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LaurenBacall

WG...go back to co-op

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A lot of new players in randoms these days and that's a good thing. However, I often read more experienced players (presumably) telling the "poor" newbie players to, "go back to co-op". Why? What do you you honestly expect new players to learn from co-op? Co-op doesn't play anything like randoms. And that made me think, isn't this kind of a big problem for the community at-large? The game is difficult to learn - shouldn't WG provide a more helpful "solo" mode for new players to be able to actually learn how to play? (Hint: it's not going in, all guns blazing, hoping for an alpha hit or a torpedo barrage).

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6 minutes ago, LaurenBacall said:

A lot of new players in randoms these days and that's a good thing. However, I often read more experienced players (presumably) telling the "poor" newbie players to, "go back to co-op". Why? What do you you honestly expect new players to learn from co-op? Co-op doesn't play anything like randoms.

I agree. Unless you plan to make it your go-to, Co-op is good for learning to shoot and drive your ship, and that's about it.

6 minutes ago, LaurenBacall said:

And that made me think, isn't this kind of a big problem for the community at-large? The game is difficult to learn - shouldn't WG provide a more helpful "solo" mode for new players to be able to actually learn how to play? (Hint: it's not going in, all guns blazing, hoping for an alpha hit or a torpedo barrage).

It would be good, the problem IMO is that they'd have to put a lot of work in to make bots play more like humans, and continually tweak it as the meta changed. 

And if they don't like the current meta, and plan to drive a change, players would be learning the wrong things.

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I think the Training room is there for the whole solo thing, but at the same time, not every one has access to it

But you do make a fairly good point. The whole "n00b" thing is largely based upon simple superiority complex issues that most people develop as they go on through the game, and they feel inclined to let themselves make other people look stupid. It's just bad manners

Not like we can just implement Skill based MM to fix it either. Doing so would ruin the game completely

:SerB:

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Co-op should teach what you can do with your ship, and it should teach you how to avoid taking excess damage and how to mitigate it when you do, but it can't teach you how to play against a human player, or 12 of them. These are simple facts. The only way to learn to play against human players is to play against human players.

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15 minutes ago, LaurenBacall said:

.... I often read more experienced players (presumably) telling the "poor" newbie players to, "go back to co-op". Why? What do you you honestly expect new players to learn from co-op? Co-op doesn't play anything like randoms. And that made me think, isn't this kind of a big problem for the community at-large? ....

That's just bad etiquette.  Players should be offering advice, not using their knowledge and ability to bully an inexperienced player so that they feel better about themselves.

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24 minutes ago, LaurenBacall said:

A lot of new players in randoms these days and that's a good thing. However, I often read more experienced players (presumably) telling the "poor" newbie players to, "go back to co-op". Why? What do you you honestly expect new players to learn from co-op? Co-op doesn't play anything like randoms. And that made me think, isn't this kind of a big problem for the community at-large? The game is difficult to learn - shouldn't WG provide a more helpful "solo" mode for new players to be able to actually learn how to play? (Hint: it's not going in, all guns blazing, hoping for an alpha hit or a torpedo barrage).

I just ignore it.  I often get comments like this thrown at me (go play co-op, you're a noob, etc) even though I'm pretty sure that I'm good enough to play randoms.  I ignore it because 99% of the time these comments are being thrown around by mediocre/poor players that don't realize that they're the ones that are playing like noobs.  I just laugh at them.

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It's a sad fact that there are a lot of players who call out other players who don't play up to their expectations, however unfounded those expectations are.  They show up in all modes of play - I had a co-op game where one player went with one other ship to cap A, and pretty much the rest of us went to C, which happened to be where the bulk of the bots went.  He then called all of us out for lingering at A while the 3 bots at C sank him.  We were all pretty busy taken care of the sips at C, and considering we were T4 ships, getting all the way across the map was going to take time anyway, especially in a Wyoming!  Never once at the beginning did he ask for support - he must have thought we were mind readers.....

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actually trying to help would take effort, far easier to just yell & vent for their perceived shortcomings. esp when it deflects from others looking at them

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40 minutes ago, KrasnyKrimzonOktyabrskya said:

Co-op should teach what you can do with your ship, and it should teach you how to avoid taking excess damage and how to mitigate it when you do, but it can't teach you how to play against a human player, or 12 of them. These are simple facts. The only way to learn to play against human players is to play against human players.

Except, especially of late, the bots are playing better than many humans.

In any case; five years and 20k+ games in, I still get gripes from folks who think I’m not playing to their expectations. Usually having a quarter or less than my game total.

My tendency is to help where I can, but being a loner, it’s usually when someone asks me a direct question, though I have offered help to some I’ve seen struggling.

23 minutes ago, Roadster311 said:

I have been playing more coop lately. Less stressful

This. So much this.

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Co-op is the new CV


1 hour ago, KrasnyKrimzonOktyabrskya said:

Co-op should teach what you can do with your ship, and it should teach you how to avoid taking excess damage and how to mitigate it when you do, but it can't teach you how to play against a human player, or 12 of them. These are simple facts. The only way to learn to play against human players is to play against human players.

