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Skyfaller

With subs coming, its time to re-vamp surface ship torpedoes & DDs

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WG, 

 

The addition of subs will add a fourth source of torpedo 'spam' into the game. Subs, DDs, Cruisers and CVs (some BBs have torps but its largely inconsequential).  This will cause an environment no different than the old shimakaze torp spam of bygone days where ships would get hammered in mass out of nowhere with little means to avoid it. It's one thing when DDs are primary torp spam source but now that CVs and soon Subs are added into the mix, the amount of torpedoes in the water will reach a tipping point. 

So, how to avoid this?

I think the answer is quite simple. 

1- Make torpedoes be a limited ammo consumable on surface ships.  Carriers would carry huge multiple reloads so they are exempt from their planes having limited ammo..they already have timer-regen-limited planes anyway. 

2- Make having torpedo ammo left on the ship give a +50% chance of Torpedo detonation if torps are hit. A torpedo detonation would cause destruction of the torpedo tubes and damage equivalent to two or more BB shell citadel hits, WG decides. 

3- Implement a 'jettison torpedoes' function..just like we have 'reload' torpedoes key, add another one that will jettison torpedoes. This is so ships under gun or air attack can dump the torpedoes to rid themselves of detonation risk. Torps are jettisoned in a 2 second animation that must finish before another set of torps can be jettisoned ... so if your ship has 2 reloads of torps (3 salvos total) the player must jettison the other 2 salvos after the first one is tossed out. No need to wait for torps to reload of course. Its the crew chucking out their ammo. 

4- Surface ship torpedoes would need to be changed to justify their one or two salvo max per ship and the risk of carrying them. For this I think it would be best for WG to make the torpedoes be a closer match to their IRL counterparts. For example, detection range can be reduced (especially in IJN torps), the damage should increase about 50% and flood chance be 100% (its a torpedo..it punches a huge hole down the keel. Flood is always present). Finally, torpedo speed should be reduced to their IRL ranges... usually 35 to 60kn depending on torp type (IJN 20km torp was 45kn setting).

5- Carrier planes should only spot ships on minimap, not provide visual spotting for team. This is critical as it makes subs (on surface/periscope) and DDs become the primary spotters.  

 

This would allow WG to make DD lines and cruiser lines more distinct. For example the 'gun-centric' lines would carry just one torpedo salvo while the torpedo-centric lines carry a couple of salvos (no more than 3 ever). Same goes for cruisers. 

Gameplay wise this would change the dynamics of how DDs and cruisers and CVs interact with each other. A torpedo hit from a surface ship should be as serious as taking a citadel hit plus flooding but now the torp-carrying ships know they cant just spam torps as soon as they reload..they might just get one chance at hitting things with a torpedo. 

Now that torp carrying surface ships are very vulnerable to torpedo detonation AND the cv planes cannot provide visual spotting it makes the spotter role of the sub and dd more critical to be able to spot and hit torp-carrying ships before they can jettison their ordnance as an important means of reducing threat to the team. Gunboat DDs are now more critical than ever to stop torpedo line DDs. 

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Too much complicated mechanics for a post that basically screams "buff IJN torpedoboats"

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Buff by making them more prone to massive explosions? Right. 

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You know, for all those words, you really didn't think any of that through. Plus, it's blatantly clear you hate DDs, and torps in general. News flash, my friend, the torp hit rate on average is about 5%. If you're getting hit by torps 2 things happened: You either let it happen, or you faced a skilled player. Very, very few torp hits are actually random.

 

I have a suggestion: How about you learn the game and all its parts, and stop constantly begging for any class you don't like to be all but eliminated as a "threat" to you?

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1 minute ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

Too much complicated mechanics for a post that basically screams "buff IJN torpedoboats"

No, that whole wall of text was a cry to nerf all DDs, anything with torps but especially DDs, even more.

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20 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

1- Make torpedoes be a limited ammo consumable on surface ships.  

That will happen the same day that gunned ships can run out of ammo as well. 

Never gonna happen.

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With quote-unquote "submarines" coming to the game, it's time to reconsider playing above tier IV.

 

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1 minute ago, Ace_04 said:

That will happen the same day that gunned ships can run out of ammo as well. 

