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Wasaboi

Gimmicks that should be a standard

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Just for the hell of it, shooting off a list of gimmicks I believe should be standard for an entire ship type. Ships should never be balanced based on some gimmick and they should never be balanced based on some secondary/tertiary attribute (like trading Damage/survivability for AA power).

1.) RN Torpedoes - Single fire.
One of the things that offers the availability of skill, player skill, to flourish in a game is based on choices and the availability of choices. Choices offer consequences, both positive and negative. The more choices a player base, the more intuitive the system which brings that player more immersed. All DDs should have a multitude of options regarding their spread selection. This includes single fire. Instead of a cycle or toggle, they should always be allowed to edit the keybinding for each selection.



2.) Smoke - all types
All ships capable of equipping smoke, should have a range of options. The Smoke options could easily then be consolidated for more efficient choices. One could be USN Smoke, the other could be RN smoke, and another Italian types.

3.) Limited charge DCP 
There is no way around it. The data is very clear that CVs and BBs are overperforming, especially at high tiers, and have been for years. The main reason for this is that they are Low risk and High reward, which is the antithesis to balanced gameplay in this no respawn format. BBs should have the fast cooldown, but limited charge DCP that is currently only offered to Russian BBs. CVs should have the same, and require actual user input. This would certainly help balance out BBs by actually having skilled counterplay, just as it would require a little more skilled use and planning of the BB player as well.

4.) SAP
SAP would be a much more intuitive replacement for IFHE. That's right, make SAP a captain skill. Simple taking the captain skill replaces your HE with SAP which in turn simply buffs the penetration, damage range, etc of the normal HE values for your ship, at the cost of 0% fire chance. This could even be balanced by making the buff amount differ based on different ranges for gun sizes.

5.) 1/4 HE pen
This one should be a no-brainer. No ship should get 1/4 base HE pen unless ALL ships from the same type get 1/4 base HE pen. When you give a smaller size gun, which already benefits from other balancing factors like faster reload, ballistics, and typically higher quantity... when you also give it strengths that are meant to be afforded to larger guns... you completely undermine the balance of the game. IJN 100mm are a prime example. They have better base pen then ALL other Tier X DDs... even ones with 130 and 139mm... It is a complete joke. The same goes for Hindenburg too. It is already afforded the ballistics and RoF not afforded to larger guns. It would be like giving Stalingrad 10s base reload. I bet people would be up in arms about that, something that is essentially the SAME SIN.

6.) DWT
I believe DWT should be an option for all ships that have torpedoes available. However, these should be an option that requires you to equip it on the ship modules pane, before battle, and not something that can be toggled in battle. They would simply be a secondary choice for every single torpedo option available for that specific ship. It would greatly buff the parameters of the torpedo option it is based on, like speed... detection....reload.... but limit the target selection to say BBs and CVs. To give an example, with this change the Shima would have 6 torpedo options it could choose from to unlock and equip (one at a time obviously).

 

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So bland the game down and use cherry picked definitions of performance to justify changes.  Your usual shtick.

Edited by Helstrem
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takes away class/nation distinction, really don't see need for homogenized ships as would just make things bland

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1 hour ago, Varknyn12 said:

SAP would be a much more intuitive replacement for IFHE. That's right, make SAP a captain skill. Simple taking the captain skill replaces your HE with SAP which in turn simply buffs the penetration, damage range, etc of the normal HE values for your ship, at the cost of 0% fire chance. This could even be balanced by making the buff amount differ based on different ranges for gun sizes.

the thing here is, i dont think many other navies used SAP, afaik, Italy was the biggest user of it on their BBs, just imagine Yamato or the new 510mm super Yammy with SAP

Edited by tcbaker777

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11 minutes ago, tcbaker777 said:

the thing here is, i dont think many other navies used SAP, afaik, Italy was the biggest user of it on their BBs, just imagine Yamato or the new 510mm super Yammy with SAP

The game is arcade, not a sim. Read what I said again.

 

Quote

SAP would be a much more intuitive replacement for IFHE. That's right, make SAP a captain skill. Simple taking the captain skill replaces your HE with SAP which in turn simply buffs the penetration, damage range, etc of the normal HE values for your ship, at the cost of 0% fire chance. This could even be balanced by making the buff amount differ based on different ranges for gun sizes.

One of the big issues the game faces right now is everything is a gimmick. It doesn't need to be a mechanic based gimmick to create individuality between the nations. Many replies above, people fallaciously claimed my suggestions would create homogenization. I merely presented some of the gimmicks that I believe should be standard, some, not all. There are also attributes, which are the primary defining factors when it comes to balance. Take Yamato. It is more accurate at range and has overmatch capability in more situations. Those are defined by attributes, not a mechanic based gimmick like a completely new round type... or alternate torpedo spreads....or limited DCP.. Individuality should be defined more by attributes than something like "Main Battery Reload booster" or "Single fire torps"

Edited by Varknyn12

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So, you complain that BBs and CVs are too low risk... and also say they should have smoke? You do realize that all BBs would have to do is stop firing to get out of a bad situation and heal, while CV would benefit so much more since they don't need outside spotting to keep attacking, right?