The % of what is necessary to play a human that comes from "what you can do with your ship"  & "how to avoid taking excess damage"   &  "how to mitigate it when you do"   is higher then most people realise.

&

The assumption that PvP is the pinnacle of game play is....flawed.

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1 hour ago, Murcc said:

That's just bad etiquette.  Players should be offering advice, not using their knowledge and ability to bully an inexperienced player so that they feel better about themselves.

 

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coop = warmup games

 

as well for me it also means the place where a new ship goes for shakedown cruise.

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Its rude, but warships players are by far the most obstinate group of gamers I have seen, most likely because the average age is higher than most games.  Truth hurts, but the game doesn't teach you anything and combined with that behavior/attitude players never get any better.  

Let's take away this game as the pretext:  If you told me you for example, made paper airplanes for a living and you made like... 10 thousand of them but if you pull your 1000th plane and 10000th one and yet they're equally shoddy, does that not say "unwilling to improve"?

I'm sure what I said just now will hit home and offend someone, but I don't care.  WG's unwillingness to teach their playerbase combined with a unwillingness to learn and fragile ego means the player will never improve.  

People who play aren't stupid.  But they are willfully ignorant.  

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2 hours ago, Murcc said:

Players should be offering advice, not using their knowledge and ability to bully an inexperienced player so that they feel better about themselves.

Have you tried offering advice in battle? What's the response? After 9k+ battles, I've given up. What I post now is "stay alive". Its the only piece of *useful* advice that I can give that won't result in me getting reported for "telling others what to do." Which only reinforces my point - bad players make for bad games (which I don't enjoy). I can't "teach" them, and co-op doesn't teach them either. Case in point - broadsides showing vs. bow-tanking. EVERYONE should know the risks and benefits of both, yet almost no new players do. As a seasoned player, I find it hard to keep playing in games where I can call a match in the first two minutes just by watching how players position their ships (I play a lot of CVs so I see this from above.)

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2 hours ago, LaurenBacall said:

A lot of new players in randoms these days and that's a good thing. However, I often read more experienced players (presumably) telling the "poor" newbie players to, "go back to co-op". Why? What do you you honestly expect new players to learn from co-op? Co-op doesn't play anything like randoms. And that made me think, isn't this kind of a big problem for the community at-large? The game is difficult to learn - shouldn't WG provide a more helpful "solo" mode for new players to be able to actually learn how to play? (Hint: it's not going in, all guns blazing, hoping for an alpha hit or a torpedo barrage).

A good starting point might be if coop's bot AIs weren't so god damned stupid and presented an actual challenge.

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I actually LIKE co-op. It is relaxing, and (arguably) more fun for me than Random. Co-op has its issues we all well aware of but overall for me that's how I feel about it. I just wish it wouldn't end THAT fast and reward more.

Edit. If the bots didnt just rush the train it wouldve been better, and if the stupid mercy rule was eliminated, it would be awesome

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1 hour ago, LaurenBacall said:

A lot of new players in randoms these days and that's a good thing. However, I often read more experienced players (presumably) telling the "poor" newbie players to, "go back to co-op". Why? What do you you honestly expect new players to learn from co-op? Co-op doesn't play anything like randoms. And that made me think, isn't this kind of a big problem for the community at-large? The game is difficult to learn - shouldn't WG provide a more helpful "solo" mode for new players to be able to actually learn how to play? (Hint: it's not going in, all guns blazing, hoping for an alpha hit or a torpedo barrage).

You are correct, you do not learn much of anything applicable for randoms by playing coops. But the reason they tell newbies to play coops is mostly because they are arrogant.

 

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11 minutes ago, Crucis said:

A good starting point might be if coop's bot AIs weren't so god damned stupid and presented an actual challenge.

So why is this the case? They don't have to be perfect, just not balls-out suicidal. Even if they stop 50% of the time (at random) behind an island on in the smoke or what-not, it would be a huge improvement.

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6 minutes ago, LaurenBacall said:

So why is this the case? They don't have to be perfect, just not balls-out suicidal. Even if they stop 50% of the time (at random) behind an island on in the smoke or what-not, it would be a huge improvement.

The coop bots are stupid as hell because there's some portion of the coop community that pitched 5 kinds of fits the last time WG looked into upgrading the bot AI because, heaven forbid that coop bots not be completely stupid and those players can't stand the idea of not being able to win 95% of the time.

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If I say something like that it's because the player has demonstrated their inability to adapt in any way at all to randoms after thousands of games. Randoms simply isn't the place for them IMO.

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1 hour ago, John_Crace said:

If I say something like that it's because .....

Justification for ignorance is rarely wise.

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1 hour ago, Anonymous50 said:

Justification for ignorance is rarely wise.

In this context it appears you're saying I'm ignorant. If that is the case please explain.

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