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HorrorRoach

Nevsky looks fun, but...

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Like I said in a previous thread a few months ago, I think the IFHE change was a textbook problem/reaction/solution, i.e. Metamorphic profit model. Wipe the slate clean, now you can introduce ships that have advantages relative to the new meta. They probably planned it a while ago.

This is the exact type of ship they planned to capitalize on after IFHE changes. Pens cruisers because its 180mm, while keeping the fire chance against BB's... 180mm pens exactly 30mm. This thread has nothing to do with this ship being OP or not, it may well not be after changes.

It's just funny how fast they came out with a ship to "bridge the gap" so to speak. I'm betting this sucker will be expensive. Looks fun. Even if they add a 1.5s to the reload, remove a heal and lower the HP by 10,000, I'd still want it. Kinda like a T10 Donskoi or something. This ship has a "spirit" already and it's calling to me.

EJ

 

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She does looks good but personnally I still prefer Petra over this.

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i play against a 07 last night in him Nemsky. die very fast to my smolensk

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3 hours ago, HorrorRoach said:

This is the exact type of ship they planned to capitalize on after IFHE changes. Pens cruisers because its 180mm, while keeping the fire chance against BB's... 180mm pens exactly 30mm. This thread has nothing to do with this ship being OP or not, it may well not be after changes.

Except 152mm HE from the main battery of tier VIII-X CLs, her peers, also now has 30mm of penetration. The only ships below tier VIII that mount Soviet 180mm guns are Kirov and Molotov, and they play more like extremely squishy heavy cruisers  at their tiers.

In fact, Soviet 180mm guns at high tiers got nerfed in the last patch. With the change in pen bonus from IFHE and the fact that IFHE no longer rounds up, Dmitri Donskoi (as well as the WIP Alexander Nevsky) can only pen 37mm of plating with IFHE. Thay can no longer pen the 38mm plating of American battleships with HE. The HE DPM of these two ships pales in comparison to their CL peers (Donskoi has 12.5s base reload, for example). Their sole advantages in regards to HE performance was the increased penetration and ballistics/range, and they recently lost the former.

In regards to fire-starting ability:

Dmitri Donskoi (180mm): 12.5%

Seattle (152mm): 12%

Alexander Nevsky (180mm) (WIP): as of the last patch 13%

Worcester (152mm): 12%

So the difference in negligible, and this does not take into account the greater number of shells the 152s are putting out.

If you are going to complain about something, you can complain about the 1000m/s shell velocity, 19km range, or the AP penetration. The HE performance is nothing spectacular.

All the information on Alexander Nevsky comes from in-game, using the “All ships in tree” mod, and is of course a WIP.

Edit: Also, this ship is going to be the tech-tree tier X CL, researched from Dmitri Donskoi and replacing Moskva, so it will only cost you credits.

Edited by Nevermore135

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2 hours ago, HorrorRoach said:

Like I said in a previous thread a few months ago, I think the IFHE change was a textbook problem/reaction/solution, i.e. Metamorphic profit model. Wipe the slate clean, now you can introduce ships that have advantages relative to the new meta. They probably planned it a while ago.

This is the exact type of ship they planned to capitalize on after IFHE changes. Pens cruisers because its 180mm, while keeping the fire chance against BB's... 180mm pens exactly 30mm. This thread has nothing to do with this ship being OP or not, it may well not be after changes.

It's just funny how fast they came out with a ship to "bridge the gap" so to speak. I'm betting this sucker will be expensive. Looks fun. Even if they add a 1.5s to the reload, remove a heal and lower the HP by 10,000, I'd still want it. Kinda like a T10 Donskoi or something. This ship has a "spirit" already and it's calling to me.

EJ

 

Create a problem and sell the fix … 

Classic 

 

 

Edit: Works even better in politics :)

Edited by Commander_367

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57 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

Except 152mm HE from the main battery of tier VIII-X CLs, her peers, also now has 30mm of penetration. The only ships below tier VIII that mount Soviet 180mm guns are Kirov and Molotov, and they play more like extremely squishy heavy cruisers  at their tiers.

