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Daniel_Allan_Clark

Armored Cruiser - Battle Cruiser - Super Cruisers

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With the proliferation of high tier super cruisers in game...I am beginning to see a problem with cruiser match making where having one matched against your light cruisers can be problematic. Particularly when the only way to obtain super cruisers is currently to purchase or earn the special currencies. To ameliorate the possibility of that whiff of pay2win getting into the reactions of people in game...

I think we ought to be considering the addition of tech-tree lines of super cruisers. This would be possible if we follow the relatively standard progression of armored cruisers -> battle cruisers -> super cruisers.

For example, I will propose a potential British Royal Navy Line...

Tier 2: HMS Defense

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Defence_(1907)

Tier 3: HMS Indomitable

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible-class_battlecruiser

Detailed proposal:

Tier 4: HMS New Zealand

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indefatigable-class_battlecruiser

Detailed Proposal

Tier 5: HMS Princess Royal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-class_battlecruiser

Tier 5 Premium: HMS Queen Mary

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Queen_Mary

Tier 6: HMS Tiger

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tiger_(1913)

Tier 7: HMS Repulse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renown-class_battlecruiser

Tier 7 Premium: HMS Glorious - for memes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courageous-class_battlecruiser

Tier 7 Premium: HMS Hood - move to super cruiser match making

Tier 8: HMS Howe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral-class_battlecruiser

Tier 9: G3 Design

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G3_battlecruiser

Tier 10: Fictional Paper Super Cruiser

That's what most of tier 10 is nowadays anyway.

Alternatively, you could give each class modernizations and then move them up a tier and end with the G3 design modernized as the tier 10. I would then add HMS Black Prince at tier 2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Edinburgh-class_cruiser

 

Edited by Daniel_Allan_Clark
Added link to more detailed review
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A German line would be as follows:

Tier 2: SMS Friedrich Karl

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prinz_Adalbert-class_cruiser

Tier 3: SMS Blucher

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Blücher

Detailed proposal:

Tier 4: SMS Von der Tann

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Von_der_Tann

Tier 5: SMS Goeben (or Moltke if WG wanted to add the Yavuz Sultan Selim)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moltke-class_battlecruiser

Tier 5 Premium: SMS Seydlitz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Seydlitz

Tier 6: SMS Lutzow

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derfflinger-class_battlecruiser

Tier 6 Premium: SMS Prinz Eitel Friedrich

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackensen-class_battlecruiser

Tier 7: SMS Furst Bismarck

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackensen-class_battlecruiser

Tier 8: SMS Ersatz Yorck

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ersatz_Yorck-class_battlecruiser

Tier 9: SMS Siegfried or Aegir (one premium, the other not)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-class_battlecruiser

Tier 10: Fictional Paper Super Cruiser

Modernized and modified O-42?

 

Edited by Daniel_Allan_Clark
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As much as I want to see more pre-Dreadnoughts and armored cruisers in the game their best place is a new set of side tiers where their secondaries can be more effective but things like manual secondaries would need lesser or no impact.

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I would like to simply point out that while Puerto Rico was ridiculously hard to grind or expensive to buy with cash, and the Stalingrad does cost quite a bit of Steel. The Azuma, Alaska, Yoshino, and Moskava are available for Free XP or Coal and both of those currencies are easy enough to obtain. Also the Moskava has long been available as a tech tree ship to earn simply by grinding up the line.

Also the Hindenburg is quite a good heavy cruiser that can stand up to those super cruisers pretty well as can the Zao. Salem and Des Moines can also put up a good fight, but where they suffer is in gun range vs a Super Cruiser if the range stays far enough apart and the super cruiser has an ally to spot for them.

Venezia has also shaped up to be rather good. Not sure yet how good the UK CAs will turn out to be.

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7 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

As much as I want to see more pre-Dreadnoughts and armored cruisers in the game their best place is a new set of side tiers where their secondaries can be more effective but things like manual secondaries would need lesser or no impact.

This is an easily solvable problem as has been discussed in the past.

6 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I would like to simply point out that while Puerto Rico was ridiculously hard to grind or expensive to buy with cash, and the Stalingrad does cost quite a bit of Steel. The Azuma, Alaska, Yoshino, and Moskava are available for Free XP or Coal and both of those currencies are easy enough to obtain. Also the Moskava has long been available as a tech tree ship to earn simply by grinding up the line.

Also the Hindenburg is quite a good heavy cruiser that can stand up to those super cruisers pretty well as can the Zao. Salem and Des Moines can also put up a good fight, but where they suffer is in gun range vs a Super Cruiser if the range stays far enough apart and the super cruiser has an ally to spot for them.

Venezia has also shaped up to be rather good. Not sure yet how good the UK CAs will turn out to be.

Be that as it may, are you against adding new content to the game?

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9 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

As much as I want to see more pre-Dreadnoughts and armored cruisers in the game their best place is a new set of side tiers where their secondaries can be more effective but things like manual secondaries would need lesser or no impact.

...or, you could just have the super cruiser lines start at tier 4 and have HMS Inflexible as a tier 3 premium...

...and ignore the historical connection in role because of lazy development.

