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Dido class cruisers, what tier would they be?

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Dido and her sisters are pretty interesting ships historically, or at least I think so anyway,  would like to see her one day but I was thinking about what tier she could be in. 

Personally I think she could do well at T7, don't see them hitting up T8 unless they get the smoke and hydro combo that the British light cruisers mainline have.(which isn't impossible) Maybe a heal like the Edinburgh.  

What do you guys think?

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@mofton had a thread on this, with an assessment of Dido being placed at tier VI, something with which I agree. Her main battery wasn't that quick firing historically anyway.

As for consumables and such, DFAA and the RN DD smoke combo could be interesting to have. Heck, maybe she could end up being AP only as the rest of RN CLs for all the theorycrafting we can do.

Edited by warheart1992
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9 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

@mofton had a thread on this, with an assessment of Dido being placed at tier VI, something with which I agree. Her main battery wasn't that quick firing historically anyway.

As for consumables and such, DFAA and the RN DD smoke combo could be interesting to have. Heck, maybe she could end up being AP only as the rest of RN CLs for all the theorycrafting we can do.

That would be kind of cool, don't really have an atlanta like ship at T6, I do doubt them not having HE though since a lot of the RN cruiser premiums are destined to have  HE as their selling point it seems.

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I'm surprised they aren't in the game considering the number built, 16.

 

I'd also like to see a line of Italian destroyers, if you research the classes they have some interesting differences from the norm.

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Tier 6.

The ship people would mostly compare her to would be Atlanta, and Dido is basically a smaller (and inferior, no surprise with that size difference) Atlanta. Sure one could shoehorn her into T7, slap all those gimmicks onto her and pray it works. But that should not be the practice, rather put her where she belongs.

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Yes, T6 is a good niche, make it a  premier like the Atlanta. I enjoy T5 and 6 better than the higher tiers.

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1 hour ago, warheart1992 said:

@mofton had a thread on this, with an assessment of Dido being placed at tier VI, something with which I agree. Her main battery wasn't that quick firing historically anyway.

As for consumables and such, DFAA and the RN DD smoke combo could be interesting to have. Heck, maybe she could end up being AP only as the rest of RN CLs for all the theorycrafting we can do.

Thanks for the mention!

Here is that old link, far from the first Dido suggestion and merely 18 months ago:

The real answer to 'what tier?' is 'it doesn't really matter'. WG have apparently zero interest in a British CL premium, while with the RU cruiser line split they're adding 5 RU cruiser premiums (Mkoyan, Ochakov, Bagration, Moskva, Kirov) to the existing 13 they have. The RN has 4 cruiser premiums total. 

 

If I did have to tier one, then the options are really T5 with few/minimal gimmicks, or T6 with fairly Royal Navy level gimmicks. As general points -

  • The core hull design is based on the Arethusa class which exists in-game as the Huanghe, so expect a fairly similar armor scheme, HP pool etc.
  • Stealth should be good
  • Despite having triple-superfiring turrets forward the Dido is fairly dissimilar from Atlanta, Dido fired a heavier (80lb v 55lb) shell but more slowly, and as a secondary gun in-game gets 9 RPM for 90 total, Atlanta can throw 168 RPM. 90 RPM is the same as Nurnburg and behind the 4x3 7.5s reload cruisers, along with having less alpha and penetration.
  • Ultimately I think the ship is going to get some kind of smoke at T6, or maybe just a repair to be 'CL Exeter' at T5, T7 is possible if for instance you give it 5km base concealment, mega-repair, no-citadel, zero-dispersion etc. but silly!
  • Providing SAP would be an interesting move, right now no RN ship really benefits from IFHE which Dido would consider, 22mm HE pen base, 8% fire chance, getting 28mm HE pen would be attractive.
  • WG really hates this weapon as an AA gun, giving it low DPS - which is justifiable, though not compared to some guns - but also giving it just 5.2km range which is dumb compared to the 4in and 4.5in guns
  • @SireneRacker is correct, less capable than an Atlanta. You can get a lot for another 1,000t and Atlanta is 6,600t standard to a 5,600t Dido - Dido really is a small WWII cruiser
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The most obvious in-game comparison would be to Atlanta, although in reality there were quite a few differences.  Still, it's probably useful to think of Dido as a younger cousin to Atlanta.  Smaller ship (therefore smaller HP pool), fewer (10) but heavier (5.25", IIRC) guns.  With this admittedly superficial analysis, I'm guessing she'd fit in around T6 or so.

