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Goliath vs Petropavlovsk, what are their strengths and weaknesses?

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Goliath is British Tier 10 tech tree CA. Petropavlovsk is Russian Tier 10 tech tree CA. Both are paper ships. Both are supposed to be fairly tanky in character. My understanding is that Goliath's strengths are her:

  • super heal
  • high-piercing AP
  • stealthy detection range

while her weaknesses are:

  • limited main gun range
  • the lack of a radar.

My understanding with Petropavlovsk is that her strengths are:

  • accurate AP at brawling range
  • high-piercing AP
  • stealthy detection range

while her weaknesses are:

  • poor maneuverability
  • ineffective HE

Overall both ships are similar in the sense that they can tank some limited damage as cruisers, and don't have to be played with a "scared cat" style like Shchors. However, Goliath is best played when kiting away, while Petropavlovsk can also bow tank.

Am I right? Let me know how you compare these two cruisers, and how you would recommend them to different players. Thanks in advance.

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well nobody can answer your question since the Russian cruiser is not out yet ....

 

for what is of the goliath her AP is not great at all , it has a decent amount of armor but not great either  and the low dpm is another weakness , the russian crusier will be 100% better than the brit

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I can't talk about Petropavlovsk's proper employment since she isn't out yet, but I have toyed with Goliath in PVE, and the RN CA protection scheme means she should not be in intermediate nor short ranged fighting.  The closer range she is, the more likely she is to get smashed.  It's already scary enough testing this boat out in PVE and getting shot at by bot BBs at 15km, I would not want to test that against savvy BB players at that range.

 

Goliath, as with many of these RN CAs, has a very pronounced Citadel.  If she fights at ranges where players can more reliably aim for and strike that, she's going down.  She has a 40mm deck, which can possibly save her at range from shells impacting the deck armor since not even 460mm AP can Overmatch that.  Her upper belt is 30mm, Overmatched by 406mm or larger guns.  The lower armor belt fluctuates from 165mm to 203mm.  The bow and stern extremities are 25mm.

ANqM4Yh.jpg

6BMiaEd.jpg

QGLAy3e.jpg

There is no bow tanking with a 25mm bow in Tier X.  They'll smash right through and hit the forward citadel bulkhead.

I would not even dare rely on angling.

- If the shells don't land at waterline and instead hit the upper belt armor, the 30mm armor can be Overmatched despite angling and get into that upper step of the Citadel.

- The shells can still land at the bow and smash the forward citadel bulkhead.

 

Another thing with her protection is she has a 51mm plate that extends past the central armor belt and into the bow.

53zpUcG.jpg

It reminded me of Hindenburg who has something similar.  You could try to angle and defeat even BB AP shells with that thick bow plate section.  However, I was still getting rekt despite that.  Don't angle sharply enough, the AP goes through the bow and still smashes the forward citadel bulkhead.  If the angle isn't sharp enough, it would not autobounce the shells.  Another major thing is that 51mm plate isn't big enough.  I compared it to Hindenburg's plate which is thinner at only 40mm.  But the plate is much longer and more forgiving in a brawl, knife fight, and protects the citadel better if the German Cruiser player is any decent.  This is a major reason why Hindenburg is so troublesome to quickly put down in a knife fight even for a BB.

sUGEgsi.jpg

 

I experimented in PVE trying to play safe at range or trying to be sly in a knife fight, using angling, etc.  She's way too big, clumsy for a short ranged fight and she's extraordinarily easy to smash in there.

 

Goliath is 100% about her HE.  The AP shells have very poor penetration despite the large gun size.  She's in the realm of 203mm armed CAs, Zao's 203m AP is actually better than Goliath's 234mm AP.

qMzvovr.jpg

 

Meanwhile, Goliath's 234mm HE have 59mm HE Pen by default and a nice 24% Fire Chance for her 12 gun salvos.  Only the 60mm deck armor of Sovetsky Soyuz and Kremlin, and Armored CV Flight Decks can resist her HE shells.  Once one sees the AP performance and compared the HE values, it's very clear what WG wants you to use more of with Goliath.