Never gonna happen.

Surface ships did carry quite a lot of ammo... on average more than even we get the chance of firing per game. It makes no sense to make a BB have ~100 rounds per gun barrel (avg ammo load of a WW2 BB) if we don't get the time to fire all that ;)

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Just now, Skyfaller said:

Surface ships did carry quite a lot of ammo... on average more than even we get the chance of firing per game. It makes no sense to make a BB have ~100 rounds per gun barrel (avg ammo load of a WW2 BB) if we don't get the time to fire all that ;)

Of course, but now you're trying to compare an arcade game to reality.  For the sake of enjoyment and game-balance, that's not feasible.

What would ships do at the point of running out of ammo and/or torpedoes?  Would be a pretty boring experience.

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It's an arcade game. It has some flaws.

The counter to subs is the depth charges. There are some already installed but not activated. Friesland has the hedgehog one.

It's all in the details. So the 😈 tells me.

We will be fine after an adjustment period. Maybe. LOL

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Is there a rule that you have to have played the game to post on the forums?

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3 minutes ago, mofton said:

Is there a rule that you have to have played the game to post on the forums?

10 battles on the account, IIRC.

 

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The easiest & best solution would be to abandon adding subs to the game.

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2 minutes ago, kgh52 said:

The easiest & best solution would be to abandon adding subs to the game.

^  This.

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Sorry, don't like the idea. Does't bring anything interesting to the game, besides torps as they are now are very meh... to ask further nerf is unnecesary

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1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

WG, 

 

The addition of subs will add a fourth source of torpedo 'spam' into the game. Subs, DDs, Cruisers and CVs (some BBs have torps but its largely inconsequential).  This will cause an environment no different than the old shimakaze torp spam of bygone days where ships would get hammered in mass out of nowhere with little means to avoid it. It's one thing when DDs are primary torp spam source but now that CVs and soon Subs are added into the mix, the amount of torpedoes in the water will reach a tipping point. 

So, how to avoid this?

I think the answer is quite simple. 

1- Make torpedoes be a limited ammo consumable on surface ships.  Carriers would carry huge multiple reloads so they are exempt from their planes having limited ammo..they already have timer-regen-limited planes anyway. 

2- Make having torpedo ammo left on the ship give a +50% chance of Torpedo detonation if torps are hit. A torpedo detonation would cause destruction of the torpedo tubes and damage equivalent to two or more BB shell citadel hits, WG decides. 

3- Implement a 'jettison torpedoes' function..just like we have 'reload' torpedoes key, add another one that will jettison torpedoes. This is so ships under gun or air attack can dump the torpedoes to rid themselves of detonation risk. Torps are jettisoned in a 2 second animation that must finish before another set of torps can be jettisoned ... so if your ship has 2 reloads of torps (3 salvos total) the player must jettison the other 2 salvos after the first one is tossed out. No need to wait for torps to reload of course. Its the crew chucking out their ammo. 

4- Surface ship torpedoes would need to be changed to justify their one or two salvo max per ship and the risk of carrying them. For this I think it would be best for WG to make the torpedoes be a closer match to their IRL counterparts. For example, detection range can be reduced (especially in IJN torps), the damage should increase about 50% and flood chance be 100% (its a torpedo..it punches a huge hole down the keel. Flood is always present). Finally, torpedo speed should be reduced to their IRL ranges... usually 35 to 60kn depending on torp type (IJN 20km torp was 45kn setting).

5- Carrier planes should only spot ships on minimap, not provide visual spotting for team. This is critical as it makes subs (on surface/periscope) and DDs become the primary spotters.  

 

This would allow WG to make DD lines and cruiser lines more distinct. For example the 'gun-centric' lines would carry just one torpedo salvo while the torpedo-centric lines carry a couple of salvos (no more than 3 ever). Same goes for cruisers. 

Gameplay wise this would change the dynamics of how DDs and cruisers and CVs interact with each other. A torpedo hit from a surface ship should be as serious as taking a citadel hit plus flooding but now the torp-carrying ships know they cant just spam torps as soon as they reload..they might just get one chance at hitting things with a torpedo. 

