Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Raven2303

2 Forgotten Japanese DDs

44 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

194
[RANGR]
Members
305 posts
3,968 battles

Hatsuharu and Shyratsuyu, both forgotten by the developers... They are basically downgrades of their torpedo tech tree counterparts. Their stealth torpedo gimmick was removed a long time ago so they have only disadvantages compared to Fubuki and Akatzuki. They both have the same 7.5 second gun reload. Hatsuharu is basically Fubuki but with one less torpedo launcher, fair sine its a gun line right? But they have the same reload and amount of guns. Shyratsuyu has 2x4 torpedo launchers and 5 guns, all have 7.5 sec reload. Akatsuki has 6 guns and 3x3 torpedo launchers. I think it would be fair to give both Hatsuharu and Shyratsuyu a slight reload buff, lowering it to 6.5 or even 6.8 seconds, be it something to keep up with the powercreep of other DDs. Thoughts?

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,410
[WOLFG]
Members
28,903 posts
8,155 battles
3 minutes ago, Raven2303 said:

Shyratsuyu has 2x4 torpedo launchers and 5 guns, all have 7.5 sec reload. Akatsuki has 6 guns and 3x3 torpedo launchers. 

Shirayatsu has 5.9km concealment, Akatsuki 6.4km.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
194
[RANGR]
Members
305 posts
3,968 battles
2 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Shirayatsu has 5.9km concealment, Akatsuki 6.4km.

I haven't researched and bought Shiratsuyu yet, 0.5km detection can be big for sneaky DDs, but as the gunboat line, shouldn't it be opposite? I can see why she has that detection, as she is under equipped to defend herself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,410
[WOLFG]
Members
28,903 posts
8,155 battles
56 minutes ago, Raven2303 said:

I haven't researched and bought Shiratsuyu yet, 0.5km detection can be big for sneaky DDs, but as the gunboat line, shouldn't it be opposite? I can see why she has that detection, as she is under equipped to defend herself.

Yeah, I would expect Akatsuki to have the 5 guns and the better concealment.

Edited by Skpstr
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
194
[RANGR]
Members
305 posts
3,968 battles

it seems they forgot about them when they added the rest of the line in to fit the gunboat idea, plus removing the stealth torps only hindered them more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
508
Members
1,410 posts
10,532 battles

There is no gun line, it's completely made up. WG wanted the line branch to start at T6 for some reason and the only way to do that was to move some unrelated ships over. Hatsuharu being a treaty destroyer was the odd man out so made some sense and it also opened the door to Shiratsuyu which was a highly requested class at the time so everything worked out. But that does not mean you should in any way, shape, or form try to connect Hatsuharu and Shiratsuyu to what comes after them. It's a line of convenience, not of actual logical progression.

Having said that I do think a gun buff for them and Fubuki would be nice.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
13,990 posts
5,814 battles
14 minutes ago, Raven2303 said:

Hatsuharu and Shyratsuyu, both forgotten by the developers... They are basically downgrades of their torpedo tech tree counterparts. Their stealth torpedo gimmick was removed a long time ago so they have only disadvantages compared to Fubuki and Akatzuki. They both have the same 7.5 second gun reload. Hatsuharu is basically Fubuki but with one less torpedo launcher, fair sine its a gun line right? But they have the same reload and amount of guns. Shyratsuyu has 2x4 torpedo launchers and 5 guns, all have 7.5 sec reload. Akatsuki has 6 guns and 3x3 torpedo launchers. I think it would be fair to give both Hatsuharu and Shyratsuyu a slight reload buff, lowering it to 6.5 or even 6.8 seconds, be it something to keep up with the powercreep of other DDs. Thoughts?

I would like to point out that on both NA and EU, Hatsuharu beats Fubuki statistically in average win rate, average damage, average xp, average frags, kill/death ratio, and has consistently done so since the IJN DD split.

So clearly Hatsuharu is not as disadvantaged compared to Fubuki as some think.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
194
[RANGR]
Members
305 posts
3,968 battles
2 minutes ago, Rouxi said:

There is no gun line, it's completely made up. WG wanted the line branch to start at T6 for some reason and the only way to do that was to move some unrelated ships over. Hatsuharu being a treaty destroyer was the odd man out so made some sense and it also opened the door to Shiratsuyu which was a highly requested class at the time so everything worked out. But that does not mean you should in any way, shape, or form try to connect Hatsuharu and Shiratsuyu to what comes after them. It's a line of convenience, not of actual logical progression.

Having said that I do think a gun buff for them and Fubuki would be nice.

