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RYANMK48

A Question for DD and CV Mains

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I’m a very weak DD player but even I can love these new European DDs. They make it much easier for me to play a DD with a CV present. Admittedly it really only starts at Tier 8 but the Oland and Ostergotland are AA beasts. My best so far has been 47 aircraft shot down with the Oland against a Saipan but I can routinely shoot down 20+ aircraft in any given random game. My question is will this change the meta even a little bit for CV vs DD? I’ve got to think that CV skippers will tend to avoid these DDs and look for easier targets but I wanted to ask how the regular DD and CV players felt.

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It won't change much. You'll rightly punish bad CV players. But good CV players will still get plenty of strikes through. It's nice to see someone enjoy a new line though.

Edited by Toss_a_plus_1_to_your_CV
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Personally I'd be surprised if these new DDs didn't become the meta for random battles.   Being able to defend yourself against planes even a little bit opens the map back up.

Edited by Zenn3k
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6 minutes ago, Toss_a_plus_1_to_your_CV said:

I won't change much. You'll rightly punish bad CV players. But good CV players will still get plenty of strikes through. It's nice to see someone enjoy a new line though.

Thanks for the input, have you had many interactions with these EU DDs yet? I’d be interested in your thoughts on how to play them better

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3 minutes ago, Zenn3k said:

Personally I'd be surprised if these new DDs didn't become the meta for random battles.   Being able to defend yourself against planes even a little bit opens the map back up.

My only issue is the lack of smoke, which would make them OP so I understand why WG left that out. However, I can’t wait to division up with another DD that has smoke. I would see the combination as very powerful

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1 minute ago, RYANMK48 said:

 

Thanks for the input, have you had many interactions with these EU DDs yet? I’d be interested in your thoughts on how to play them better

Little bit, on my main EU account. When I have gone up against them in CV they've been easy pickings. But without wanting to sound arrogant as f*** I'm in the very top end of CV players. I have seen them punish bad CV players. And I think that is a good thing. Their biggest weakness is not being able to disengage easily. They are nasty little torp boats though. I'll wait till they are released fully before I sail them. My div and clan mates rate them so far. o7

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6 minutes ago, Toss_a_plus_1_to_your_CV said:

Little bit, on my main EU account. When I have gone up against them in CV they've been easy pickings. But without wanting to sound arrogant as f*** I'm in the very top end of CV players. I have seen them punish bad CV players. And I think that is a good thing. Their biggest weakness is not being able to disengage easily. They are nasty little torp boats though. I'll wait till they are released fully before I sail them. My div and clan mates rate them so far. o7

You are all too right about the disengagement. I’m learning the hard way to always make sure there is a rock somewhere nearby to dodge behind.  No matter how good my AA is when I get spotted I’m dead if there is more than one or two other enemy ships in range. I can wipe out two separate rocket strike groups and still get slaughtered by the enemy. 

On another note, I’ve seen some players advise DDs to steer straight at the incoming airplanes if I’m spotted because it makes me a harder target to hit. Is that true in your experience or do you have other advice?

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2 minutes ago, RYANMK48 said:

You are all too right about the disengagement. I’m learning the hard way to always make sure there is a rock somewhere nearby to dodge behind.  No matter how good my AA is when I get spotted I’m dead if there is more than one or two other enemy ships in range. I can wipe out two separate rocket strike groups and still get slaughtered by the enemy. 

On another note, I’ve seen some players advise DDs to steer straight at the incoming airplanes if I’m spotted because it makes me a harder target to hit. Is that true in your experience or do you have other advice?

Depends on the CV. If it's a RN CV that won't help as it's rocket concentration works against that play and it's slow planes give it time to aim easily. It will dupe the 1st attack sometimes however and buy time. But if the CV player is skilled enough they will get maybe 2 more strikes in. 

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Had a guy this last week try to focus my Friesland down with his planes.  Not only didn't it work, but my team did a good job of taking out his teammates while he kept bashing his head against my AA walls.  Most CV drivers learn to stay away.

