment.....depth charges , hedgehog batteries , and a few others like K-guns .

The problem is balancing how they actually operate . They need to surface to recharge the batteries that provide power when submerged and for fresh air as the CO2 scrubber tech was still new at the time .

Any damage that a sub takes would preclude them being able to dive...I see a limited repair party consumable that will NOT be able to fix any major damage , ie… rudder , bow / stern planes , ballast tanks , etc . Any of these would leave it vulnerable .

But , for some reason I see subs winding up like carriers...….the love / hate thing .

And I also would like to say that this has been a interesting discussion....we throw ideas back and forth , using game data as well as real data , and nobody has pitchforks and torches at the ready . I salute you .

After another few more cups of coffee I'll see about adding more to the discussion .

Maybe we will finally get to see a sub with a screen door......

Edited by Gafwmn
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On 4/1/2020 at 8:53 AM, Gafwmn said:

Yes , it will be interesting to see how WG does this....I see on many models what looks like sub hunting equipment.....depth charges , hedgehog batteries , and a few others like K-guns .

The problem is balancing how they actually operate . They need to surface to recharge the batteries that provide power when submerged and for fresh air as the CO2 scrubber tech was still new at the time .

Any damage that a sub takes would preclude them being able to dive...I see a limited repair party consumable that will NOT be able to fix any major damage , ie… rudder , bow / stern planes , ballast tanks , etc . Any of these would leave it vulnerable .

But , for some reason I see subs winding up like carriers...….the love / hate thing .

And I also would like to say that this has been a interesting discussion....we throw ideas back and forth , using game data as well as real data , and nobody has pitchforks and torches at the ready . I salute you .

After another few more cups of coffee I'll see about adding more to the discussion .

Maybe we will finally get to see a sub with a screen door......

Cheers dude! Maybe for April Fools we can get a screen door attachment.

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