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wstugamd

Thoughts on CB ship make up for new season

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With either a cv or bb I think the bb will be little used? Which cv would you bring and why? I’m assuming Hak or Midway. Not sure RN cv has the alpha strike need. 
 

DDs? Any? Groz, Smallad,Halland would be redeemable choices with their aa maybe Gearing. But do you need a dd with a cv spotting? 
 

cruisers. DM/Salem/ PR obvious. Goliath? Really good aa. Moscva?  Venezia has good AA but if dds are scarce not sure they will have roll. Zao/Henry/Yoshino lack the AA to flank solo. Hindi could be strong. Stali is dead. 
 

CL does the Worcester, Mino work? Smolensk will be strong. 
 

thoughts on overall make up and strategy? 

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I'll take Grozovoi. 

Minnow/Wooster would be strong picks for AA.

Couple PR for radar. 

Thunderer for AA?

.....

Out of blue, Kleber for anti CV run?

 

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First thoughts:

Always run CV. Hak is probably the pick, although any of the three can perform, and I would not be surprised to see any of the three as the eventual winner competitive-wise, if any winner emerges.

What I really hope it doesn't devolve into, but might devolve into, is a Puerto Rico season. PR fulfills the AA ship role while being tanky (as in it's movement isn't restricted to rocks or by CV), has the potential to punish broadsides at range, and carries radar. You don't want to island hump with CV running around, so things like Stalingrad, Des Moines, or Moskva lose some of their meta relevance. Venezia is still a fine kiting ship I think, as especially if the CV pick is Hak Venezia has the tools to not die for a long time on a flank with it's panic smoke and insane manuverability. It could be a choice, but that's going to be a late stage meta option, when we know where ships want to camp. Not sure how well it performs against a Puerto Rico. The SAP on Venezia is odd. Worc or Mino are interesting picks, but I don't think either will be a pick without a clear plan on every map for them. The IFHE nerf has neutered Worc from being an obvious pick, and Mino is Mino, and tends to explode on you at random intervals. Smolensk is a good 1 off option as always, although its less scary now.

DD you are going to see american smoke ships or Daring depending on how people are using a DD. A smoke comp using Gearing/Sommers is interesting, especially if the Russians get pushed out a bit, but may leave you low on firepower. Daring is a good tool if you want to try a defensive early cap game, where you cap aggressively to start, then try to hold that advantage until it forces the enemy to make a poor move, but it lacks the utility or flexibility of other DDs. Shima isn't the worst pick ever due to its air detection, but... yeah. As a tool to force people out of smoke if we develop some sort of smoke meta? I don't think its going to see more play than it did before at the very least, as its main utility as a spotting stick is hampered big time by CV communication.

That's about all I can think of right now. Granted things will change, but those are my early picks for solid bets next CW season.

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2 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

I'll take Grozovoi. 

Minnow/Wooster would be strong picks for AA.

Couple PR for radar. 

Thunderer for AA?

.....

Out of blue, Kleber for anti CV run?

 

Cant run Thunderer and CV at the same time, so Thunderer is out.

Grozovoi doesn't have the AA power she once had, so while I love the ship I don't think she beats out just sliding in another cruiser or taking an American DD for its smoke. Gearing and Groz have comparable AA power last I checked, and at least by the numbers Gearing beats it out. Neither is a threat for tier 10 planes on a competent CV pilot. Groz lasts longer is a drawn out fight because of its heals and more disposable smoke, but it also doesn't do anything for you compared to gearing smoke, Legendary Mod detection, and 16km torps. IMO.

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11 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

 

.....

Out of blue, Kleber for anti CV run?

 

in a random sure. In CB sole ships will get massacured by CV, and Kleber has no AA for a T10 cv and ariel detection is huge for a dd. The detection nerf killed the Kleber

10 minutes ago, Sou1forge said:

First thoughts:

Always run CV. Hak is probably the pick, although any of the three can perform, and I would not be surprised to see any of the three as the eventual winner competitive-wise, if any winner emerges.