As an RN CL, in-game, you'd have to ask if she would be stuck firing only AP.  On the one hand, that would seem consistent, but...no.  Duel purpose guns that can only fire AP?  Wouldn't make sense.  Of course, sense or no, WG could still do it.

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Aresthusa at T5, Dido at T6 with choice of 4.5 or 5.25 inch guns to emphasise AA or antisurface. Maybe a 9x6” like Swiftsure for T7, and maybe Tiger at T8?

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1 hour ago, Bilious said:

Aresthusa at T5, Dido at T6 with choice of 4.5 or 5.25 inch guns to emphasise AA or antisurface. Maybe a 9x6” like Swiftsure for T7, and maybe Tiger at T8?

I'd like to see an Arethusa, Swiftsure and Tiger, but I'm not sure they fit in that well with a Dido. 

I'd like to see Arethusa replace Emerald in the tech tree, Swiftsure could go somewhere.

Tiger is a pain in the neck to balance, less shell output than Fiji, rapid-firing guns, but only 4 of them, and no torpedo tubes, soft hull. 

For a small-gun-cruiser line you could look at some of the C-class AA conversions, Delhi, the planned D-class conversions, Dido of course and there are some design studies. 

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7 hours ago, mofton said:

I'd like to see an Arethusa, Swiftsure and Tiger, but I'm not sure they fit in that well with a Dido. 

I'd like to see Arethusa replace Emerald in the tech tree, Swiftsure could go somewhere.

Tiger is a pain in the neck to balance, less shell output than Fiji, rapid-firing guns, but only 4 of them, and no torpedo tubes, soft hull. 

For a small-gun-cruiser line you could look at some of the C-class AA conversions, Delhi, the planned D-class conversions, Dido of course and there are some design studies. 

Even though it was a more advanced design than the Town or Crown Colony classes, the Swiftsure emphasised AA to match the prevailing late war conditions so it probably belongs at T7 in WOWS where surface warfare is dominant.

Tiger could get smoke, radar, hydro and perhaps a heal. It would be a Belfast one tier up. Compared to Belfast it would have slightly less DPM and an extra tier in exchange for much better AA and a heal. Compared to Edinburgh it would lack torpedoes and DPM but be able to have smoke and radar.

 

The RN lines could have several potential classes at each tier from 3-8 then it runs dry.

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12 hours ago, Bilious said:

Even though it was a more advanced design than the Town or Crown Colony classes, the Swiftsure emphasised AA to match the prevailing late war conditions so it probably belongs at T7 in WOWS where surface warfare is dominant.

Tiger could get smoke, radar, hydro and perhaps a heal. It would be a Belfast one tier up. Compared to Belfast it would have slightly less DPM and an extra tier in exchange for much better AA and a heal. Compared to Edinburgh it would lack torpedoes and DPM but be able to have smoke and radar.

 

The RN lines could have several potential classes at each tier from 3-8 then it runs dry.

Oh, I miss-phrased, I wouldn't put a Swiftsure in the Tech Tree but I think it'd be a premium and T7 seems about right. The better AA isn't that much of an advantage in WOWS for sure, and probably isn't even that much better.

I really don't like the smoke+radar combo which Belfast has, and I'm pretty sure WG may think the same. It's a pretty oppressive pair of consumables. If you don't have the radar but have say smoke+repair you end up just looking worse than Fiji (more DPM, torps) or Edinburgh (ditto). I'm not even sure how much better the AA would be overall, the 6in and 3in are good individual mounts but low in numbers, while Belfast/Edinburgh enjoy plentiful Bofors.