 

I'm looking forward to the higher end of this line.

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Not a CV jedi but I do enjoy sailing them. Some ships are easier pickings than others. The Pan European DD's are pretty salty little AA boats. 

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I've only got a Lexington, but I'm that strange CV user that spends most of their time spotting rather than engaging... mostly since I get to face T9/10 ships with it.

 

That being said, they haven't been that much of an issue for me, as once they are spotted they tend to get shot apart by my team. I'm not dumb enough to waste time fighting the AA they can dump out.

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I haven't encountered enough to judge them, nor played any other than Visby and Friesland. But from what little I have they are closer in what all DD's should have in terms of AA capability, maybe a bit too high other than for ones meant to be more AA based DD's (so them and USN) but still, closer to what it should be. However it changes nothing. Sure, Friesland is more annoying to attack, played well and built right I'd actually say it's in the same league as Wor and Mino - that is borderline/out right OP AA. But it doesn't chance what happens when I hit it with 13 rockets, disabling it, setting fires and chunking 1/3 of it's HP. And then come around and duplicate the same pass.

Why you see me as one of the few people that plays CV's saying rockets need a damage nerf (though I also say we should get our mobility and aiming back as compensation beyond). Wargaming has made countless misguided changes to try and make DD vs CV better - all the changes have done is increased the skill gap, again, and drove more average CV players away, again, while players like me still bullseye them and can take them out with 1 group of attack planes, maybe 2 if we make mistakes or RNG is bad, causing them to come here and complain 'CV's are OP nerf them to the ground' while not entirely accurate, is not entirely inaccurate.

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1 hour ago, Zenn3k said:

Personally I'd be surprised if these new DDs didn't become the meta for random battles.   Being able to defend yourself against planes even a little bit opens the map back up.

You're still spotted. My hats off to people who play DD in this crappy meta, but I won't. Nothing fun in it anymore.

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1 hour ago, metus_regem said:

I've only got a Lexington, but I'm that strange CV user that spends most of their time spotting rather than engaging... mostly since I get to face T9/10 ships with it.

 

That being said, they haven't been that much of an issue for me, as once they are spotted they tend to get shot apart by my team. I'm not dumb enough to waste time fighting the AA they can dump out.

Tier 8 is when CVs really start to come in to their own. Strikes can actually become meaningful and Lex gets Tiny Tims which are great. With USN CVs I find myself abusing CAs and BBs with those rockets to both chunk damage and strip AA., just remember to pre drop to save planes in your strikes especially against strong AA as losses are expected. HE DB are actually really good for DD hunting as the attack time and angles prevent you from overshooting a DD your planes spot themselves, plus they have more HP than the attack planes.

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A skilled CV player will not have to attack a euro DD. He just has to permanently spot him until his team hoses that DD down.

A lack of smoke is the inherent weakness and the balance. Despite fast torps which can be countered with hydro, the DDs are going to suffer if facing a clever CV player.

Even if his team gets some HE on him, the lost AA from that gunfire will more than make up for attacks by rockets or even torpedoes. Torpedoes have a heal and when hit just at the right time, a European DD will be vulnerable if pinned down.

Best advice from this CV and DD player is to focus on not being predictable. Don't get spotted. If I spot you, you will be until you are dead. I don't have to get you. I will rely on a team to do the dirty deed. 

Ask any cruiser player if he has a problem with a CV spot assist of a DD that has no smoke? He will tell you that so long as he gets the kill, then he has no problem if that Sith bastard CV player spotted the DD for him. LOL

Cruiser players will love CV players if this DD shows up. Such a bad romance will not last, because CV players love to drop cruisers.

Such a dangerous alliance with the CV forces of darkness will be interesting, but necessary.

But expect such an unholy alliance OP.