What I really hope it doesn't devolve into, but might devolve into, is a Puerto Rico season. PR fulfills the AA ship role while being tanky (as in it's movement isn't restricted to rocks or by CV), has the potential to punish broadsides at range, and carries radar. You don't want to island hump with CV running around, so things like Stalingrad, Des Moines, or Moskva lose some of their meta relevance. Venezia is still a fine kiting ship I think, as especially if the CV pick is Hak Venezia has the tools to not die for a long time on a flank with it's panic smoke and insane manuverability. It could be a choice, but that's going to be a late stage meta option, when we know where ships want to camp. Not sure how well it performs against a Puerto Rico. The SAP on Venezia is odd. Worc or Mino are interesting picks, but I don't think either will be a pick without a clear plan on every map for them. The IFHE nerf has neutered Worc from being an obvious pick, and Mino is Mino, and tends to explode on you at random intervals. Smolensk is a good 1 off option as always, although its less scary now.

DD you are going to see american smoke ships or Daring depending on how people are using a DD. A smoke comp using Gearing/Sommers is interesting, especially if the Russians get pushed out a bit, but may leave you low on firepower. Daring is a good tool if you want to try a defensive early cap game, where you cap aggressively to start, then try to hold that advantage until it forces the enemy to make a poor move, but it lacks the utility or flexibility of other DDs. Shima isn't the worst pick ever due to its air detection, but... yeah. As a tool to force people out of smoke if we develop some sort of smoke meta? I don't think its going to see more play than it did before at the very least, as its main utility as a spotting stick is hampered big time by CV communication.

That's about all I can think of right now. Granted things will change, but those are my early picks for solid bets next CW season.

Thank you for your thoughts. PR could be the go to over the DM like you said. I hadn't thought of them as straight up replacing the DM/Salem. Venezia will be an interesting pick. Thoughts on the Moscva or the new russians? What about hindi as the other cruiser to the PR? Good AA. Can kite or run as a power cruiser and flex in match.

I didn't realize Groz AA had been neutered that bad. Gearings will be plentiful then if a dd is run at all. Gearing and mino or woost or smoli could run AA traps toggling their AA on and off and try to whittle the planes down. I agree with you on the CLs being questionable due to their ability to go boom except of course the super light battleship Smolensk.  Halland's AA if it's anything like the t8 and t9 could be really good. Smalland with radar could be an interesting choice. It will be interesting to see if dds are effective.

I know CV mains get more out of Hak than Midway. Do you feel the AP bombs are easy enough to land against ca/cl vs HE and which would more reliably generate damage? Midway also can bring the Tiny Tims if DDs aren't a factor. The Hak torps are superb, and the speed advantage against nimble cruisers is an advantage. Can you explain the RN CVs strenghts in CB? Truly and informative question and not a flame. I find their torps lacking, and carpet bombs a great way to stack fires in randoms but dependent on RNG for pen dmg.

Going to be interesting

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1 hour ago, wstugamd said:

in a random sure. In CB sole ships will get massacured by CV, and Kleber has no AA for a T10 cv and ariel detection is huge for a dd. The detection nerf killed the Kleber

Thank you for your thoughts. PR could be the go to over the DM like you said. I hadn't thought of them as straight up replacing the DM/Salem. Venezia will be an interesting pick. Thoughts on the Moscva or the new russians? What about hindi as the other cruiser to the PR? Good AA. Can kite or run as a power cruiser and flex in match.

I didn't realize Groz AA had been neutered that bad. Gearings will be plentiful then if a dd is run at all. Gearing and mino or woost or smoli could run AA traps toggling their AA on and off and try to whittle the planes down. I agree with you on the CLs being questionable due to their ability to go boom except of course the super light battleship Smolensk.  Halland's AA if it's anything like the t8 and t9 could be really good. Smalland with radar could be an interesting choice. It will be interesting to see if dds are effective.

