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Skyfaller

Could secondaries mechanics be re-vamped?

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WG, 

Secondaries were an important part of warship armament and it is rather silly to see it presented in this game as either a largely pointless set of guns or one that is effective only in ships that have hard coded super-advantages to those guns. 

Why not revamp them to be functional and still allow ships to be able to specialize in them and nations whose flavor is secondaries have their perk advantage on them without having such enormous disparity?

 

For example, 

- Increase range on secondary guns to match the base range of that gun's caliber when it is hosted on cruisers or destroyers. For example, Yamato would have 15km range with the 155s and 11.3km range with the 127mms.  

- All secondaries, regardless of tier, have a 70% base accuracy rating. This is the primary reason we have such a huge disparity right now.. they dont hit squat unless FULLY spec'd and thats a waste. Have all secondaries start with a decent hit rate. 

- Rate of fire on secondaries is reduced compared to their main gun counterparts on cruisers or DDs. Aka if a 127mm on a DD has an ROF of 2 seconds then on a BB or cruiser secondary it is 4 seconds. This is what balances out the improved range and accuracy listed above. Lower ROF. It also matches historical performance given secondaries didnt have the dedicated reload mechanisms main gun turrets had. 

- Nations with secondary armament perks (german, french) receive their advantage in three forms: A) Their ships secondaries aim for the superstructure not the lower center of ship as other nation ships do, B) They get +25% range advantage and C) their secondaries have 100% more hitpoints making them much harder to be knocked out. This is aside from Germany's innate advantage of the hull armor design and French high speed advantages to close into range. 

 

 

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May as well have AI play your ships while your at it.....

We already have brain dead set and forget AA that gives rewards for just loading into a battle even if you don't use the sector system it still does damage to aircraft and rewards you for it..... At least with manual secondaries they are off if you don't select a target.

Don't want anymore systems that give rewards simply because you loaded into a battle and pushed the W key a few times........

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I dont see them not really touching them comes down to Destroyers. If you played DD you would know what I am talking about  when it comes down to how much you have to deal with already when playing the class.

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44 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

WG, 

Secondaries were an important part of warship armament and it is rather silly to see it presented in this game as either a largely pointless set of guns or one that is effective only in ships that have hard coded super-advantages to those guns. 

Why not revamp them to be functional and still allow ships to be able to specialize in them and nations whose flavor is secondaries have their perk advantage on them without having such enormous disparity?

 

For example, 

- Increase range on secondary guns to match the base range of that gun's caliber when it is hosted on cruisers or destroyers. For example, Yamato would have 15km range with the 155s and 11.3km range with the 127mms.  

- All secondaries, regardless of tier, have a 70% base accuracy rating. This is the primary reason we have such a huge disparity right now.. they dont hit squat unless FULLY spec'd and thats a waste. Have all secondaries start with a decent hit rate. 

- Rate of fire on secondaries is reduced compared to their main gun counterparts on cruisers or DDs. Aka if a 127mm on a DD has an ROF of 2 seconds then on a BB or cruiser secondary it is 4 seconds. This is what balances out the improved range and accuracy listed above. Lower ROF. It also matches historical performance given secondaries didnt have the dedicated reload mechanisms main gun turrets had. 

- Nations with secondary armament perks (german, french) receive their advantage in three forms: A) Their ships secondaries aim for the superstructure not the lower center of ship as other nation ships do, B) They get +25% range advantage and C) their secondaries have 100% more hitpoints making them much harder to be knocked out. This is aside from Germany's innate advantage of the hull armor design and French high speed advantages to close into range. 

 

 

1. That increase in sec range is too great. Some increase would be OK, but not this much.

2. A BIG no here.  Secondary accuracy should increase as the tier of the ship increases.

3+4. No real opinion on this one at the moment.

 

I don't like the Manual Sec skill as is.  I think that it should also give a "per tier" increase so that the increasing accuracy benefit is gradual, rather than the huge bump when you go from tier 6 to tier 7.

I generally agree that players have to make too much of an investment in upgrade modules and skills to create a good secondaries ship.  I wish that that investment was reduced so that you didn't have to give up so much to gain so little.

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27 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

- Increase range on secondary guns to match the base range of that gun's caliber when it is hosted on cruisers or destroyers. For example, Yamato would have 15km range with the 155s and 11.3km range with the 127mms.

The secondaries are fixed range, somewhat similar to the newer AA setup - so the 155's and 127's would have to share one or the other's range - while I don't doubt that with work (which when it comes to coding something they seem resistant to do so) they could do it - much like with the joke that is the reworked AA they'd want to keep it 'simple' - so it would still be one range for all guns anyway. Also, as far as base ranges go - even I think that's just a tad extreme. Not to mention for various reasons (different models, placement, etc) the same gun just cause it's on 2 different ships doesn't necessarily mean same range. Case in point USN CL with 152 mm guns namely at lower tiers vs BB's with low mounted 152 mm casemate's. Plus the 'max range' of secondaries in game is really more akin to 'effective range' - same with the old AA range increases - more about the guns being able to reliably hit further out due to electronics or crew training. 

That said - I will agree that I do feel they should maybe have slightly higher base ranges particularly at low tiers, and that there should be a bit more consistency in ranges.

45 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

- All secondaries, regardless of tier, have a 70% base accuracy rating. This is the primary reason we have such a huge disparity right now.. they dont hit squat unless FULLY spec'd and thats a waste. Have all secondaries start with a decent hit rate.

Some guns do need to be a bit more accurate base line - I do think that 70% is a bit high - especially as baseline for ships with 6 inch and larger guns. Like maybe 50-60% for the 76-139 mm guns, 40-50% for 140-203 mm. But across all tiers. The real big one is actually the ManSec skill - it needs to be one flat bonus for all tiers if it's going to remain. That or we give all ships base accuracy to 75% of what a tier 8+ ship would have if they took the skill and remove it to free up 4 points elsewhere.