So be careful out there. I did warn you. That makes me a nice guy, maybe. 😇😈

 

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9 hours ago, RYANMK48 said:

I’m a very weak DD player but even I can love these new European DDs. They make it much easier for me to play a DD with a CV present. Admittedly it really only starts at Tier 8 but the Oland and Ostergotland are AA beasts. My best so far has been 47 aircraft shot down with the Oland against a Saipan but I can routinely shoot down 20+ aircraft in any given random game. My question is will this change the meta even a little bit for CV vs DD? I’ve got to think that CV skippers will tend to avoid these DDs and look for easier targets but I wanted to ask how the regular DD and CV players felt.

It won't change anything.
I noticed also that speed and concealment can be so high that it is almost impossible to rocket some of them.
It doesn't matter, asap those DDs are spotted by others, as they can't smoke, they can be rocketed.
Some CV drivers will complain about those new DDs, they shouldn't, it's good to have new challenges.

One thing only... These new DDs are kind of super French DDs, what is the difference between the 2 lines now?

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1 hour ago, franz_von_goltz said:

It won't change anything.
I noticed also that speed and concealment can be so high that it is almost impossible to rocket some of them.
It doesn't matter, asap those DDs are spotted by others, as they can't smoke, they can be rocketed.
Some CV drivers will complain about those new DDs, they shouldn't, it's good to have new challenges.

One thing only... These new DDs are kind of super French DDs, what is the difference between the 2 lines now?

I've already use smolensk and other rapid fire cruisers to kill them... They are hard to pin down but one good trick is to drop a fighter on his head speed then come back with the rockets... Set him on fire and let the cruisers eat him alive.
Don't get me wrong these little bastards are game changers if played by a pro.
wait for the smoke to drop then wait and hit something coming to rescue him.
But elas ship knowledge is something not all players have and the casual weekend warrior are plentiful in these times of world panic
so keep an eye for them in the listing and be especially cautious if you see him in a division.

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9 hours ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

Not a CV jedi but I do enjoy sailing them. Some ships are easier pickings than others. The Pan European DD's are pretty salty little AA boats. 

The better CV drivers learn which ship are easier pickin's an those they should avoid. The weak torpedoes of the European DD's will keep many in port except for "snowflake" runs.

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Without smoke a Good CV will make quick work of them, people will become over-confident and learn a painful lesson.

My Friesland has had some great games against some very good cv drivers and the reason is smoke.

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I'm an IJN DD main who has quit playing because of CVs.  If a CV decides I'm to die, then I die, no defense.  How is that fun.

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12 hours ago, RYANMK48 said:

I’m a very weak DD player but even I can love these new European DDs. They make it much easier for me to play a DD with a CV present. Admittedly it really only starts at Tier 8 but the Oland and Ostergotland are AA beasts. My best so far has been 47 aircraft shot down with the Oland against a Saipan but I can routinely shoot down 20+ aircraft in any given random game. My question is will this change the meta even a little bit for CV vs DD? I’ve got to think that CV skippers will tend to avoid these DDs and look for easier targets but I wanted to ask how the regular DD and CV players felt.

Aloha,

As a DD main, TBH, CV's don't bother me too much. They are more a nuisance than anything.

What is important to remember with the EU DD's is that they should NOT be capping early game, nor should they be pushing forward way ahead of the force early game. Even with their AA (at later tiers). But TBH, this is true of ALL DD's, do not go straight to a cap, do not yolo away from your team mates.

Heading out from the group for spotting and screening is nice, but if you're all out on your own, it probably will not end well. I usually move up after most the enemy team has been spotted so you know the disposition or position of the enemy team and then decide from there. If you are in a battle with a CV they typically will spot a lot of the enemy team and you'll know this fairly early.

IMO the EU DD's are and can be extremely fun, but yes, if you potato then you will get clobbered (I did this while they were in testing with @SeaRaptor00 in a CV on the other team, mistakes were made, beer was consumed).

