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General_Lee_Miserable

New Euro DD's are Garbage

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Can someone tell me what this line is good for? This quite simply is least imaginative, most poorly thought out, and just plain most awful ship line release in the history of the game so far. 

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Nothing, They are DoA. Their attributes and competitive effectiveness is that of a DD 1 to 2 tiers lower than what they are assigned. For example, Most tier 8 DDs are MORE competitive and viable at facing Tier Xs than Friesland ever is.

10k torps? Yea, might be viable at high tiers **IF** TDS wasn't a thing AND **IF** Flooding nerf was reverted.

Guns? Well In-Practice DPM > On-Paper DPM.  Garbage ballistics, and a 2x2 setup that is split between the entire ship requiring exposing yourself to fire and torps. Not to mention poor turret traverse.

No smoke? Yep, and no other heightened survivability attribute to make up for it. No Smoke is okay for the likes of Kleber who can "Speed tank", has good HP values, AND special saturation mechanics.  These DDs are clunky , don't even have high base HP, and lose tons of speed on turns.


Even the Smaland is built as anti-DD and weak against everything else, yet isn't even the best anti-DD..DD.

Edited by Varknyn12
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Because you can't make them work doesn't mean they're garbage.

 

EU DD torps are strong at sniping other DD and cruisers because of their speed and the non existant torpedo protection of DD and cruisers. They have good AA (as far as DD AA goes), they have decent guns to defend themselve and okayish concealment. 

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7 minutes ago, Varknyn12 said:

Nothing, They are DoA. Their attributes and competitive effectiveness is that of a DD 1 to 2 tiers lower than what they are assigned. For example, Most tier 8 DDs are MORE competitive and viable at facing Tier Xs than Friesland ever is.

10k torps? Yea, might be viable at high tiers **IF** TDS wasn't a thing AND **IF** Flooding nerf was reverted.

Guns? Well In-Practice DPM > On-Paper DPM.  Garbage ballistics, and a 2x2 setup that is split between the entire ship requiring exposing yourself to fire and torps. Not to mention poor turret traverse.

No smoke? Yep, and no other heightened survivability attribute to make up for it. No Smoke is okay for the likes of Kleber who can "Speed tank", has good HP values, AND special saturation mechanics.  These DDs are clunky , don't even have high base HP, and lose tons of speed on turns.


Even the Smaland is built as anti-DD and weak against everything else, yet isn't even the best anti-DD..DD.

I happen to agree with a lot of your positions, but that's not the case on Friesland.  I'm not going to say it's the strongest DD, and it has a pretty high skill floor, but when played right it can perform quite well.  It's damage numbers are situational, but it can still do a lot for the team even if it doesn't do a lot of damage.  It is one of my favorite ships in the game....especially in CV games.

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1 minute ago, YouSatInGum said:

I happen to agree with a lot of your positions, but that's not the case on Friesland.  I'm not going to say it's the strongest DD, and it has a pretty high skill floor, but when played right it can perform quite well.  It's damage numbers are situational, but it can still do a lot for the team even if it doesn't do a lot of damage.  It is one of my favorite ships in the game....especially in CV games.

1.) The data shows it is anything but the strongest DD.

2.) AA effectiveness is not a tier 1, primary weight attribute. It is secondary or even tertiary at best. The Friesland has poor ballistics, the same horrid gun split setup, and lacking torpedoes. The primary (tier 1) attributes involve Survivability, Damage, and Killing other ships. Friesland, and the Pan-euro DD line sacrifice (1) or more primary attributes for heightened AA power. Take the Smaland, which sacrifices even MORE just for Radar...DD Radar... which is an extremely nerfed version of Radar. Hydro is better.  You cannot force a CV to attack you nor can you force them to loiter in your *increased AA effectiveness* nor can you guarantee a CV will be present in every match to make use of that heightened attribute NOR does shooting down planes directly effect match result like sinking another ship does.

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Pan-Euro DDs are excellent support DDs. They can provide great AA, for a DD, when accompanying another DD into battle. Using a friendly smoke allows them to "pew pew pew" while their very long range torps are great against other smoke camping ships.

On their own, they play differently than most other DDs but primarily they are torpedo based. Thier guns are excellent for supporting other ships if you're not the key target. This is also true of their AA when added to other ships AA.

They are more of team players than solo ninjas. Although you can do well on your own, they arent cappers per say.

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1 hour ago, General_Lee_Miserable said:

Can someone tell me what this line is good for? This quite simply is least imaginative, most poorly thought out, and just plain most awful ship line release in the history of the game so far. 

what are you talking about?  there pretty good; godly aa, fast torps, good concealment.

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The torps are substandard in every way, they don't do much damage and I think I have never caused a flood with one.

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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They wouldn't be bad if the torps did any damage at all, which they don't.  Two torps to sink a Fubuki?  

Edited by PrairiePlayer

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So far, I like them.  They aren't the best, but do you expect every line to power creep the game?

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1 hour ago, General_Lee_Miserable said:

Can someone tell me what this line is good for? ...

I stopped worrying about the latest new fad several lines back ... what many of these recent lines have been good for is going back and working on some of the older, more solid tech trees.  Even if there has been some power creep, I'm enjoying the journey.

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9 minutes ago, PrairiePlayer said:

They wouldn't be bad if the torps did any damage at all, which they don't.  Two torps to sink a Fubuki?  