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6 hours ago, mofton said:

If you don't have the radar but have say smoke+repair you end up just looking worse than Fiji (more DPM, torps) or Edinburgh (ditto)

If you really wanted to separate her from the tech tree line at tier 7, maybe give her the option of mounting smoke or radar? That way she's not another Belfast, but can also bring something new to the table.

Anyways, I've had a few RN light cruiser premium ideas kicking around in my head, and this is what I've come up with so far. If I ever get around to doing it, I hope to write up a post fleshing these ideas out a bit with more specific stats and such.

Tier V: HMS Arethusa

  • Ideally she would be the tier 5 of the tech tree, but just in case she's an excellent candidate for the "AP only RN CL trainer" everyone has been asking about for a while. Basically, take Huanghe and put it at the tier it rightfully belongs in, while giving her Leander's set consumables and RN CL acceleration.

Tier VI: HMS Dido

  • Another choice for an AP-only captain trainer, Dido would also fare well with Leander's consumable set and acceleration, as well as a lower base conceal value to offset her lower health pool. 

Tier V or VI: HMNZS Black Prince

  • So Black Prince would actually be a Commonwealth premium, and there's two ways of balancing her. The first involves giving her the bare minimum consumable set (probably nothing more than DCP, hydro/defensive AA, and a low-tier heal) as well as HE and AP shells. Black Prince only has 4x2 guns compared to Dido's 5x2, and thus sacrifices smoke and 2 barrels for being a tier lower. The second option is to have her retain her HE shells, but give her Perth's crawling smoke in addition to the other consumables and bump her to tier 6. This might be encroaching on Perth's niche a bit, but I still think it would be worth adding to the game.

Tier VII: HMS Sheffield

  • Sheffield is one of the primary contenders for RN CL premium, and probably the one most people want to see. She's about the same size as Fiji is, has the same guns, and would also only have the standard British 6" AP shells. She'd basically function identically to her Crown Colony-class cousin (that alliteration tho). However, I envision Sheffield being able to mount a surveillance radar in the same spot as smoke generator, therefore allowing her to emulate high-tier RN CL play while not being another Belfast. Another option would be to give her Edinburgh's heal instead of radar, while also lowering her DPM and/or range. 
Edited by CrescentSky
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6 hours ago, CrescentSky said:

Anyways, I've had a few RN light cruiser premium ideas kicking around in my head, and this is what I've come up with so far. If I ever get around to doing it, I hope to write up a post fleshing these ideas out a bit with more specific stats and such.

I'd certainly love to see a Sheffield:

Spoiler

 

Or an Arethusa, I liked Aurora as a premium but she's got some name competition with the Russian T2:

Spoiler

 

I didn't do a deep stats dive but there was some discussion about consumables and tiering. Oh and just because I wanted to show it off - I ordered a big print of the blueprint of Aurora from the Royal Greenwich Museum which I'll take the opportunity to show off!

6kZqNtdg.jpg

 

I like your core concepts for those ships, though Black Prince looks a little underwhelming at T6 in that configuration.

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4 hours ago, mofton said:

 

I didn't do a deep stats dive but there was some discussion about consumables and tiering. Oh and just because I wanted to show it off - I ordered a big print of the blueprint of Aurora from the Royal Greenwich Museum which I'll take the opportunity to show off!

6kZqNtdg.jpg

 

Oh the things you can do with some currency... (He says, knowing full well that Conrad Waters' book on the Town-class was a recent addition to the collection).

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5 hours ago, mofton said:

I like your core concepts for those ships, though Black Prince looks a little underwhelming at T6 in that configuration.

As I said, I really need to get around to writing up detailed stats about those ships. I haven't contributed anything meaningful to the forum in a while, and I definitely have enough time for it now. Also, nice blueprint of the Aurora. At some point I really want to get a framed ship schematic print, although I should probably get the steam locomotive print I bought at a railroad museum framed first.