I know CV mains get more out of Hak than Midway. Do you feel the AP bombs are easy enough to land against ca/cl vs HE and which would more reliably generate damage? Midway also can bring the Tiny Tims if DDs aren't a factor. The Hak torps are superb, and the speed advantage against nimble cruisers is an advantage. Can you explain the RN CVs strenghts in CB? Truly and informative question and not a flame. I find their torps lacking, and carpet bombs a great way to stack fires in randoms but dependent on RNG for pen dmg.

Going to be interesting

Moskva and the Stalingrad have decent enough AA + can take DFAA if thats really what people need them to do, but they really, really, really don't like getting spotted early. It prevents them going where they want to fast, as they need to angle like a BB under fire. They can't do the wiggle and kite thing all that well with their big citadels and poor handling. You can bunch them up (2+) and rely on their great AA range to cover themselves and other ships, but playing island waifu is a trap with CV running around. You could mitigate it by having your CV play babysitter with planes, but that starts to stretch a lot of focus and resources into a ship. Something like DM with legendary mod starts to look attractive at that point. It does the smoke firing thing better, and has more reactive maneuverability to allow you to not get AP cit from bombers or torped from planes (it will still eat damage from a good pilot. No ship is CV immune.). Neither Moska nor Stalingrad is a bad option still, as they can sorta pretend to be a BB as long as you give them AA support with planes or another ship, but they won't be as dominant of a choice IMO. Out of all my calls meta wise, I'm most apprehensive saying the meta will shift out of a stable of 1-3ish Russian radar boys. They seem to always be more meta-proof than they first appear.

Hindy isn't good. Lutjens doesn't proc his talents in CB, the ship doesn't have the AA power to stop a CV, it's slow, is not maneuverable, and doesn't carry enough DPM to make up for this. It also doesn't like the new meta that can bring a lot of improved-angle AP to the field. In prior experience a Hindy in theory should be a good matchup into a Stalin for instance, but in practice I found it much more difficult because of angling issues. You need your guns to make a dent in time, but if you get them into action the Stalin can pen you. That's a dangerous game to be playing, especially with a CV around that can also dunk on you. Venezia does 90% of what Hindy does but comes with spotter plane, panic smoke, an even better armor scheme, and the maneuverability/speed Hindy lacks. It doesn't kill a RU cruiser in the same time without preferential angling, but its much safer at creating those angles you want.

I doubt Smalland or Halland will be chosen, but they are for sure the wild cards of the season. From what I've heard their AA is really close to being good enough to make a CV pass, but the lack of smoke makes the option really, really sketchy. They need some combination of insane air detection, speed, or smoke on top of great AA to make them a solid choice in a CV meta, and I don't think they got enough. If either of the ships gets picked I would put money on the Smalland, although if radar on a DD was enough to make it playable we would see Yueyang getting played. We don't, so I kinda doubt slapping a bit more AA and a heal on a similar platform in a CV meta is going to push the edge, although it is certainly tech worth giving a test whorl or two. I don't have experience on either Smalland or Halland. I don't think it's going to be a repeat of Kleb though, where the new ship dominates an entire meta.

Hak is played because of the AP bombs. Burst damage is key in CW. Being able to derp off stupid chunks of a cruisers HP is worth a whole squadron if it secures an early kill. Especially on something like a radar ship. Midway in a drag out fight looks interesting though. Midway can make good use out of every part of its arsenal, whereas Hak wants to avoid its rockets if it can. Buffs have closed that gap. On the other side Audacious used to be a safe option with its very forgiving torp bombers, although I have no clue what recent changes have done to that ship. All the CVs have suffered a bit, so it's less clear to me any ship is the far out choice. Bets on Hak or Midway though.

Edited by Sou1forge
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Although take all my advice with a healthy dose of salt. I'm not exactly calling for Hurricane clans here, and don't have the connections to give you the inside scoop on what the best of the best are thinking. I'm just a guy who plays moderately well, and likes thinking about these things. It's the most enjoyable part of WoWS for me. I'd like to think I'm good at it, but my inability to drag my clan up to the big boy tables probably tells you something. WoWS ever changing meta is an amazing puzzle than never ceases to surprise me. No doubt there are things I've said that more experience people will be able to challenge.