 

Spoiler alert, even IJN torps cannot one shot a Fubuki in a specific situation.

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I really enjoy them. The torps are great as is the AA. You can use the torps to stack damage like you can with setting fires. They are also great for digging smoked up ships out as well as catching DDs by suprise. 

If you are having trouble getting torp damage with the Euro DDs than learn to fire torps. Lol

Edited by Tigermaus
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9 minutes ago, Heed_04 said:

So far, I like them.  They aren't the best, but do you expect every line to power creep the game?

That is quite fallacious.

The objective evidence is very clear. DDs are the lowest performing ship type and have been for years.

Releasing a DD line that is weak for its tier makes them completely garbage. it is like a double-whammy.

That is why it is important to balance the game based on the data and proper analytics of said data. Continuously keeping a ship type underpowered and nerfing any time one was made viable yet balanced (e.g. Khaba, e.g. Kleber, e.g. Groz, etc) is benighted at best. Nerfing a DoT that the data is showing as very weak (flooding) is benighted at best.

Edited by Varknyn12
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They are pure torp boats. You don’t want to be seen. Or pair up with another dd. AA is good. 
 

when I play alone I spot and let the big guns engage then they tend to forget the torps coming and the reload fast. I struggle to take out other dds at half health when I’m full.
 

Granted I did rack up 130k in Oland with a confederate, high caliber, and a kraken so they can be good 

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28 minutes ago, PrairiePlayer said:

They wouldn't be bad if the torps did any damage at all, which they don't.  Two torps to sink a Fubuki?  

They have some of the highest range and lowest reaction time in the game. You're trading damage for a much better hit percentage than something like a Shima with 12km. I'm looking forward to the line myself.

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I like them. I not a huge dmg dealer in many of my DDs as I tend to keep my guns quiet and concentrate on staying dark and spotting for the team. With no smoke these boats tend to make you play even more carefully as if spotted it’s difficult to knife fight or disengage. Smoke has become a lot less useful in higher tier games due to the regular 3-4 radar boats per team ... even some BBs now! Loads of hydro also so sitting still is high risk.

Ive had ok results with causing floods and the torps speed and range are great for area denial and catching boats off guard as they have very little time to react to my 90kts torps on the tier 9. With RPF it’s great

AA is ok for a DD so CVs are less of a worry if you get caught out. Like I said before the hardest thing I find is disengaging.

Looking forward to the Halland

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44 minutes ago, PrairiePlayer said:

They wouldn't be bad if the torps did any damage at all, which they don't.  Two torps to sink a Fubuki?  

So far, they've been averaging only 4200 pts per torp hit.  They've got above average AA, but that's about it, to be honest.  The turret traverse and the different load times for the single vs double gun turrets can be aggravating if you're used to the IJN DDs at even the same tiers.  IJN DDs may have worse concealment, but they have the same range torps which hit 5x harder, faster traverse turrets, and smoke.  I'm just not seeing any serious use for the Pan-Euro DDs yet, except for AA, and there are other ships in the same tiers with higher health and better guns that have the same AA.

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2 hours ago, General_Lee_Miserable said:

Can someone tell me what this line is good for? This quite simply is least imaginative, most poorly thought out, and just plain most awful ship line release in the history of the game so far. 

Oh, that is simple:  WHALE BAIT !!!    No more and no less.   Just another gimmick event.  And, sometime in the future, there will be an event for European ships......ta Da !.........we have them !

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2 hours ago, Varknyn12 said:

Nothing, They are DoA. Their attributes and competitive effectiveness is that of a DD 1 to 2 tiers lower than what they are assigned. For example, Most tier 8 DDs are MORE competitive and viable at facing Tier Xs than Friesland ever is.
 

Please continue to spread this info.

Please.

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i like them, watching those torps move like underwater missiles is one of the best things ever

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4 hours ago, General_Lee_Miserable said:

Can someone tell me what this line is good for?

Yes, they were specifically designed for missions and directives that require lots of torpedo hits.

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The Oster and Smaland are fun. Oland and Skane? MEAT. Tasty flesh to feast upon as they attempt to unlock their perma camo. Their guns can barely compete. As nearly any other DD just find them, and grind their helpless faces in the dirt. Like a tender love scene reenactment from "The Hills Have Eyes". I am looking forward to Holland, but the T7 and T8 are absolute garbage. 

 

Edited by MBRicochet

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20 minutes ago, MBRicochet said:

The Oster and Smaland are fun. Oland and Skane? MEAT. Tasty flesh to feast upon as they attempt to unlock their perma camo. Their guns can barely compete. As nearly any other DD just find them, and grind their helpless faces in the dirt. Like a tender love scene reenactment from "The Hills Have Eyes". I am looking forward to Holland, but the T7 and T8 are absolute garbage. 

 

I disagree. Visby and Vasteras are a little harder, but while I don't rack up big damage in the line, I was pulling in 1,500+ BXP games quite often with Skane and Oland, which is really good for me. They reward you for thinking. They are a lot of fun for me and actually make Random battles tolerable, which is the highest praise I could give a ship line.

Now, not everyone will like every line, that's for sure. Since many lines have sort of niche play styles to be effective, I'm glad that we have a bunch of lines that are different. I could not click with the French DDs. Yet I love the Swedish ones. Go figure.

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