Maybe some time in the future they will switch out both for fitting DDs and do something similar to what they are doing with Kirov in the Russian cruiser update.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
508
Members
1,410 posts
10,532 battles
1 minute ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

I would like to point out that on both NA and EU, Hatsuharu beats Fubuki statistically in average win rate, average damage, average xp, average frags, kill/death ratio, and has consistently done so since the IJN DD split.

So clearly Hatsuharu is not as disadvantaged compared to Fubuki as some think.

I think that partly has to do with the horrendously bad stock grind on Fubuki.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
194
[RANGR]
Members
305 posts
3,968 battles
2 minutes ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

I would like to point out that on both NA and EU, Hatsuharu beats Fubuki statistically in average win rate, average damage, average xp, average frags, kill/death ratio, and has consistently done so since the IJN DD split.

So clearly Hatsuharu is not as disadvantaged as some think.

How many games does both have?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
194
[RANGR]
Members
305 posts
3,968 battles
2 minutes ago, Rouxi said:

I think that partly has to do with the horrendously bad stock grind on Fubuki.

Yes 6km torpedoes is disgustingly short, to say its shorter then Fubuki's detection, not to mention the 9km gun range too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
13,990 posts
5,814 battles
Just now, Raven2303 said:

How many games does both have?

Both are in the millions, since they are both pretty old ships. I just checked their stats for Asia and RU as well and the story is the same: Hatsuharu beats Fubuki in every stat.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Rouxi said:

I think that partly has to do with the horrendously bad stock grind on Fubuki.

 

5 minutes ago, Raven2303 said:

Yes 6km torpedoes is disgustingly short, to say its shorter then Fubuki's detection, not to mention the 9km gun range too.

I would like to mention that Hatsuharu has the same stock torps. Plus they go through a similar upgrade path, both needing to upgrade the hull before getting their 10km torps. The grind to fully upgrade both is the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
194
[RANGR]
Members
305 posts
3,968 battles

Doesn't beat the fact that both are incredibly power crept and need slight buffs, not calling for a total huge buff, just something to make them alright to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
194
[RANGR]
Members
305 posts
3,968 battles
5 minutes ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

Both are in the millions, since they are both pretty old ships. I just checked their stats for Asia and RU as well and the story is the same: Hatsuharu beats Fubuki in every stat.

 

 

 

I would like to mention that Hatsuharu has the same stock torps. Plus they go through a similar upgrade path, both needing to upgrade the hull before getting their 10km torps. The grind to fully upgrade both is the same.

By this information, should Fubuki receive a buff instead? Or both buffs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
13,990 posts
5,814 battles
Just now, Raven2303 said:

Doesn't beat the fact that both are incredibly power crept and need slight buffs, not calling for a total huge buff, just something to make them alright to play.

Oh I don't disagree on that. I'm just nitpicking your assertion that Fubuki is better than Hatsuharu, when the evidence suggests that it is clearly the other way round.:Smile-_tongue:

 

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
194
[RANGR]
Members
305 posts
3,968 battles
1 minute ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

Oh I don't disagree on that. I'm just nitpicking your assertion that Fubuki is better than Hatsuharu, when the evidence suggests that it is clearly the other way round.:Smile-_tongue:

 

Well I sure blew through Fubuki once I got the 10km torps, they hit like a truck at her tier, also had a much better experience with her than Hatsuharu.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
13,990 posts
5,814 battles
13 minutes ago, Raven2303 said:

By this information, should Fubuki receive a buff instead? Or both buffs?

The issue I feel is that the meta has moved on and now favours do-it-all hybrid DDs which can both play torpedo boat, and also rapid fire HE spammer, and possibly has hydro or radar or some other gimmick.

For a start I think the IJN torp boats need increased fire rate, turret traverse, to make it more hybrid-ish. Also faster torps, and lower torp detection range across the board. TRB should be made standard for all IJN DDs from tier 5 upwards in a separate slot from smoke.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
194
[RANGR]
Members
305 posts
3,968 battles
2 minutes ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

The issue I feel is that the meta has moved on and now favours do-it-all hybrid DDs which can both play torpedo boat, and also rapid fire HE spammer, and possibly has hydro or radar or some other gimmick.

For a start I think the IJN torp boats need increased fire rate, turret traverse, faster torps, and lower torp detection range across the board. And I think TRB should be made standard for all IJN DDs from tier 5 upwards.