 

So anyways... Goliath is an upper middle or long range combatant.  Her AP is weak, her HE won't care at any range and she'll burn anything.  At range she can use her 40mm deck armor to save her against most things, even Yamato-class' 460mm AP as it can't be Overmatched.  She just should not be fighting at 15km or less or she's real prone to savage damage.  Even with testing against bot BBs at 16km+ ranges, I was confident in the 40mm deck armor saving me but I was always worried that BB dispersion would scatter some shells to land on the 25mm extremities and hit my Citadel from there, i.e. the good 'ol "I got Citadeled through the a**!"

All you Mogami players know what that feeling is like.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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On 3/26/2020 at 7:11 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:
Spoiler

I can't talk about Petropavlovsk's proper employment since she isn't out yet, but I have toyed with Goliath in PVE, and the RN CA protection scheme means she should not be in intermediate nor short ranged fighting.  The closer range she is, the more likely she is to get smashed.  It's already scary enough testing this boat out in PVE and getting shot at by bot BBs at 15km, I would not want to test that against savvy BB players at that range.

 

Goliath, as with many of these RN CAs, has a very pronounced Citadel.  If she fights at ranges where players can more reliably aim for and strike that, she's going down.  She has a 40mm deck, which can possibly save her at range from shells impacting the deck armor since not even 460mm AP can Overmatch that.  Her upper belt is 30mm, Overmatched by 406mm or larger guns.  The lower armor belt fluctuates from 165mm to 203mm.  The bow and stern extremities are 25mm.

ANqM4Yh.jpg

6BMiaEd.jpg

QGLAy3e.jpg

There is no bow tanking with a 25mm bow in Tier X.  They'll smash right through and hit the forward citadel bulkhead.

I would not even dare rely on angling.

- If the shells don't land at waterline and instead hit the upper belt armor, the 30mm armor can be Overmatched despite angling and get into that upper step of the Citadel.

- The shells can still land at the bow and smash the forward citadel bulkhead.

 

Another thing with her protection is she has a 51mm plate that extends past the central armor belt and into the bow.

53zpUcG.jpg

It reminded me of Hindenburg who has something similar.  You could try to angle and defeat even BB AP shells with that thick bow plate section.  However, I was still getting rekt despite that.  Don't angle sharply enough, the AP goes through the bow and still smashes the forward citadel bulkhead.  If the angle isn't sharp enough, it would not autobounce the shells.  Another major thing is that 51mm plate isn't big enough.  I compared it to Hindenburg's plate which is thinner at only 40mm.  But the plate is much longer and more forgiving in a brawl, knife fight, and protects the citadel better if the German Cruiser player is any decent.  This is a major reason why Hindenburg is so troublesome to quickly put down in a knife fight even for a BB.

sUGEgsi.jpg

 

I experimented in PVE trying to play safe at range or trying to be sly in a knife fight, using angling, etc.  She's way too big, clumsy for a short ranged fight and she's extraordinarily easy to smash in there.

 

Goliath is 100% about her HE.  The AP shells have very poor penetration despite the large gun size.  She's in the realm of 203mm armed CAs, Zao's 203m AP is actually better than Goliath's 234mm AP.

qMzvovr.jpg

 

Meanwhile, Goliath's 234mm HE have 59mm HE Pen by default and a nice 24% Fire Chance for her 12 gun salvos.  Only the 60mm deck armor of Sovetsky Soyuz and Kremlin, and Armored CV Flight Decks can resist her HE shells.  Once one sees the AP performance and compared the HE values, it's very clear what WG wants you to use more of with Goliath.