Not to mention that you want to want to give all BBs the OP Russian DCP, the one that is responsible for many of them being OP by virtue of ignoring much of the DOT that people can dish out? That would be a huge buff to all of them.  

 

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11 minutes ago, Muninn77 said:

So, you complain that BBs and CVs are too low risk... and also say they should have smoke? You do realize that all BBs would have to do is stop firing to get out of a bad situation and heal, while CV would benefit so much more since they don't need outside spotting to keep attacking, right?

Not to mention that you want to want to give all BBs the OP Russian DCP, the one that is responsible for many of them being OP by virtue of ignoring much of the DOT that people can dish out? That would be a huge buff to all of them.  

 

WG sold the limited DCP as one of the balancing weaknesses of Russian BBs.  The fact that it is actually a strength has gone unnoticed by many, including the cherry picking OP.  On the other hand, I don't think he was saying all ships should have smoke, just that all ships that do have smoke should be able to use whatever variant of it that they would like to use.

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40 minutes ago, Muninn77 said:

So, you complain that BBs and CVs are too low risk... and also say they should have smoke? You do realize that all BBs would have to do is stop firing to get out of a bad situation and heal, while CV would benefit so much more since they don't need outside spotting to keep attacking, right?

Not to mention that you want to want to give all BBs the OP Russian DCP, the one that is responsible for many of them being OP by virtue of ignoring much of the DOT that people can dish out? That would be a huge buff to all of them.  

 

Where did I claim BBs and CVs should have smoke? Reading comprehension.

The Russian DCP is not OP. Especially considering the amount of base charges is easily tweakable for balance purposes. The DCP has nothing to do with Russian BBs being OP. It has to do with armor, and the fact the guns are still accurate at long range. Currently, BBs just like CVs do not have a valid counter. DoTs should be this counter which wouldn't undermine their strength in armor. I most certainly support flooding being un-nerfed, but also limited DCP would help solve this as well. If the charges were tweaked to just the right amount, BBs would have to properly execute their DCP use or risk going on for most of the match without any at all.

Edited by Varknyn12
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1 minute ago, Varknyn12 said:

Where did I claim BBs and CVs should have smoke? Reading comprehension.

The Russian DCP is not OP. Especially considering the amount of base charges is easily tweakable for balance purposes. The DCP has nothing to do with Russian BBs being OP. It has to do with armor, and the fact the guns are still accurate at long range.

My bad on the smoke. I mis-read that. I don't think that's a terrible idea, but I don't think it's a particularly good one either, since it removes a key way to make lines different from each other.

However, the DCP of Russian BBs are a large part of why they are OP, especially when combined with the armor. The armor gives quite a bit of immunity to direct damage, and the DCP does the same with DOT, resulting in ships that are incredibly hard to take down. And even if they only came with a single charge base, with premium consumables and superintendent, that's more than enough if someone plays smart.

Basically, instead of increasing counterplay, it would remove it. Right now, the two best ways to muscle past a BB's DCP is to force them to pop it and then set them on fire, or just have multiple ships pour on the fire before and after they pop the DCP. RU DCP removes the first as an option, in exchange for maybe being vulnerable near the end of the game.

And that's not even touching "SAP for any ship that wants it" thing.

Those HE spammers at T10 with SAP? Holy crap, that scares me just thinking about it. No fires needed, just ridiculous amounts of consistent DPM. Anything caught in the slightest crossfire would just melt.

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1 hour ago, tcbaker777 said:

the thing here is, i dont think many other navies used SAP, afaik, Italy was the biggest user of it on their BBs, just imagine Yamato or the new 510mm super Yammy with SAP

     Dunno about anything other than the USN, but in WW2 the US Navy had a standard general-purpose round called SP Common that was in fact a SAP-type round designed to pen up to 1/2 it's caliber but with a bigger burst charge than AP.

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19 minutes ago, Muninn77 said:

My bad on the smoke. I mis-read that. I don't think that's a terrible idea, but I don't think it's a particularly good one either, since it removes a key way to make lines different from each other.

However, the DCP of Russian BBs are a large part of why they are OP, especially when combined with the armor. The armor gives quite a bit of immunity to direct damage, and the DCP does the same with DOT, resulting in ships that are incredibly hard to take down. And even if they only came with a single charge base, with premium consumables and superintendent, that's more than enough if someone plays smart.