Interesting idea, having the TRB increase at each tier upwards, would they have to switch out for smoke though?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
378
[-VT-]
Members
708 posts
32,771 battles
1 hour ago, Raven2303 said:

Hatsuharu and Shyratsuyu, both forgotten by the developers... They are basically downgrades of their torpedo tech tree counterparts. Their stealth torpedo gimmick was removed a long time ago so they have only disadvantages compared to Fubuki and Akatzuki. They both have the same 7.5 second gun reload. Hatsuharu is basically Fubuki but with one less torpedo launcher, fair sine its a gun line right? But they have the same reload and amount of guns. Shyratsuyu has 2x4 torpedo launchers and 5 guns, all have 7.5 sec reload. Akatsuki has 6 guns and 3x3 torpedo launchers. I think it would be fair to give both Hatsuharu and Shyratsuyu a slight reload buff, lowering it to 6.5 or even 6.8 seconds, be it something to keep up with the powercreep of other DDs. Thoughts?

No, they were not forgotten.

No, they are not inferior.  

Both are fine ships.  I am particularly fond of the Hatsu since I ranked out with her in Season Two.  She also served well in another season of Ranked.

Yes, there is power creep along all ship lines.  Kind of sad to see ships of different eras placed in the same tier (Fletcher (launch 1942) and Friesland (launch 1956) come to mind) but I guess WG has to do something to keep the funds rolling in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
194
[RANGR]
Members
305 posts
3,968 battles
5 minutes ago, Sabene said:

No, they were not forgotten.

No, they are not inferior.  

Both are fine ships.  I am particularly fond of the Hatsu since I ranked out with her in Season Two.  She also served well in another season of Ranked.

Yes, there is power creep along all ship lines.  Kind of sad to see ships of different eras placed in the same tier (Fletcher (launch 1942) and Friesland (launch 1956) come to mind) but I guess WG has to do something to keep the funds rolling in.

The only other DD I can see them being not inferior too is Russian or maybe British
They are completely forgotten, haven't seen anyone significant talk about them in a very long time.

Edited by Raven2303

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
286
[SACH]
[SACH]
Members
989 posts

You all can thank WG for the great japanese DD nerf several years ago. They killed off all DDs from the great Minekazie all the way up to the Shima.

Minekazie was by far the most powerful torpedo boat at teir 5 she was even more powerful than the elite premium that was the Kamikaze R. But everyone complained and moaned about torpedoes that snuk up on you out of no where and hence the great nerf.

Hanging them out to dry and letting WG introduce other DD lines.

Oh well what can you do.:Smile_facepalm:

V.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
539
[POP]
Members
1,573 posts
22,537 battles

Hatsu is still a wicked ship at its tier. Torps have a fairly fast reload, ship has good detection, decent AA and great maneuverability, the guns recently were buffed.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
837
[BOTES]
Members
2,192 posts
8,049 battles
9 hours ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

I would like to point out that on both NA and EU, Hatsuharu beats Fubuki statistically in average win rate, average damage, average xp, average frags, kill/death ratio, and has consistently done so since the IJN DD split.

So clearly Hatsuharu is not as disadvantaged compared to Fubuki as some think.

Don't know how many more years this meme will be repeated, most likely into eternity, but ship performance is meaningless if you cannot control for who plays the ship. More people have played T6 Fubuki than T6 Hatsuharu. It is inherently going to perform worse on average, even if it is a better ship.

To really see the difference in ship capabilities, I strongly recommend you use the performance filter options on wows stats. Filter by the different percentages. This way, you can see how all the ships performed at the 95th, 90th, 75th and 50th percentiles (50th percentile is also known as the median). Fun fact; when accounting for player skill, the Hatsuharu has comparable performance to the Fubuki. Hatsuharu only averages 3k more damage and the most significant differential, win rate, is most likely attributable to the two things Hatsuharu does better; maneuverability and concealment. These are important factors for carrying in DDs when offense isn't an option. Both Hatsuharu and Fubuki are weak offensively, but Fubuki has .6 km less concealment, is 1.5 kts slower, has an extra 400 m turning circle, and has .4 sec longer rudder shift.

Another good way to compare is to look at a player who is good in both ships and ask them how they felt about each one. I am rather good with destroyers and I hated both of these ships. I experienced the real trashheap of a tech tree by mostly progressing through the old IJN DD tree (back when Mutsuki was at T6, Hatsuharu at T7, the good Fubuki at T8, and Kagerou at T9) and these ships are straight downgrades from what we used to have. I struggled with T6 Mutsuki primarily because of the stock grind (6km torps at T6 and had to face T8 with these) and because I was new. Back then, we had the 5 point captain skill system, so unless you had a 15 point commander, you didn't have CE. That made Mutsuki less stealthy than every other DD that had it. Imagine that with 6km torps; you couldn't even stealth torp with Mutsuki like this.