51 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

- Rate of fire on secondaries is reduced compared to their main gun counterparts on cruisers or DDs. Aka if a 127mm on a DD has an ROF of 2 seconds then on a BB or cruiser secondary it is 4 seconds. This is what balances out the improved range and accuracy listed above. Lower ROF. It also matches historical performance given secondaries didnt have the dedicated reload mechanisms main gun turrets had. 

Most of the secondary guns in game are actually close to if not out right the RoF they actually had, so we really don't need to muck with RoF at all. 

53 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

- Nations with secondary armament perks (german, french) receive their advantage in three forms: A) Their ships secondaries aim for the superstructure not the lower center of ship as other nation ships do, B) They get +25% range advantage and C) their secondaries have 100% more hitpoints making them much harder to be knocked out. This is aside from Germany's innate advantage of the hull armor design and French high speed advantages to close into range. 

I'm not sure A is even possible, and even if it was - is actually completely unnecessary. France isn't REALLY a secondary build line, doesn't quite have the performance built in save maybe vs DD's, and that's not really enough to qualify still with how it is. If the idea is to really make it a secondary line than it should either A: have HE pen like Germany does or B: have it's 100 mm guns adjusted akin to IJN 100 mm secondaries just were. Germany meanwhile after the recent changes the 15 cm guns can ignore the entirety of North Carolina's outer protection. I forget the pen on the 105 mm guns but I believe it's 25 mm which if you took IFHE (easier if mansec wasn't near mandatory) would autopen fore/aft on angled BB's and most any cruiser or DD's best outer protection hat isn't exposed citadel.

B is I think unnecessary as generally secondary BB's have lager guns as is, and 25% is a bit much. Depending how the ranges of non true secondary ships shake out 10-15% would be more reasonable if we even add one.

C however I 100% back. 

 

I play German BB's, a lot, only RTS CV's have had higher played numbers. And I'm also the madman that will brawl in literally any ship. Secondaries do need a tad more range, especially low tier where brawling is more frequent, as well as better innate accuracy, but really they don't NEED much else other than individual tweaks (like possibly French secondary pen).

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21 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Secondary accuracy should increase as the tier of the ship increases.

Question then is what's the top/bottom? Do we put tier 10 at 80% and tier 3 at 40% and have it go up 5% every tier? What if bottom at tier 3 is 50 and the cap at 10 is 70 base line - is it really worth bothering over 2.25% increase per tier instead of giving them all say 60%  - with the understanding there are module potentials for higher tier ship lower tiers save Ark Beta wouldn't have. Why should a higher tier ship have better accuracy? Just because it's higher tier? Because it should have better weapons and fire control? Many ships in lower tiers were upgraded to newer such things over time and frankly the ships in game at lower tier should have some of those upgrades anyway. As to tier me personally - not a fan of 'well it's higher tier so we make it more accurate just because'

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Sub_Octavian confirmed that they want to rework the secondaries but he also said it was near the bottom of the to do list so seeing how long they take to fix the priority stuff... I wouldn't expect any changes to secondaries as a hole in at least 3 years... 

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3 hours ago, Skyfaller said:

WG, 

Secondaries were an important part of warship armament and it is rather silly to see it presented in this game as either a largely pointless set of guns or one that is effective only in ships that have hard coded super-advantages to those guns. 

Why not revamp them to be functional and still allow ships to be able to specialize in them and nations whose flavor is secondaries have their perk advantage on them without having such enormous disparity?

 

For example, 

- Increase range on secondary guns to match the base range of that gun's caliber when it is hosted on cruisers or destroyers. For example, Yamato would have 15km range with the 155s and 11.3km range with the 127mms.  

- All secondaries, regardless of tier, have a 70% base accuracy rating. This is the primary reason we have such a huge disparity right now.. they dont hit squat unless FULLY spec'd and thats a waste. Have all secondaries start with a decent hit rate. 

- Rate of fire on secondaries is reduced compared to their main gun counterparts on cruisers or DDs. Aka if a 127mm on a DD has an ROF of 2 seconds then on a BB or cruiser secondary it is 4 seconds. This is what balances out the improved range and accuracy listed above. Lower ROF. It also matches historical performance given secondaries didnt have the dedicated reload mechanisms main gun turrets had. 

- Nations with secondary armament perks (german, french) receive their advantage in three forms: A) Their ships secondaries aim for the superstructure not the lower center of ship as other nation ships do, B) They get +25% range advantage and C) their secondaries have 100% more hitpoints making them much harder to be knocked out. This is aside from Germany's innate advantage of the hull armor design and French high speed advantages to close into range. 

 

 

Sure and all torpedoes ranges and speed will be increased by 100% and 50% and damage will reflect what actually happened in battle meaning 1-2 torps and your precious BB is on drifting down to Davy Jones' locker.

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4 hours ago, X__QC__X said:

May as well have AI play your ships while your at it.....

We already have brain dead set and forget AA that gives rewards for just loading into a battle even if you don't use the sector system it still does damage to aircraft and rewards you for it..... At least with manual secondaries they are off if you don't select a target.

Don't want anymore systems that give rewards simply because you loaded into a battle and pushed the W key a few times........

???

The 2ndary system is already braindead forget & already gives rewards just for loading into battle...manual 2ndaries are a commander skill (a 4 point 1 that very few ships actually take...even a lot of 2ndary specced ships don't bather w/manual 2ndaries because they need to select a target instead of having the braindead auto fire just because you hit the W key a few times.

Odd rant as CVs are the most immune to 2ndary fire unless they seriously derped or team folded.

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