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Crooked_Tooth

IFHE on French BB secondary build

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I apologize if this has already been covered elsewhere, but I can't seem to find the answer.  With the current IFHE rework, can someone tell me the implication/benefit of adding IFHE on the Alsace and Republique with secondary builds?

Thanks

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3 minutes ago, Crooked_Tooth said:

I apologize if this has already been covered elsewhere, but I can't seem to find the answer.  With the current IFHE rework, can someone tell me the implication/benefit of adding IFHE on the Alsace and Republique with secondary builds?

Thanks

Basically dead. The Alsace needed IFHE for the fast firing 100MM to cross the 19mm threshold and then the 152MM guns did not get any penetration buffs that the cruisers whom use that caliber did. IFHE will destroy that build.

WG hates French ships. The 152 secondary guns should have received the penetration buffs as well in my opinion.

 

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7 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Biggest secondary gun on Republique and Alsace is 152mm, with HE pen with IFHE of 31mm, right?

Nope they boned ships with 152MM secondaries in the changes and left them with low penetration 25mm. Makes no sense and I view this as a bug.

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17 minutes ago, Crooked_Tooth said:

I apologize if this has already been covered elsewhere, but I can't seem to find the answer.  With the current IFHE rework, can someone tell me the implication/benefit of adding IFHE on the Alsace and Republique with secondary builds?

Thanks

Do you have manual secondaries and AFT and BFT? If so, then maybe, if you like it. It is not common and or suggested though. The skill points can be used better elsewhere. Your upgrades are kind of dictated to you also if you do a secondary build. How is your battle awareness? Manual secondaries don't open up on their own and you really need manual to get the accuracy benefits for a secondary build to really be worth all of the skill points and upgrades it takes to do so. In a scenario that is a bit of a different story, Hermes was great for a secondary build.

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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12 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Biggest secondary gun on Republique and Alsace is 152mm, with HE pen with IFHE of 31mm, right?

 

5 minutes ago, Ban_CV_Complainers said:

Nope they boned ships with 152MM secondaries in the changes and left them with low penetration 25mm. Makes no sense and I view this as a bug.

152/6*1.25 = 31.7, so 31mm of penetration with IFHE.

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*IFHE Secondary French Battleship*

Laughs in German Secondaries

But to be serious. If you want to go IFHE secondaries, German Battleships aren't that bad of an option. 

Take GK for example. Her 128mm secondaries have 32mm of penetration, which already puts FRA, RN, and IJN BBs in danger. Her 150mm secondaries boast 38mm of pen, which puts USN BBs in danger, and this was already dangerous to begin with. Taking IFHE is what makes it absolutely deadly, however. It increases the penetration of the 128mm guns to 40mm, which automatically places all non-German / Soviet BBs in danger of getting their rear ends whupped by DD guns.

Point is, German secondaries are far better than French ones in terms of raw DPM output, and taking IFHE really does no favors to you with those guns. If you want to go secondary-spec, choose a German BB or an American Premium BB ( Massa, Georgia, Ohio )

:SerB:

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I think we did find a bug here. It says it should have applied to main battery or secondary armament but it didnt for secondary guns on the french BBs atleast.

 

Anyone know how to get WeeGee's attention on this?

 

image.png.10fe9fc7779e47d2553570f9d2f10eee.png

 

WG_SPB_WoWs_Infographic_table_Supertest_

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3 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Do you have manual secondaries and AFT and BFT? If so, then maybe, if you like it. It is not common and or suggested though. The skill points can be used better elsewhere. Your upgrades are kind of dictated to you also if you do a secondary build. How is your battle awareness? Manual secondaries don't open up on their own and you really need manual to get the accuracy benefits for a secondary build to really be worth all of the skill points and upgrades it takes to do so. In a scenario that is a bit of a different story, Hermes was great for a secondary build.

Yes I currently have manual secondaries, AFT, and BFT on my Alsace.  I also have all the secondary enhancing upgrades.  I know it's not ideal, but I have a lot of fun with this configuration.  Was considering getting IHFE with my next captain points, but don't know if it's worth it.

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5 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

 

152/6*1.25 = 31.7, so 31mm of penetration with IFHE.

The chart is quoting without IFHE 152mm secondaries should have 30mm of pen. Its treating them as if they are tiers I-VII by giving them 25mm of pen. Check my post above.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Ban_CV_Complainers said:

I think we did find a bug here. It says it should have applied to main battery or secondary armament but it didnt for secondary guns on the french BBs atleast.

 

Anyone know how to get WeeGee's attention on this?

 

image.png.10fe9fc7779e47d2553570f9d2f10eee.png

 

WG_SPB_WoWs_Infographic_table_Supertest_

I got nothing here. I suppose we could assume that this rule doesn't apply to any secondaries except German and American secondary guns. That being said, it says on the chart that it applies to secondary battery guns. So either this is a bug, or WG is really starting to hate on the Frenchies for ripping the Smolensk, Stalingrad and Kremlin a new one a hundred times over ( I would guess both. I rushed a Stalingrad AND a Smolensk in a Kleber,  both of the poor sods got nuked, I came out with two devstrikes and 3 /4 of my HP )

:SerB:

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2 minutes ago, Crooked_Tooth said:

Yes I currently have manual secondaries, AFT, and BFT on my Alsace.  I also have all the secondary enhancing upgrades.  I know it's not ideal, but I have a lot of fun with this configuration.  Was considering getting IHFE with my next captain points, but don't know if it's worth it.