 

So anyways... Goliath is an upper middle or long range combatant.  Her AP is weak, her HE won't care at any range and she'll burn anything.  At range she can use her 40mm deck armor to save her against most things, even Yamato-class' 460mm AP as it can't be Overmatched.  She just should not be fighting at 15km or less or she's real prone to savage damage.  Even with testing against bot BBs at 16km+ ranges while, I was confident in the 40mm deck armor saving me but I was always worried that BB dispersion would scatter some shells to land on the 25mm extremities and hit my Citadel from there, i.e. the good 'ol "I got Citadeled through the a**!"

All you Mogami players know what that feeling is like.

 

Nice post! Would you recommend the range module or reload on Goliath? I found the extra range tempting, but her shells are too floaty past 17km.

I also need to mention that I tested Goliath's armor, kitting away from a friend's Stalingrad. I managed to keep all 4 guns on target and burned him down. He managed to hit my citadel once, though. Had to use one change of superheal - certainly a strong point of this ship.

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Really wish they'd fix those annoying armor flaws on Goliath. A tanky cruiser shouldn't be easily citadeled from any angle. Regular pens, sure, but full on back to port blaps are no bueno unless you're dealing with a smoke cruiser or long range harasser. 

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3 hours ago, brpas said:

Nice post! Would you recommend the range module or reload on Goliath? I found the extra range tempting, but her shells are too floaty past 17km.

I also need to mention that I tested Goliath's armor, kitting away from a friend's Stalingrad. I managed to keep all 4 guns on target and burned him down. He managed to hit my citadel once, though. Had to use one change of superheal - certainly a strong point of this ship.

Even for playing in Co-op, I stuck to the range upgrade.  MBM3 is nice, but even in the confines of Co-op, when a couple bot BBs are looking for the smallest HP ship to nail, which as a Cruiser it will be YOU and not the BBs, it got scary at 15-16km.  She has to push out further back.  If you like to fight at closer ranges in a Cruiser, consider Hindenburg who is purpose built for that kind of fight.  Goliath isn't.

 

Cruisers aren't the concern for Goliath.  One on one, she'll be a handful against most Cruisers.  Stalingrad's guns can't overmatch her, for example, and if she's playing to protect her Citadel, Stalingrad can't use the Killer AP to put her down.  If a 25mm armor section such as Goliath's bow and stern require 358mm or larger AP to be Overmatched, so Stalingrad's 305mm AP isn't a concern unless she catches your sides.  Meanwhile Goliath can angle away and burn Stalingrad to the ground with her super high pen 234mm HE and high fire chances.

 

Again, the problem isn't against Cruisers unless they catch your sides.  It's Battleships, and BBs are highly popular across the tiers.  In Tier X, everything BB Overmatches the 25mm bow.  A number of the 406mm+ BBs will Overmatch the 30mm upper belt armor / upper hull sides and access your Citadel that way.  If you fight at ever closer ranges against all these 406mm+ armed BBs where their shells can start reliably hitting your hull sides instead of the 40mm deck armor, that's how Goliath gets punished.

 

I must stress again, even in the confines of Co-op, being in ever closer ranges was a risky venture, especially when the BBs are around still.  I would NOT want to tempt close ranged play with Goliath in PVP.  Sure, a bunch of the BB players out there aren't that good, but it's the ones that actually know how to play and aim correctly that should scare you.

 

At long range I'd focus on hitting the big targets, which is still feasible.  The shells are floaty but BBs are large targets.  Same with Super Cruiser targets.  Some of the Cruisers are also campers and killing their mobility, so they're viable targets also.  It's the Cruiser targets that maneuver and are good at range that will be annoying to engage, i.e. Henri IV, Zao, etc.