Now that torp carrying surface ships are very vulnerable to torpedo detonation AND the cv planes cannot provide visual spotting it makes the spotter role of the sub and dd more critical to be able to spot and hit torp-carrying ships before they can jettison their ordnance as an important means of reducing threat to the team. Gunboat DDs are now more critical than ever to stop torpedo line DDs. 

Lost me at 1.    Do a search in the forum on how many people want limited torpedoes.   You would neuter dds with limit torpedoes.  2k battles, not enough DD experience, or is zero.. can't tell without the stats being shown.

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It seems that OP doesn't like getting touched in the no-no spot by torpedoes.

Image result for no no spot meme

 

However, I'm sure he's perfectly fine with his BBs dev striking everything.

Edited by 1SneakyDevil
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So if you're playing a ship like, say, Fubuki, a tier 6 DD which is outgunned by tier 1 cruisers, what exactly are you supposed to do once you've shot your one salvo of torpedoes?  Just go afk and hope your team wins?  You wouldn't even want to hold them carefully for a perfect shot with that fun and engaging torpedo detonation mechanic you propose, so I guess the new playstyle for non-gunboat DD's will be to launch them as quickly as possible and then just leave the game.

Sounds like a lousy idea.

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2 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

It's an arcade game. It has some flaws.

The counter to subs is the depth charges. There are some already installed but not activated. Friesland has the hedgehog one.

It's all in the details. So the 😈 tells me.

We will be fine after an adjustment period. Maybe. LOL

Almost everything you said was masterful understatement … +1 for humor 

 

Edited for accuracy:   Wows is an overrated arcade game

                                       There is no counter to subs and probably never will be 

                                       WG doesn't have time to fix the things they break

                                       Good Luck :)

                                             

                                     

Bring on the Subs!

 

Edited by Commander_367
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Skyfaller, only the extremely gullible are going to get caught by your "we should buff DD(lists nerfs)" shtick. If you hate DD's, whatever, at least be honest about it. There are probably people you could convince but this tripe is not going to do it.

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I am primarily a DD driver... have 2 tier 10 dds and a T8 premium . I want these changes because I KNOW that when subs are out the nerfs WG will impose on DDs because of their torp capability suddenly becoming too much given subs will be laying the pain....will be as usual, over the top and ruin the class itself. 

Just like shimakaze drivers argued for a LONG time for WG to balance their own torp capability because it was absurdly OP and offered suggestions..and then WG went ahead and just castrated the ship and forgot about it for years after... now all DDs will be feeling the same nerf bat. 

You dont want the current meta to change... too bad, it will once subs are in. So , you want to sit there then and cry about it or you want to try and do something constructive before that happens and MAYBE (probably not) have WG listen this time?

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lol 0/10

The data is very clear that Torpedoes are underpowered, and have been for years. This would naturally result in a competent dev team buffing them, so consider yourself lucky they have been nerfed so many times by an incompetent one.

Normally I would argue that Submarines just like CVs are bad for the game but one can have hope that the will finally offer a valid BB counter, although the hope is likely naive as WG has kept BBs and CVs overpowered for years and nerfed anything that countered them.

Edited by Varknyn12
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Perhaps the next round of SS testing will actually yield some favorable results. If they realize the horrid mistakes they made with round 3 ( I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about ), then they will actually place some effort into trying and balancing Subs so that they don't just nuke whatever comes across their path.

Let's be real though, what was the last time WG didn't screw with an idea that was actually good?

Also, if we had limited reloads on TTs, like some people mentioned above, well....

Some DDs live and die by their torpedoes ( most of them, actually, save the RU DDs and ( to a lesser extent ), the IJN Gunship DDs and USN DDs ). Limiting them in that would take away their major source of damage output, and, more crucially, their potential effect on the outcome of a match

Word of advice from the Old Man: Start thinking with your head instead of your [edited]

:SerB:

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On 3/23/2020 at 10:53 AM, Skyfaller said:

Stuff

That would utterly break many DDs.  Your proposed fix of " A torpedo hit from a surface ship should be as serious as taking a citadel hit plus flooding" is how it already is.  Torpedo hits count as citadel hits.  A 50% increase in damage is all and well, but reducing the speeds as suggested will cause the hit probability to absolutely collapse simply through incidental maneuvering. 

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