Seriously, how can people claim with a straight face that we are 'running out of content' and also attack new content ideas?

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3 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

This is an easily solvable problem as has been discussed in the past.

Be that as it may, are you against adding new content to the game?

Discussed many times but WG is not really interested in the low tiers and few of the pre-Dreadnought ships can honestly mix with post Dreadnought ships.

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1 hour ago, BrushWolf said:

Discussed many times but WG is not really interested in the low tiers and few of the pre-Dreadnought ships can honestly mix with post Dreadnought ships.

This thread is NOT about predreadnought ships...

Would you support the tech tree lines as laid out if they started at tier 4?

No armored cruisers at all then...

Edited by Daniel_Allan_Clark
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4 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

This thread is NOT about predreadnought ships...

Would you support the tech tree lines as laid out if they started at tier 4?

No armored cruisers at all then...

Your title is misleading because armored cruisers are a pre-Dreadnought era ship although they continued to be built and used through WWI.

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1 hour ago, BrushWolf said:

Your title is misleading because armored cruisers are a pre-Dreadnought era ship although they continued to be built and used through WWI.

I would point out your understanding of the era is flawed...and your assessment of secondary gun balance is exceptionally rigid.

HMS Defense -> 2x2 234 mm main guns, with 10x1 190mm guns. The remaining guns are 76mm that could be omitted entirely. There is no reason to not have the ship with slow firing inaccurate secondaries under the current control setup. Perfectly adequate armament for tier 2.

SMS Friedrich Carl -> 2x2 210mm main guns, with 10x1 150mm guns. The remaining guns are 88mm guns that could be omitted entirely. This is actually NO different from the rest of the secondary gun armament of other ships. Perfectly adequate armament for tier 2.

SMS Blucher -> 6x2 210mm main guns, with 8x1 150mm guns. The remaining are 88mm guns that could be omitted entirely. This is, again, NO different from the rest of the secondary gun armament of other ships. Perfectly adequate armament for tier 3.

So, do some research and actually think about what COULD be done for the game...instead of blindly limiting it based on a cursory and lazy examination of the history and the ships.

Edited by Daniel_Allan_Clark
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5 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I would point out your understanding of the era is flawed...and your assessment of secondary gun balance is exceptionally rigid.

HMS Defense -> 2x2 234 mm main guns, with 10x1 190mm guns. The remaining guns are 76mm that could be omitted entirely. There is no reason to not have the ship with slow firing inaccurate secondaries under the current control setup. Perfectly adequate armament for tier 2.

SMS Friedrich Carl -> 2x2 210mm main guns, with 10x1 150mm guns. The remaining guns are 88mm guns that could be omitted entirely. This is actually NO different from the rest of the secondary gun armament of other ships. Perfectly adequate armament for tier 2.

SMS Blucher -> 6x2 210mm main guns, with 8x1 150mm guns. The remaining are 88mm guns that could be omitted entirely. This is, again, NO different from the rest of the secondary gun armament of other ships. Perfectly adequate armament for tier 3.

So, do some research and actually think about what COULD be done for the game...instead of blindly limiting it based on a cursory and lazy examination of the history and the ships.

You understanding is the one that is flawed, those ships in game would only have the main guns controlled by the player, the rest would be secondary guns controlled by the computer and because of their tier they would have an extremely short range. With the exception of the Blucher which was with the High Seas Fleet because she was advanced for an armored cruiser with more main guns they would struggle just like the Mikasa does because of the mostly useless secondaries.

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19 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

You understanding is the one that is flawed, those ships in game would only have the main guns controlled by the player, the rest would be secondary guns controlled by the computer and because of their tier they would have an extremely short range. With the exception of the Blucher which was with the High Seas Fleet because she was advanced for an armored cruiser with more main guns they would struggle just like the Mikasa does because of the mostly useless secondaries.

Yes.

Its TIER TWO. Useless secondaries are FINE. Giving the player 4 big guns is ok at this tier. They do not need more.

Blucher's secondaries are 6 inch guns. They will be no different than any other secondaries at tier 3...and she was not designed for her 6 inch battery to be a primary weapon system.

Edited by Daniel_Allan_Clark
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1 minute ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Yes.

Its TIER TWO. Useless secondaries are FINE. Giving the player 4 big guns is ok at this tier. They do not need more.

Blucher's secondaries are 6 inch guns. They will be no different than any other secondaries at tier 3...and she was not designed for her 6 inch battery to be a primary weapon system.

Four big guns that can't hit the side of a barn from inside. Those ships relied on the secondary battery for most of their firepower and they do not translate well into the game system as it is.

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On 3/20/2020 at 4:05 PM, BrushWolf said:

Four big guns that can't hit the side of a barn from inside. Those ships relied on the secondary battery for most of their firepower and they do not translate well into the game system as it is.

Blucher did NOT rely on her secondary battery at all. Unless you want to say that Nassau and Bellerophon rely on their secondary batteries...which is patently absurd.

Defense and Friedrich Carl would be way OP if we allowed players to use more than the 4 main guns.

Plus, you can balance the main gun accuracy for those two if you want to make them fit really nicely.