 

I liked Goliath.  To the point I even bought her Perma-Camo.  But I found her strengths and weaknesses and learned to work around them, and still liked the ship.  It's just I had to play to the strengths.  The moment I activated my Hindenburg play habits for short ranged fighting, that's when disaster loomed nearby for Goliath.  Your margin for error gets smaller the closer you are in a BB dominated field.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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16 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Even for playing in Co-op, I stuck to the range upgrade.  MBM3 is nice, but even in the confines of Co-op, when a couple bot BBs are looking for the smallest HP ship to nail, which as a Cruiser it will be YOU and not the BBs, it got scary at 15-16km.  She has to push out further back.  If you like to fight at closer ranges in a Cruiser, consider Hindenburg who is purpose built for that kind of fight.  Goliath isn't.

 

Cruisers aren't the concern for Goliath.  One on one, she'll be a handful against most Cruisers.  Stalingrad's guns can't overmatch her, for example, and if she's playing to protect her Citadel, Stalingrad can't use the Killer AP to put her down.  If a 25mm armor section such as Goliath's bow and stern require 358mm or larger AP to be Overmatched, so Stalingrad's 305mm AP isn't a concern unless she catches your sides.  Meanwhile Goliath can angle away and burn Stalingrad to the ground with her super high pen 234mm HE and high fire chances.

 

Again, the problem isn't against Cruisers unless they catch your sides.  It's Battleships, and BBs are highly popular across the tiers.  In Tier X, everything BB Overmatches the 25mm bow.  A number of the 406mm+ BBs will Overmatch the 30mm upper belt armor / upper hull sides and access your Citadel that way.  If you fight at ever closer ranges against all these 406mm+ armed BBs where their shells can start reliably hitting your hull sides instead of the 40mm deck armor, that's how Goliath gets punished.

 

I must stress again, even in the confines of Co-op, being in ever closer ranges was a risky venture, especially when the BBs are around still.  I would NOT want to tempt close ranged play with Goliath in PVP.  Sure, a bunch of the BB players out there aren't that good, but it's the ones that actually know how to play and aim correctly that should scare you.

 

At long range I'd focus on hitting the big targets, which is still feasible.  The shells are floaty but BBs are large targets.  Same with Super Cruiser targets.  Some of the Cruisers are also campers and killing their mobility, so they're viable targets also.  It's the Cruiser targets that maneuver and are good at range that will be annoying to engage, i.e. Henri IV, Zao, etc.

 

I liked Goliath.  To the point I even bought her Perma-Camo.  But I found her strengths and weaknesses and learned to work around them, and still liked the ship.  It's just I had to play to the strengths.  The moment I activated my Hindenburg play habits for short ranged fighting, that's when disaster loomed nearby for Goliath.  Your margin for error gets smaller the closer you are in a BB dominated field.

Yeah, I also enjoy the ship. But, the "powerful armor" is lackluster. I agree that BBs are its main prey, and the other way around is also true: it's a damage pinata to them.

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Petro and Nevsky will be many orders of magnitude better than Goliath or Venezia. Go Russian or go home, says WG.

Edited by Vector03

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16 hours ago, Vector03 said:

Petro and Nevsky will be many orders of magnitude better than Goliath or Venezia. Go Russian or go home, says WG.

Nevsky is the more dangerous one, Petro looks mediocre despite some of the clowns around here whining about RU Bias.

Petro has:

Worse armor than Moskva, will get Penned more in the bow with the smaller icebreaker.

About 10k less HP than Moskva.

Slower reload than Moskva.

Has very strong AP at the cost of very weak HE.

 

You people here are crying about how powerful Petro's 220mm AP is.  That's nothing.  We regularly fight against, bounce 381mm, 406mm, 419mm, 420mm AP, so 220mm isn't sh*t.  Just don't be a moronic clown and give broadside to Petro at 4km like some of those idiots on YouTube videos have been doing.  Do that, protect your Citadel, and those 220mm AP shells are meaningless, and you force Petro to use her sh*t HE shells, coupled with a reload that's slower than Moskva's.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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5 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Nevsky is the more dangerous one, Petro looks mediocre despite some of the clowns around here whining about RU Bias.