Edited by Sou1forge

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The disadvantages of not running a CV are simply far too high, so BBs are right out. There are some discussions about whether one can use a BB along with other super cruisers to yolo push, but since CV spotting occurs within the first 30 seconds any opposing team worth their salt will have more than enough time to prepare and adjust accordingly. Aside from being damage sponges CVs outright beat BBs in pretty much every way. Not to mention that super cruisers such as Stalin or PR can be used to at least partially substitute a BB anyway.

Running a DD is practically a no go for a lot of reasons. DDs provide you with nothing that other ships cannot do better. Matches will be decided primarily by gun power due to the immense spotting potential of CVs and DDs are simply lacking in this regard compared to cruisers. If you want smoke, a Mino or Smolensk will do just fine while bringing far more firepower and utility to the table. DD spotting is simply unneeded because, again, CVs do the job far better and finally by picking a DD you're actively gimping the AA potential of your team. Remember, you only have 6 surface ships on the field. By picking a DD you're essentially reducing the AA opposition for the enemy CV from 6 ships to 5 because all DDs, including the new PEU ones, have sub-par AA.

Which leaves cruisers. Picks here now will depend on the meta. I expect to see Mino, Smolensk, Stalin, PR, DM, and Worcester a lot. Cannot say for sure what is optimal yet, it depends on how the meta develops. It's entirely possible that the optimal composition is just to pick 1 CV 6 Stalin to abuse the early spotting in combination with accurate long range fire as we've already seen in 12vs12 CBs. What I can say for sure is that DM and Worcester might not be as good as a pick as they may at first seem as they're reliant on island cover, something that CVs can abuse, and in the case of DM her AA is actually quite bad. If they're going to be played they're gonna need smoke, limiting your choices.

As for CVs themselves, there is practically speaking nothing an Audacious does that a Midway doesn't do better. Midway herself is actually quite versatile in her options and might be worth a look depending on how the meta goes. Haku will most likely be the best pick though as she has the best damage potential available against the cruisers listed above while not lacking in anti DD/BB either, providing a pretty safe choice assuming you're skilled enough.

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i totally could see one CV and a bunch of Marceau,  who know went the FDR will come out as well

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I think it’s likely we will run a cv and the rest cruisers strat. Made up of mostly Venezia or Balensk , Balansgrad, DM, and Moskva. I’m sure there will be a PR and maybe a mino mixed in at some point also. 

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7 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

There are some discussions about whether one can use a BB along with other super cruisers to yolo push, but since CV spotting occurs within the first 30 seconds any opposing team worth their salt will have more than enough time to prepare and adjust accordingly.

I think BB yolo pushes might be viable in lower leagues....but I would be very surprised to see many, if any, BBs successfully used in Typhoon/Hurricane.

Edited by yashma

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Its a good thing CVs are well balanced so teams that choose BBs will be at no disadvantage when paired against a CV.

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1 hour ago, Taichunger said:

Its a good thing CVs are well balanced so teams that choose BBs will be at no disadvantage when paired against a CV.

Who knows, maybe this season will lead to the heavy nerfs you have been hoping for, since they like to nerf ships that overperform in CBs, look at Hindenburg and Yueyang for examples.

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9 hours ago, Sou1forge said:

Moskva and the Stalingrad have decent enough AA + can take DFAA if thats really what people need them to do, but they really, really, really don't like getting spotted early. It prevents them going where they want to fast, as they need to angle like a BB under fire.

 

9 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

The disadvantages of not running a CV are simply far too high, so BBs are right out.

Thank both of you for your thoughts. I'm just trying to get an idea on how to form a team. Thanks for the imput

 

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BBs and DDs are "dead" this CB, no one smart will go for a BB instead of a CV. And there is no reason to bring a DD. DDs will be a dead weight vs a good CV, just a wasted ship. 