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Considering what the IFHE / Armor changes have done to mid tier Light Cruiser HE shells, the Smoke + RN CL AP only gimmick would be better for Dido in Tier VI.

 

Even 152mm x15 gun Helena in Tier VII is feeling it, as well as Tier VII Atlanta / Flint with their 127mm guns, who got kicked in the nuts with a steel toed boot.  RN CL AP is IMO, the way to go.

All this sh*t about "Will my CL HE shells work in this certain kind of match?"  The answer is RN CL AP doesn't give a f--k.  Leander, Fiji, etc. say screw all that.  Get Dido-class in with RN CL AP + Smoke + Repair Party, as well as the trademark stealth for Tier VI RN CLs such as Leander.  I'd be down for that.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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6 hours ago, Trainspite said:

Oh the things you can do with some currency... (He says, knowing full well that Conrad Waters' book on the Town-class was a recent addition to the collection).

How is it? It's on my watch list. 

11 hours ago, mofton said:

I didn't do a deep stats dive but there was some discussion about consumables and tiering. Oh and just because I wanted to show it off - I ordered a big print of the blueprint of Aurora from the Royal Greenwich Museum which I'll take the opportunity to show off!

6kZqNtdg.jpg

Fancy AF

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7 hours ago, Trainspite said:

Oh the things you can do with some currency... (He says, knowing full well that Conrad Waters' book on the Town-class was a recent addition to the collection).

 

5 hours ago, CrescentSky said:

Also, nice blueprint of the Aurora. At some point I really want to get a framed ship schematic print, although I should probably get the steam locomotive print I bought at a railroad museum framed first.

 

22 minutes ago, mr3awsome said:

Fancy AF

Thanks, I was pretty pleased with the quality, and the price wasn't too terrible for the print...

... the problem is the framing, at 66in wide it was bigger than the 60in standard framing maximum, and the price goes crazy quickly. To frame it as it was the quote was $600(!) and even with a bit of low cunning (trim some dead space off the sides, cut it into 3 pieces as 3 smaller are cheaper than 1 big, use a mounting back rather than frame) it still cost more to frame than to buy, by an order of magnitude.

Oh, and now Washington State has shut down all non-essential businesses due to COVID so we'll see when it gets finished!

Also tempted by the Town-class book.

 

 

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21 hours ago, mr3awsome said:

How is it? It's on my watch list. 

 

20 hours ago, mofton said:

Also tempted by the Town-class book.

I haven't finished reading the whole of it just yet, but I have been quite impressed by the detail included. It's not a definitive guide to the ships service lives, but there are a lot of photographs, damage plans, and details of the ships modifications and design to keep me interested. 

In keeping somewhat with mofton's print, the book also includes some plans on a fold out, the largest being this builders plan of Southampton. 

IMG_20200326_091109.jpg

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On 3/25/2020 at 12:45 PM, mofton said:

Thanks, I was pretty pleased with the quality, and the price wasn't too terrible for the print...

... the problem is the framing, at 66in wide it was bigger than the 60in standard framing maximum, and the price goes crazy quickly. To frame it as it was the quote was $600(!) and even with a bit of low cunning (trim some dead space off the sides, cut it into 3 pieces as 3 smaller are cheaper than 1 big, use a mounting back rather than frame) it still cost more to frame than to buy, by an order of magnitude.

I'll keep that in mind.    

5 hours ago, Trainspite said:

I haven't finished reading the whole of it just yet, but I have been quite impressed by the detail included. It's not a definitive guide to the ships service lives, but there are a lot of photographs, damage plans, and details of the ships modifications and design to keep me interested. 

In keeping somewhat with mofton's print, the book also includes some plans on a fold out, the largest being this builders plan of Southampton. 

Keep it on the watch list for when I need something new to read, then, I think.   

Which, given the isolation and limit to one Government mandated walk per day, may be sooner rather than later. 

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