In fact, Soviet 180mm guns at high tiers got nerfed in the last patch. With the change in pen bonus from IFHE and the fact that IFHE no longer rounds up, Dmitri Donskoi (as well as the WIP Alexander Nevsky) can only pen 37mm of plating with IFHE. Thay can no longer pen the 38mm plating of American battleships with HE. The HE DPM of these two ships pales in comparison to their CL peers (Donskoi has 12.5s base reload, for example). Their sole advantages in regards to HE performance was the increased penetration and ballistics/range, and they recently lost the former.

In regards to fire-starting ability:

Dmitri Donskoi (180mm): 12.5%

Seattle (152mm): 12%

Alexander Nevsky (180mm) (WIP): as of the last patch 13%

Worchester (152mm): 12%

So the difference in negligible, and this does not take in to account the greater number of shells the 152s are putting out.

If you are going to complain about something, you can complain about the 1000m/s shell velocity, 19km range, or the AP penetration. The HE performance is nothing spectacular.

All the information on Alexander Nevsky comes from in-game, using the “All ships in tree” mod, and is of course a WIP.

Edit: Also, this ship is going to be the tech-tree tier X CL, researched from Dmitri Donskoi and replacing Moskva, so it will only cost you credits.

The way you phrase your entire response is odd because it leaves out the fact that the 180mm HE shells have superior alpha to the 152mm's, and the shell velocity is way better... Making them way more useful in real world situations. The firing rate of 152mm's is offset by crappy ballistics, it reduces the hitrate. US battle ship deck armor isn't even an issue here, the 180mm guns have better alpha, pen 30mm cruiser armor and a better hitrate because of decent accuracy and shell velocity. 

If you run the numbers, Nevky's HE packs a pretty decent wallop every 5 seconds because of that alpha. That thing is going to rival Italian cruisers in DD killing ability at close ranges.

Not sure if Nevsky being a techtree ship is a good thing, that means they can leave it OP for longer...Then nerf it after they've milked enough money out of everyone and are switching the meta to something else 3 months later.

EJ

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41 minutes ago, HorrorRoach said:

The way you phrase your entire response is odd because it leaves out the fact that the 180mm HE shells have superior alpha to the 152mm's, and the shell velocity is way better... Making them way more useful in real world situations. The firing rate of 152mm's is offset by crappy ballistics, it reduces the hitrate. US battle ship deck armor isn't even an issue here, the 180mm guns have better alpha, pen 30mm cruiser armor and a better hitrate because of decent accuracy and shell velocity. 

If you run the numbers, Nevky's HE packs a pretty decent wallop every 5 seconds because of that alpha. That thing is going to rival Italian cruisers in DD killing ability at close ranges.

Its DPM is roughly on par with the Hindenburg but with worse pen and fire starting (with IFHE).  Its stock DPM is almost identical to the Shchors of all things.  

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26 minutes ago, yashma said:

Its DPM is roughly on par with the Hindenburg but with worse pen and fire starting (with IFHE).  Its stock DPM is almost identical to the Shchors of all things.  

I've seen several post about how OP these new ships will be... but they all seem to "conveniently" leave out the fact that the nevsky only has 8 guns. I mean, there are literally t10 light cruisers that have twice as many guns as this thing...

 

Not to forget that its fast shell velocity also means it will be more difficult to shoot from behind islands and will have to be out in the open more.

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if theyre gonna make them strong, may as well let the T10 go all out, hey WG, give that [edited] some triple guns in place of those duals

Edited by tcbaker777

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24 minutes ago, JimmyTheRealPirate said:

I've seen several post about how OP these new ships will be... but they all seem to "conveniently" leave out the fact that the nevsky only has 8 guns. I mean, there are literally t10 light cruisers that have twice as many guns as this thing...

 

Not to forget that its fast shell velocity also means it will be more difficult to shoot from behind islands and will have to be out in the open more.