 

Mino and Smolensk will be much more valueable now, they will probably take the DD spot as sneaky ships. Moskva and Stalingrad importance goes up, they can partially take the BB role, they also have long range to blap ships that the CV spots. 

 

I saw some people talking about Salem/DM/Wooster, i dont think their value will be that high, they need to get close to the enemy team and park behind islands, this will make them easy preys to competent CVs. 

 

IMO the picks will be mostly, Hak and Midway for CVs. Mino and Smolensk for the smoke. Moskva and Stalin for tankiness and long range guns. Maybe Hindy and Yoshino for long range HE spam. 

Edited by Xlap

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12 minutes ago, Xlap said:

BBs and DDs are "dead" this CB, no one smart will go for a BB instead of a CV. And there is no reason to bring a DD. DDs will be a dead weight vs a good CV, just a wasted ship. 

 

Mino and Smolensk will be much more valueable now, they will probably take the DD spot as sneaky ships. Moskva and Stalingrad importance goes up, they can partially take the BB role, they also have long range to blap ships that the CV spots. 

 

I saw some people talking about Salem/DM/Wooster, i dont think their value will be that high, they need to get close to the enemy team and park behind islands, this will make them easy preys to competent CVs. 

 

IMO the picks will be mostly, Hak and Midway for CVs. Mino and Smolensk for the smoke. Moskva and Stalin for tankiness and long range guns. Maybe Hindy and Yoshino for long range HE spam. 

I agree with you. I think any ship running solo like yoshino or hindi with range mod sitting off the battle alone will be easy CV target.

 

If the Stali/Moskva can stay unseen until they get into position and have nearby AA they will be good. I think the new RU cruisers that will come in midway into the season have lower det and stupid strong guns and obviously "balanced" AA will be a factor

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First of all, if MM will throw non CV teams vs. CVs, not bringing a CV is basically an auto loss unless the enemy team's CV is extra special that somehow gets deplaned by a Somers.

Cruisers, weirdly, perhaps Salem and Worcester might see rises in popularity, as they are the only T10 cruisers that can mount radar and DFAA in one slot, and one of the few ships that can actually kill most of a CVs squadron before its first attack run, albeit their radar is pretty short ranged.

DDs, basically, Gearing, Grozovoi, Halland, Marceau (if she's released during this season) and Daring are about the only DDs that can actually do something about CVs, the rest forget about.

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11 hours ago, yashma said:

I think BB yolo pushes might be viable in lower leagues....but I would be very surprised to see many, if any, BBs successfully used in Typhoon/Hurricane.

Why not? Wouldn't a escorted BB be kind of safe from the CV?

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On 3/28/2020 at 11:53 PM, wstugamd said:

With either a cv or bb I think the bb will be little used? Which cv would you bring and why? I’m assuming Hak or Midway. Not sure RN cv has the alpha strike need. 
 

DDs? Any? Groz, Smallad,Halland would be redeemable choices with their aa maybe Gearing. But do you need a dd with a cv spotting? 
 

cruisers. DM/Salem/ PR obvious. Goliath? Really good aa. Moscva?  Venezia has good AA but if dds are scarce not sure they will have roll. Zao/Henry/Yoshino lack the AA to flank solo. Hindi could be strong. Stali is dead. 
 

CL does the Worcester, Mino work? Smolensk will be strong. 
 

thoughts on overall make up and strategy? 

 

On 3/29/2020 at 1:49 AM, El2aZeR said:

The disadvantages of not running a CV are simply far too high, so BBs are right out. There are some discussions about whether one can use a BB along with other super cruisers to yolo push, but since CV spotting occurs within the first 30 seconds any opposing team worth their salt will have more than enough time to prepare and adjust accordingly. Aside from being damage sponges CVs outright beat BBs in pretty much every way. Not to mention that super cruisers such as Stalin or PR can be used to at least partially substitute a BB anyway.