I hope for fires more with secondaries and I do believe secondaries target center ship so where you really would want to penetrate is not going to be the main target by the secondaries. I could be wrong on that but I believe I read it in a mouse post or some where.

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12 minutes ago, Ban_CV_Complainers said:

Anyone know how to get WeeGee's attention on this?

Ya do this, @Hapa_Fodder

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11 minutes ago, Ban_CV_Complainers said:

The chart is quoting without IFHE 152mm secondaries should have 30mm of pen. Its treating them as if they are tiers I-VII by giving them 25mm of pen. Check my post above.

 

 

This is a mistake in that version of the chart (I believe it is from the dev blog?). The chart embedded in the news article for the most recent update that goes over the penetration changes specifically notes the 1/5 pen only applies to tier VIII-X cruisers.

Edited by Nevermore135

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2 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

This is a mistake in that version of the chart (I believe it is from the dev blog?). The chart embedded in the news article for the most recent update specifically notes the 1/5 pen only applies to tier VIII-X cruisers.

You may be right The column still says main and secondary battery though so its a little confusing. Here is directly from the update page. dang.

 

 

image.thumb.png.11d64a3101fc6031ee04c29acf8fbb11.png

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36 minutes ago, Ban_CV_Complainers said:

Nope they boned ships with 152MM secondaries in the changes and left them with low penetration 25mm. Makes no sense and I view this as a bug.

More like anything not called Chapayev, Cleveland, Seattle or Worcester with a 152 mm gun got boned. 25 mm is the right number - and the same one that should apply to those 4 ships (and the IJN DD's with 100 mm main batteries). I shouldn't be able to eat away at an NC with those 4 or the DD's like the scarabs from 'The Mummy' with Brendan Fraiser.

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42 minutes ago, Ban_CV_Complainers said:

You may be right The column still says main and secondary battery though so its a little confusing. Here is directly from the update page. dang.

 

 

image.thumb.png.11d64a3101fc6031ee04c29acf8fbb11.png

Yeah, the “secondary” label is there because German 150mm/128mm on BBs and cruisers and all Japanese 100mm guns have the same pen regardless of armament type. There are no tier VIII-X cruisers with 152-155mm secondaries, so the table is technically correct.

The only guns that got “real” adjustments to HE penetration are tier VIII-X cruiser 152-155mm, and the Japanese 100mm (both DD mains and cruiser/battleship secondaries). The other changes are just +1mm increases due to the change in the base HE pen rule.

31 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

More like anything not called Chapayev, Cleveland, Seattle or Worcester with a 152 mm gun got boned. 25 mm is the right number - and the same one that should apply to those 4 ships (and the IJN DD's with 100 mm main batteries). I shouldn't be able to eat away at an NC with those 4 or the DD's like the scarabs from 'The Mummy' with Brendan Fraiser.

I definitely agree that WG should have taken this chance to “nerf” the Japanese 100mm guns, at least on the DDs, by changing nothing. Under the new rules, the guns would have gotten 25mm base pen (enough to pen most cruisers at tier VIII+) and dropped to 31mm of pen with IFHE (enough to pen every cruiser, but not 32mm plating on BBs). I’ve always though it was ridiculous that those small guns can melt BBs the way they do.

Edited by Nevermore135

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3 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

I definitely agree that WG should have taken this chance to “nerf” the Japanese 100mm guns, at least on the DDs, by changing nothing. Under the new rules, the guns would have gotten 25mm pen base (enough to pen most cruisers at tier VIII+) and down to 31mm with IFHE (enough to pen every cruiser, but not 32mm plating on BBs). I’ve always though it was ridiculous that those small guns can melt BBs they way they do.

Here's the thing - I understand the basics of why they did it. Although they have botched it a bit on the CV's in the rework, IJN has always been the 'anti-BB' ships. In this case, unlike the torp line using mostly their guns, but still having torps that were solid. And if things were balanced RIGHT - they wouldn't be a problem. But of course this Wargaming so they only do A=B therefore C. Yes, each shell only does 396 damage if it hits unsaturated areas. The problem is 396 damage, at more than 200 RPM, when you can't block it. As well as being a drastic overcompensation for what they did to IJN torps. If they hadn't nerfed the spotting ranges on the torps, other than Shima which yes needed a nerf but not quite as hard as it got, the guns could have been far less a primary and the ship balanced around a solid torp setup - despite 1 tube having a reload booster compensating well, meaning they could have instead maybe used the 15 RPM number (that crewman said was a bit more typical to achieve) shifting them to a somewhat unique hybrid between torpedo and gunship and likely solving half the issues. As well as maybe a little less alpha damage.