If I could play that ship with what I have today, it would be deadly at T6. It would outspot everything at the tier, have 10km torps with better torpedo concealment than the currently nerfed torps on Fubuki and Hatsuharu, and you would have better mobility and AA than both of them. It still wouldn't fight very well with its guns, but these ships can barely use their guns either.

I will admit that I would like to revisit Fubuki with the recent torpedo buff via addition of a speed module. An additional 5 kts will help reaction times substantially and will improve its capabilities. I expect Shinonome to outperform it regardless, but I'll test it out at some point.

Edited by awildseaking
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
13,990 posts
5,814 battles
6 hours ago, awildseaking said:

Don't know how many more years this meme will be repeated, most likely into eternity, but ship performance is meaningless if you cannot control for who plays the ship. More people have played T6 Fubuki than T6 Hatsuharu. It is inherently going to perform worse on average, even if it is a better ship.

To really see the difference in ship capabilities, I strongly recommend you use the performance filter options on wows stats. Filter by the different percentages. This way, you can see how all the ships performed at the 95th, 90th, 75th and 50th percentiles (50th percentile is also known as the median). Fun fact; when accounting for player skill, the Hatsuharu has comparable performance to the Fubuki. Hatsuharu only averages 3k more damage and the most significant differential, win rate, is most likely attributable to the two things Hatsuharu does better; maneuverability and concealment. These are important factors for carrying in DDs when offense isn't an option. Both Hatsuharu and Fubuki are weak offensively, but Fubuki has .6 km less concealment, is 1.5 kts slower, has an extra 400 m turning circle, and has .4 sec longer rudder shift.

Another good way to compare is to look at a player who is good in both ships and ask them how they felt about each one. I am rather good with destroyers and I hated both of these ships. I experienced the real trashheap of a tech tree by mostly progressing through the old IJN DD tree (back when Mutsuki was at T6, Hatsuharu at T7, the good Fubuki at T8, and Kagerou at T9) and these ships are straight downgrades from what we used to have. I struggled with T6 Mutsuki primarily because of the stock grind (6km torps at T6 and had to face T8 with these) and because I was new. Back then, we had the 5 point captain skill system, so unless you had a 15 point commander, you didn't have CE. That made Mutsuki less stealthy than every other DD that had it. Imagine that with 6km torps; you couldn't even stealth torp with Mutsuki like this.

If I could play that ship with what I have today, it would be deadly at T6. It would outspot everything at the tier, have 10km torps with better torpedo concealment than the currently nerfed torps on Fubuki and Hatsuharu, and you would have better mobility and AA than both of them. It still wouldn't fight very well with its guns, but these ships can barely use their guns either.

I will admit that I would like to revisit Fubuki with the recent torpedo buff via addition of a speed module. An additional 5 kts will help reaction times substantially and will improve its capabilities. I expect Shinonome to outperform it regardless, but I'll test it out at some point.

Both Hatsuharu and Fubuki have a large critical mass of millions of games played, across multiple servers, since the split years ago. We're not talking about tens or hundreds of thousands, but millions of games. At this point their stats aren't going to shift much, so imho they are likely representative of where they are and should be. At the very minimum they prove that Hatsuharu being weaker than Fubuki is a myth.

Other than that, your post largely echoes my own viewpoint. Fubuki may have the extra launcher, but Hatsuharu is better at applying damage due to better stealth, speed, and maneuverability. It's been a long time, but I did go up the pre-split DD line as well, did play both post split, and remember finding Hatsuharu much more comfortable to use. Hatsu also got my only Solo Warrior, by valiantly running away and getting the timeout, but I digress.

Ultimately neither are strong in today's environment for tier 6, and imho all the IJN torpedo boats could use a revision.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,497
[RKLES]
Members
12,551 posts
14,267 battles
16 hours ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

I would like to point out that on both NA and EU, Hatsuharu beats Fubuki statistically in average win rate, average damage, average xp, average frags, kill/death ratio, and has consistently done so since the IJN DD split.

So clearly Hatsuharu is not as disadvantaged compared to Fubuki as some think.

Fubuki is fine as is because of her stealth, good quantity of torpedoes that reload rather quickly as well as hit hard enough, decent mobility, and while the guns are slow traversing, rate of fire is not as rapid as some guns, and the range is not overly long they do hit hard and when used the entire map can’t see you unless a nearby enemy spots you.

The trouble some players will run into is thinking the IJN Torp Boat DD line are gunboats. Instead they are meant to be stealthy Ninja that sneak in do heavy torpedo damage and are off to the next target which can make locating your DD troublesome for the enemy. The guns can give a good account of themselves if you come across a damage enemy DD or if you get cornered and have to use them, but certainly not so that no you charge in guns a blazing with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×