My 2 doubloons, I have been saying for about 2 years now (well before I started working for WeeGee) that CRUISERS should ALWAYS be primary first. They are one of the larger threats to an enemy team and that is to all classes. Assuming that an enemy BB is not broad to your team, the cruisers should be pounded into submission first, this removes a major threat to your entire team. DPS is dropped, AP dmg from incoming enemy ships can be mitigated somewhat, daka daka not so much.

I recently had a battle where I was in a tier X EU DD and there was a Venezia in the back that the 3 friendly BB's ignored through the entire fight and I kept him lit. But those BB's refused to shoot at him, they engaged the 2 enemy BB's that sat parked bow tanking the entire fight. In the end the Venezia had free reign to farm SAP dmg on all of them and we lost that flank. In essence 3 ships vs 5 (I had another DD with me) and we lost that flank and I was the only one left alive...

But I digress, IMO the EU DD's are very fun! :Smile_izmena:

Mahalo,

-Hapa

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46 minutes ago, BurglarOfBanff_ff said:

I'm an IJN DD main who has quit playing because of CVs.  If a CV decides I'm to die, then I die, no defense.  How is that fun.

There is an interesting Tom Cruise movie "Live Die repeat: Edge of Tomorrow"    Also there is that saying Adapt or Die  as change is hard but its inevitable.    There are hundreds of variations  of these sayings .. but the message remains constant ...  things change, they evolve and you have to change along with it.  

If things are made to be easy it will become boring and repetitious so changes are necessary and become challenges so that you may learn.   

 

Edited by Noworriesderpy1

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33 minutes ago, Hapa_Fodder said:

...........................................................................................

My 2 doubloons, I have been saying for about 2 years now (well before I started working for WeeGee) that CRUISERS should ALWAYS be primary first. They are one of the larger threats to an enemy team and that is to all classes. Assuming that an enemy BB is not broad to your team, the cruisers should be pounded into submission first, this removes a major threat to your entire team. DPS is dropped, AP dmg from incoming enemy ships can be mitigated somewhat, daka daka not so much.

............................................................................

Hapa,

My comments would be:

1.  I agree with cruisers first, but ONLY if an enemy DD is not lit.  DDs should be first priority to both take away their spotting as well as their torp threat to your BBs.

2.  Your comments about EU DDs is good, but when you are in a middle tier match with 4 CVs in the battle (or god forbid 6 CVs) all you do for the first 10 minutes of a match is sail around near your friends because without smoke if you are spotted by any of the CV's planes it isn't good for your health.  Please explain to me why WG (or you) think this is fun??   Please put a HARD CAP on 1 CV per team.....if that makes the CVs wait long so be it.  Let 2 CV players wait rather than making the 20 minute battle miserable for 20 players.  My 2 cents worth.

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13 hours ago, RYANMK48 said:

You are all too right about the disengagement. I’m learning the hard way to always make sure there is a rock somewhere nearby to dodge behind.  No matter how good my AA is when I get spotted I’m dead if there is more than one or two other enemy ships in range. I can wipe out two separate rocket strike groups and still get slaughtered by the enemy. 

On another note, I’ve seen some players advise DDs to steer straight at the incoming airplanes if I’m spotted because it makes me a harder target to hit. Is that true in your experience or do you have other advice?

 

13 hours ago, Toss_a_plus_1_to_your_CV said:

Depends on the CV. If it's a RN CV that won't help as it's rocket concentration works against that play and it's slow planes give it time to aim easily. It will dupe the 1st attack sometimes however and buy time. But if the CV player is skilled enough they will get maybe 2 more strikes in. 

I'll add to this as well in that it depends on the carrier:

USN - HVAR/FFAR aiming ellipse is set horizontal, meant for broadside attacks, and they fire more rockets per strike. Turning bow in to these planes will reduce the chances of getting hit. Ships that can carry these: Langley, Ranger, Lexington, Midway, and Enterprise. Enterprise can only carry FFAR's

USN - Tiny Tims aiming ellipse is set vertically, meant for bow or stern on attacks, and they fire fewer rockets that hit way harder. Turn broadside if you can. Saipan's rocket planes only fire Tiny Tims, they are optional for Lexington and Midway.