Petro has:

Worse armor than Moskva, will get Penned more in the bow with the smaller icebreaker.

About 10k less HP than Moskva.

Slower reload than Moskva.

Has very strong AP at the cost of very weak HE.

 

You people here are crying about how powerful Petro's 220mm AP is.  That's nothing.  We regularly fight against, bounce 381mm, 406mm, 419mm, 420mm AP, so 220mm isn't sh*t.  Just don't be a moronic clown and give broadside to Petro at 4km like some of those idiots on YouTube videos have been doing.  Do that, protect your Citadel, and those 220mm AP shells are meaningless, and you force Petro to use her sh*t HE shells, coupled with a reload that's slower than Moskva's.

High velocity, super high penetration 220mm AP with increased pen angles doesn't care about your armor or angle. The Petro will shred everything.

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On 3/26/2020 at 8:21 AM, _Marines said:

Goliath is British Tier 10 tech tree CA. Petropavlovsk is Russian Tier 10 tech tree CA. Both are paper ships. Both are supposed to be fairly tanky in character. My understanding is that Goliath's strengths are her:

  • super heal
  • high-piercing AP
  • stealthy detection range

while her weaknesses are:

  • limited main gun range
  • the lack of a radar.

My understanding with Petropavlovsk is that her strengths are:

  • accurate AP at brawling range
  • high-piercing AP
  • stealthy detection range

while her weaknesses are:

  • poor maneuverability
  • ineffective HE

Overall both ships are similar in the sense that they can tank some limited damage as cruisers, and don't have to be played with a "scared cat" style like Shchors. However, Goliath is best played when kiting away, while Petropavlovsk can also bow tank.

Am I right? Let me know how you compare these two cruisers, and how you would recommend them to different players. Thanks in advance.

I think you are missing a principle element of Goliath, her HE. British CA AP is not very good. Both are bow tankers. Goliath is not "best played when kiting away". It's armour profile encoruages a bow on engagement, and is very strong in these narrow profiles (despite being quite fat). The flat stern  image.png.804cdf2b494bb8ced17dfbd1dc875a19.png is quite dangerous, while the broad decks are quite vulnerable to hits.

image.thumb.png.492d0b13b4e3846d7cca01569c05fdcb.png

as for limited main gun range, 19.5 km image.png.4397b0db885cfb206642db72e2f3e52e.pngwith image.png.6a67fbf19c8ee76f8d86b2c607d8601f.png 

Petropavlosk is still in supertesting, all her features are subject to change. It is too early to know what she will be like.

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On 4/2/2020 at 4:29 AM, Vector03 said:

High velocity, super high penetration 220mm AP with increased pen angles doesn't care about your armor or angle. The Petro will shred everything.

You clearly have no idea how Overmatch works.

I got Cruisers that already capably bounce Alaska's special pen angled 305mm AP shells, so 220mm isn't sh*t.

I got Cruisers that bounce 420mm AP shells, so some sh*tty little 220mm shell isn't doing to do anything better.

 

Edit:  The only way that 220mm AP is going to crush me is if I'm a moron like in some of those YouTube Petro videos that are there sitting broadside at 5km in front of the d*mn thing.  Do that with most every BB, Cruiser, you'll get smashed.

 

Edit again:  Of the two upcoming Tier X RU Cruisers, it should be "Light" Cruiser Alexander Nevsky that should worry people.  That thing has the range, shell flight characteristics, and shells to be effective against a wide variety of targets regardless of whether a target is bow on, angled, or whatever, at various ranges.  She fires much faster, 6 seconds base reload compared to 13 of Petro.  Her HE will be solid and RU 180mm AP while not as crazy high in Pen, is still quite strong.  Petropavlovsk, once a target is prepared to receive and bounce her 220mm AP, has nothing.  Her reload sucks and her HE shells suck.  Alexander Nevsky just won't care.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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