That - and the fact that seriously either BB's just need survivability added back (changes to repair party/DCP and dropping fire damage from 18% to 15%) or to just make IFHE like SAP with a reduced fire chance, which is what SAP should be anyway though maybe a bit more toward AP round in how much it pens.

Keeping their pen at 25 mm base - so 1/4 pen like Germany, meaning if you invest in IFHE you get a barebones 32 mm just enough to cross the threshold - I'd tolerate that. Buffing them to 37 mm of pen with IFHE is going too far though.

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1 hour ago, Crooked_Tooth said:

I apologize if this has already been covered elsewhere, but I can't seem to find the answer.  With the current IFHE rework, can someone tell me the implication/benefit of adding IFHE on the Alsace and Republique with secondary builds?

Thanks

Easy one is Republique.  She doesn't need it.  You don't want it anywhere near her.  First and foremost her Secondaries are based around her nice 127mm guns.

1.  They have 21mm HE Pen, which is sufficient in Penetrating the 19mm hulls of High Tier DDs and BB Superstructure in her MM bracket.

2.  Her 127mm secondaries have a very nice 9% fire chance, you don't want IFHE to ruin that.

 

Alsace OTOH is a more difficult choice.  The FR 100mm secondaries, which many High Tier FR BBs feature on Richelieu-class, Alsace, and even Jean Bart, aren't like the IJN 100mm guns.  They don't have the stupidly insane HE Penetration buff of the Japanese equivalent.  The FR 100mm secondary has a mere default HE Pen of 17mm.  This means these guns cannot even HE Pen the 19mm hulls of High Tier DDs nor the Superstructure of High Tier BBs.  If you're doing Secondary Spec Alsace, do you like the idea of DDs tanking and shrugging off your 100mm shells?  Or High Tier BBs ignoring your shells because they can't even pen 19mm of armor?  That's what's going to happen if a Secondary Spec Alsace doesn't take IFHE.  Sure, you can rely on Fires, but Fires are RNG.  You can get hundreds and hundreds of hits and get very few fires and lots of non-pens to top it off.

 

But taking IFHE is a super expensive venture for Secondaries, always has, even before the IFHE / Armor update.  The saving grace for Alsace is that despite IFHE nuking her Secondaries' Fire chances, the 100mm guns that form the bulk of your Secondary Gunfire, will have 21mm HE Pen and will carve almost all DDs not named Khabarovsk (50mm hull plating lulz) and High Tier BB Superstructure.  IFHE Secondary Builds leave next to nothing for the rest of the ship build.

 

Typically in my various Secondary Spec BBs, they don't require IFHE.  AFT and Manual Secondaries in tier 4, and I still manage to sneak in CE or FP.  My Alsace was originally like that, but with CE to make life easier and not be spotted from the moon.  I dropped CE to get IFHE.  The Secondaries became monsters, but not having Full Stealth made it difficult in controlling my engagements, and it was annoying to be the first a**hole spotted in a game and everyone lobs their first shells at me.  I kept IFHE Secondaries on Alsace, but bad concealment and less control of engagements is what I have to live with for that specific build.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Yeah no don't bother. IFHE secondaries on FR BB will allow you to pen cruisers but BB will just laugh at you (and because IFHE now halve your fire chance I'm not sure you want to use a skill that not only can't let you pen 32mm armour AND cut your fire chance in half.)

 

If you want to play a secondary BB, play German period. They no longer need IFHE to HE pen 32mm armour so you can save 4 points somewhere else.

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1 hour ago, AlcatrazNC said:

Yeah no don't bother. IFHE secondaries on FR BB will allow you to pen cruisers but BB will just laugh at you (and because IFHE now halve your fire chance I'm not sure you want to use a skill that not only can't let you pen 32mm armour AND cut your fire chance in half.)

 

If you want to play a secondary BB, play German period. They no longer need IFHE to HE pen 32mm armour so you can save 4 points somewhere else.

There is a lot of misinformation you're saying.

 

IFHE will let the FR 100mm Secondaries pen the 19mm superstructure of High Tier Battleships, as well as High Tier DD hulls.  Without IFHE, you can't even HE Pen the DDs there with those 100mm guns.

 

The core issue is that IFHE Secondary Builds are costly and leave no room for anything else in the captain build.  But that problem existed even before the IFHE / Armor changes.

 

As for this: "If you want to play a secondary BB, play German period. They no longer need IFHE to HE pen 32mm armour so you can save 4 points somewhere else."

That's incorrect.  Of the typical German 105mm or 128mm Secondary guns that make up the vast majority of their Secondary Batteries, only the 128mm ones have the 32mm HE Pen by default.  And right now, the only German BBs with those powerful 128mm guns that people can get right now are Tier VII Gneisenau and X GK.  Bismarck-class, FDG, PEF, Scharnhorst, Bayern, all the others don't have them.  It's a rare secondary weapon for even the Germans.

The 150mm guns are nice, but the problem with all those larger sized Secondary guns is that there's not many of them and they fire way too slowly.

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