Aye...the coverage of these ships hasn't been the most objective.  Flambass raging that the Petropavlovsk is OP for citadling broadside targets at ranges under 4km is just laughable levels of clickbait (I refuse to believe he is otherwise  really that ignorant of the capabilities of existing Tier 10 CAs).....and the Nevsky doesn't look anywhere near as bad as people are making it out to be if you actually do the math and compare it to the capabilities of other Tier 10 cruisers.  

*The Nevsky is a bit of a weird boat as it's not quite CA and it's not quite CL, so it doesn't really have a direct analog.  In terms of ply style I think it has the most in common with the Hindenburg, but even then....its a radar cruiser while the Hindenburg isn't.

Edited by yashma

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2 hours ago, HorrorRoach said:

The way you phrase your entire response is odd because it leaves out the fact that the 180mm HE shells have superior alpha to the 152mm's, and the shell velocity is way better... Making them way more useful in real world situations. The firing rate of 152mm's is offset by crappy ballistics, it reduces the hitrate. US battle ship deck armor isn't even an issue here, the 180mm guns have better alpha, pen 30mm cruiser armor and a better hitrate because of decent accuracy and shell velocity. 

If you run the numbers, Nevky's HE packs a pretty decent wallop every 5 seconds because of that alpha. That thing is going to rival Italian cruisers in DD killing ability at close ranges.

Not sure if Nevsky being a techtree ship is a good thing, that means they can leave it OP for longer...Then nerf it after they've milked enough money out of everyone and are switching the meta to something else 3 months later.

EJ

The only thing your post talked about was how the penetration of 180mm was superior to 152mm - which it isn’t at that tier. Both weapons have similar fire chance and both require IFHE to reach the same penetration thresholds. Your entire argument was based on an assertion that is objectively false. Yes, Dmitri Donskoi’s (and AN’s) range and ballistics make her a dangerous threat to BBs, but you never mentioned that.

1 hour ago, yashma said:

Its DPM is roughly on par with the Hindenburg but with worse pen and fire starting (with IFHE).  Its stock DPM is almost identical to the Shchors of all things.  

^This.

The difference in alpha between AN’s HE and Worcester/Seattle is 2500 vs 2200 (which is in reality only 100 damage difference per shell since regular penetrations deal 1/3 the shell’s alpha).

AN, with a base reload of 6s, 8 guns, and 2500 alpha has a theoretical HE DPM of 200,000. Worcester with 12 barrels, 2200 alpha, and 4.6s reload, has a theoretical HE DPM of over 340,000. Seattle at tier IX is over 236,000; Dmitri Donskoi has 144,000. 

Even Chapayev at tier VIII, with Soviet 152mm guns with similar ballistics to the 180s, has an HE DPM of 198,000 and the same 13% fire chance. At tier X, Alexander Nevsky has 1% more HE DPM, the same fire chance, and the same HE penetration (152mm gets 1/5 vs 1/6, so 30mm base) as her tier VIII predecessor. Soviet 180mm HE really got shafted in the IFHE rework.

The ship has a lot of things going for it, but once again, the HE is nothing special and I don’t understand why you are focusing on it.

 

 

Edited by Nevermore135

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Well, it sorta is a bridge between CLs and CAs. Like the 152s, it can only pen 30mm without IFHE. Unlike 152s, it has zero problem citadeling other cruisers from max range, making it play much more like a heavy cruiser.

The russian heavy cruisers, on the other hand, are more like a bridge between CAs and BBs, sorta but not quite like the supercruisers. For me, this looks very very appealing as I love tanky ships, but really struggle dealing with Tier X BB rudders.

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LOL, Mainz... The light cruiser that doesn't need IFHE comes out right after IFHE rework goes live. Not a coincidence.

 

Quarter pen

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On 3/27/2020 at 12:22 AM, Nevermore135 said:

and the same HE penetration (152mm gets 1/5 vs 1/6, so 30mm base) as her tier VIII predecessor. Soviet 180mm HE really got shafted in the IFHE rework.

Many players seem so to be so fixated on the IFHE changes that they're missing the far bigger impacts of HE penetration ratio changes, and armor thickness changes.  

 

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