RN - Their aiming ellipse is vertical, and they fire multiple small rockets like the USN HVAR/FFAR. Avoid going bow in to these planes. All RN CV's carry these; Hermes, Furious, Implacable, Audacious, Ark Royal, and Indomitable.

IJN - Their aiming is not an ellipse, but a circle instead, meaning they can hit equally well in any direction. These planes carry multiple small rockets, and all IJN CV's have them; Hosho, Ryujo, Shokaku, Hakuryu, and Kaga.

 

EDIT: Whoops, forgot about Graf Zeppelin.

KM - Graf Zeppelin has a vertical aiming ellipse, and fires multiple small rockets. Avoid going bow in to these planes.

Edited by Diesel_Thunder
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54 minutes ago, Hapa_Fodder said:

Aloha,

As a DD main, TBH, CV's don't bother me too much. They are more a nuisance than anything.

What is important to remember with the EU DD's is that they should NOT be capping early game, nor should they be pushing forward way ahead of the force early game. Even with their AA (at later tiers). But TBH, this is true of ALL DD's, do not go straight to a cap, do not yolo away from your team mates.

Heading out from the group for spotting and screening is nice, but if you're all out on your own, it probably will not end well. I usually move up after most the enemy team has been spotted so you know the disposition or position of the enemy team and then decide from there. If you are in a battle with a CV they typically will spot a lot of the enemy team and you'll know this fairly early.

IMO the EU DD's are and can be extremely fun, but yes, if you potato then you will get clobbered (I did this while they were in testing with @SeaRaptor00 in a CV on the other team, mistakes were made, beer was consumed).

My 2 doubloons, I have been saying for about 2 years now (well before I started working for WeeGee) that CRUISERS should ALWAYS be primary first. They are one of the larger threats to an enemy team and that is to all classes. Assuming that an enemy BB is not broad to your team, the cruisers should be pounded into submission first, this removes a major threat to your entire team. DPS is dropped, AP dmg from incoming enemy ships can be mitigated somewhat, daka daka not so much.

I recently had a battle where I was in a tier X EU DD and there was a Venezia in the back that the 3 friendly BB's ignored through the entire fight and I kept him lit. But those BB's refused to shoot at him, they engaged the 2 enemy BB's that sat parked bow tanking the entire fight. In the end the Venezia had free reign to farm SAP dmg on all of them and we lost that flank. In essence 3 ships vs 5 (I had another DD with me) and we lost that flank and I was the only one left alive...

But I digress, IMO the EU DD's are very fun! :Smile_izmena:

Mahalo,

-Hapa

Hapa, thanks for the input.  I hesitate to disagree much since I’m still basically a noob who is trying to improve. Having said that I’m not sure I agree fully. First, in general capping early isn’t good for the EU DDs (or French DDs or Russian gunboats as well) unless there aren’t a lot of DDs to begin with and your teams CAs and CLs support you closely. I’ve had fairly good success in those situations and I also have to be willing to quickly abandon the cap and run if spotted.  Second, I really don’t mind scouting but I do it at an oblique approach to the enemies expected line of advance, that way I’m not closing with an enemy DD so fast I can’t disengage quickly and become unspotted.  Finally, I think EU DDs are better spotters than CAs but that assumes the CAs or CLs are following with 3-5 klicks so I have support.

Regardless, I love the AA on the EU DDs and while agree with so many comments about it not deterring “good” CVs (I’m looking at you @Toss_a_plus_1_to_your_CV your stats are amazing) there are only so many good CV players out there. The majority of average or bad CV players will pay a high price for focusing on the EU DDs (again, I caveat that the EU DD still needs both support and a good exit route).

Again my thanks to Hapa and everyone else who replied

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