Basically, instead of increasing counterplay, it would remove it. Right now, the two best ways to muscle past a BB's DCP is to force them to pop it and then set them on fire, or just have multiple ships pour on the fire before and after they pop the DCP. RU DCP removes the first as an option, in exchange for maybe being vulnerable near the end of the game.

And that's not even touching "SAP for any ship that wants it" thing.

Those HE spammers at T10 with SAP? Holy crap, that scares me just thinking about it. No fires needed, just ridiculous amounts of consistent DPM. Anything caught in the slightest crossfire would just melt.

1.)  Non-attribute based gimmicks shouldn't be a key way to make lines different, that is lazy game design and creates a ripple effect of more balance issues. This was already addressed above.

2.) Except it is not. It is the armor and the accuracy at long range which still exists despite a dispersion curve that is supposed to create otherwise. Additionally, I clearly said can be tweaked by base charge. Lets take your example of 1 base charge. (3) with SI. It would be VERY easy for a BB to run out of DCP well before even half a match is over.

3.) It doesn't remove the counter play. In fact, it builds upon it. If you light a BB and he pops a limited charge DCP, and then when the action time is finished you light another. Well he either can let the fire burn completely or chose to burn through what is already most of his charges. If the charges are limited, making the BB burn through the charges *IS* counterplay.

4.) What are the primary factors of SAP that sets it apart from normal HE?  a.) Higher Pen.   b.) No fire chance.   Hmmmm... sounds very similar to what IFHE does, just not fully to that side of the spectrum. The rest is just a logical fallacy as I clearly, on multiple occasions now, reiterated that my suggestion included the buff be based on ranges of gun sizes.

Edited by Varknyn12
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2 hours ago, Varknyn12 said:

BBs should have the fast cooldown, but limited charge DCP that is currently only offered to Russian BBs. 

Why do I get the feeling he's never played a Russian BB?

Has anyone ever needed an extra DCP when playing a Russian BB?

Sure, go ahead and make them all Russian-style lol.

Edited by Skpstr
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4 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Why do I get the feeling he's never played a Russian BB?

Has anyone ever needed an extra DCP when playing a Russian BB?

Sure, go ahead and make them all Russian-style lol.

Considering that he seems to think you could burn through three before the match is half over normally, I'm inclined to agree with you.

Valk, I'm out. You've been dancing around actually addressing my points, mostly in ways that betray a lack of understanding about the game. Unless you are using a DCP every time you get a single fire, RU BBs should never run out of DCP. And the problem with SAP on every ship is that unless you completely gut the bonus to damage and pen to the point it's almost the same as HE, it's still a huge DPM increase to already high DPM ships.

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4 minutes ago, Muninn77 said:

Considering that he seems to think you could burn through three before the match is half over normally, I'm inclined to agree with you.

Valk, I'm out. You've been dancing around actually addressing my points, mostly in ways that betray a lack of understanding about the game. Unless you are using a DCP every time you get a single fire, RU BBs should never run out of DCP. And the problem with SAP on every ship is that unless you completely gut the bonus to damage and pen to the point it's almost the same as HE, it's still a huge DPM increase to already high DPM ships.

Your points were addressed AND refuted. You seem to think repeating the same points qualifies of proof, as if proof by assertion is anything more than a fallacy.

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1 hour ago, So_lt_Goes said:

     Dunno about anything other than the USN, but in WW2 the US Navy had a standard general-purpose round called SP Common that was in fact a SAP-type round designed to pen up to 1/2 it's caliber but with a bigger burst charge than AP.

huh, dont think ive heard of that, learn something new everyday eh?

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2 hours ago, Varknyn12 said:

 It doesn't remove the counter play. In fact, it builds upon it. If you light a BB and he pops a limited charge DCP, and then when the action time is finished you light another. Well he either can let the fire burn completely or chose to burn through what is already most of his charges. If the charges are limited, making the BB burn through the charges *IS* counterplay.

You're missing the point.

Most BB players don't use that many DCP charges, because it's generally accepted that you let single (and maybe double) fires burn out.

Anyone who plays a Russian BB will tell you that your choice isn't a choice, unless the player is an idiot.

This is what happens: you light a fire, maybe two, and the BB lets it burn for 35-60 seconds, depending on build. Then he heals the damage. (Alternatively, you can pop a heal as soon as the fire starts, and watch your HP remain roughly constant) 

No use of DCP.

You only have a few games in RU BBs, but tell me, how many times have you run out of DCP in your OR, Sinop, or Soyuz?

There's a reason RU BBs are a meme for "Russian Bias", it's because their "weaknesses" are only that on paper, not in practice.

But yes, please do give us RU BB-style DCP. BB players wouldn't use them all up, but they would be more readily available than they are now. I can't see any BB player being disappointed if that happened.

Edited by Skpstr
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