Running a DD is practically a no go for a lot of reasons. DDs provide you with nothing that other ships cannot do better. Matches will be decided primarily by gun power due to the immense spotting potential of CVs and DDs are simply lacking in this regard compared to cruisers. If you want smoke, a Mino or Smolensk will do just fine while bringing far more firepower and utility to the table. DD spotting is simply unneeded because, again, CVs do the job far better and finally by picking a DD you're actively gimping the AA potential of your team. Remember, you only have 6 surface ships on the field. By picking a DD you're essentially reducing the AA opposition for the enemy CV from 6 ships to 5 because all DDs, including the new PEU ones, have sub-par AA.

Which leaves cruisers. Picks here now will depend on the meta. I expect to see Mino, Smolensk, Stalin, PR, DM, and Worcester a lot. Cannot say for sure what is optimal yet, it depends on how the meta develops. It's entirely possible that the optimal composition is just to pick 1 CV 6 Stalin to abuse the early spotting in combination with accurate long range fire as we've already seen in 12vs12 CBs. What I can say for sure is that DM and Worcester might not be as good as a pick as they may at first seem as they're reliant on island cover, something that CVs can abuse, and in the case of DM her AA is actually quite bad. If they're going to be played they're gonna need smoke, limiting your choices.

As for CVs themselves, there is practically speaking nothing an Audacious does that a Midway doesn't do better. Midway herself is actually quite versatile in her options and might be worth a look depending on how the meta goes. Haku will most likely be the best pick though as she has the best damage potential available against the cruisers listed above while not lacking in anti DD/BB either, providing a pretty safe choice assuming you're skilled enough.

Everything he said. I was going to say pretty much the same thing but in worse grammar. :Smile_trollface:

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On 3/29/2020 at 9:20 AM, DemonGod3 said:

Who knows, maybe this season will lead to the heavy nerfs you have been hoping for, since they like to nerf ships that overperform in CBs, look at Hindenburg and Yueyang for examples.

That might be the one bright spot. Though this whole venture of including CVs is so foolhardy.

 For one they are straight up balanced to be 1 carrier for 11 ships.  Even CV pilots here and on reddit don't seem to like 2 CV games which equates to  1 carrier for 6 ships.   

Next WG knows they don't fit in competitive. Their own employees admitted this almost universally on the english stream  last KoTs.    Also in the last year we saw multiple attempts by WG to test and  come up with some kind of way  to make CVs fit.  - 30 second launch delay  which was rejected because "too boring" and mini-map spotting only which was rejected because  " not effective" .     Yet @Sub_Octavian  is nothing if not stubborn  so they  now get included at the expense of upsetting a large part of the competitive players this game has left.   

Edited by eviltane

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15 hours ago, brpas said:

Why not? Wouldn't a escorted BB be kind of safe from the CV?

They would be spotted from space and a good team can easily counter that

The unlimited spotting advantage CV's give in addition to their ability to easily finish off heavily damaged ships (how many CB games are won/lost thanks to that one ship you/they can't finish off before he gets in cover?) makes it impossible to take a BB.

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Hak will likely be the choice for CV besides alpha, better concealment then the Midway or Audacious.   BBs will be scarce I would think.  USN DDs with Smoke and an AA build or Groz AA Build will be the choices at DD.  Mino/Smolley/Wooster/Colbert will see a lot of action.

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On 3/29/2020 at 12:49 AM, El2aZeR said:

including the new PEU ones, have sub-par AA.

You are underestimating how totally nutbars PEU AA is. Halland and Smaland have AA superior to all of the standard cruisers except Worcester and Minotaur, possibly adding Venezia if you value DPS highly over range. Stalingrad and Puerto Rico have roughly similar combined long/mid-range DPS, Stalin is probably better with its 8 flak bursts and longer long range, PR has the benefit of a 2.0km range band.

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17 hours ago, brpas said:

Why not? Wouldn't a escorted BB be kind of safe from the CV?

A BB in a blob of 7 ships would be reasonably safe, but it's spotted constantly starting 30 seconds into the game and it's very easy for the other team to crossfire the blob since they aren't spotted at all.

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