All of your 'reasons' to exclude the armored cruisers have been addressed.

Heck, we could just leave them out entirely and start with New Zealand and Von der Tann at tier 4. Any problems with that?

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On 3/20/2020 at 4:18 PM, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Blucher did NOT rely on her secondary battery at all. Unless you want to say that Nassau and Bellerophon rely on their secondary batteries...which is patently absurd.

Defense and Friedrich Carl would be way OP if we allowed players to use more than the 4 main guns.

Plus, you can balance the main gun accuracy for those two if you want to make them fit really nicely.

All of your 'reasons' to exclude the armored cruisers have been addressed.

Heck, we could just leave them out entirely and start with New Zealand and Von der Tann at tier 4. Any problems with that?

Yes, even the Blucher needed her secondary battery but not to the extent that the other ships you mentioned did. Now in game the Blucher might be fine but the others would be the Mikasa all over again.

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

Yes, even the Blucher needed her secondary battery but not to the extent that the other ships you mentioned did. Now in game the Blucher might be fine but the others would be the Mikasa all over again.

Why would they be Mikasa?

There is no need to make the main guns as inaccurate as Mikasa...

The speed would be different too.

Think a little about what could work instead of dismissing everything.

Edited by Daniel_Allan_Clark

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1 minute ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Why would they be Mikasa?

There is no need to make the main guns as inaccurate as Mikasa...

The speed would be different too.

Think a little about what could work instead of dismissing everything.

Because they have four guns that won't be very accurate and their secondaries won't have enough range to be useful in randoms. They are not going to fit in with more modern designs.

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On 3/20/2020 at 4:28 PM, BrushWolf said:

Because they have four guns that won't be very accurate and their secondaries won't have enough range to be useful in randoms. They are not going to fit in with more modern designs.

WHY WOULD THEY NOT BE SUFFICIENTLY ACCURATE?

We can set them to be as accurate as we need.

Do you not understand how this works?

The ships are CONTEMPORARIES of the other ships at that tier.

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On 3/20/2020 at 4:31 PM, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

WHY WOULD THEY NOT BE SUFFICIENTLY ACCURATE?

We can set them to be as accurate as we need.

Do you not understand how this works?

The ships are CONTEMPORARIES of the other ships at that tier.

Oh, they would be a bit more accurate than the Mikasa but not by much because their gun director systems were minimal. You are the one that is trolling though probably not intentionally because you are convinced that ships from a previous era would work without changes to the game.

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19 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

Oh, they would be a bit more accurate than the Mikasa but not by much because their gun director systems were minimal. You are the one that is trolling though probably not intentionally because you are convinced that ships from a previous era would work without changes to the game.

They would presumably have cruiser/large cruiser accuracy which would be fine with 4 large-caliber guns at Tier 2. Like let's remember that Tier 2 ships have 4-5 6" guns facing a side. They're not exactly well-armed ships. 4 234mm with even 3 rpm(and these guns actually shot fairly fast, 3 rpm is conservative) would be quite competitive at Tier 2, especially on a large/fast(for tier 2) ship. 

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3 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

They would presumably have cruiser/large cruiser accuracy which would be fine with 4 large-caliber guns at Tier 2. Like let's remember that Tier 2 ships have 4-5 6" guns facing a side. They're not exactly well-armed ships. 4 234mm with even 3 rpm(and these guns actually shot fairly fast, 3 rpm is conservative) would be quite competitive at Tier 2, especially on a large/fast(for tier 2) ship. 

They are more like battleships than the cruisers we think of in the game.

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2 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

They are more like battleships than the cruisers we think of in the game.

People said exactly the same thing about Alaska for a long time. You can maybe make the case for Tsukuma/Ibuki, but even the 2x2 armored cruisers like Minotaur and Pennsylvania are not very much like battleships or even more closely related battlecruisers. They don't carry guns as large, but they are significantly faster than any T3 battleship. I think you could make a case for armored cruisers at T2/T3, with the uniform caliber designs like Blucher or Edgar Quinet going up to T4/T5.

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37 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

Oh, they would be a bit more accurate than the Mikasa but not by much because their gun director systems were minimal. You are the one that is trolling though probably not intentionally because you are convinced that ships from a previous era would work without changes to the game.

Lol.

You think WG balances accuracy by looking at historical fire control systems?

No, not so.

We just adjust the sigma and the elipse size to be appropriate for 4 guns.

2 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

They are more like battleships than the cruisers we think of in the game.

They are super cruisers. Historically distinct from 'light' or 'heavy' cruisers.

Principally because they have some useable armor.

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1 minute ago, Aetreus said:

People said exactly the same thing about Alaska for a long time.

These really were small battleships and often stood in the line with the battleships. The Maine was ordered as a battleship second class but because of the long build period was classed as an armored cruiser when launched.

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Just now, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Lol.

You think WG balances accuracy by looking at historical fire control systems?

No, not so.

We just adjust the sigma and the elipse size to be appropriate for 4 guns.

They are super cruisers. Historically distinct from 'light' or 'heavy' cruisers.

Principally because they have some useable armor.

No but I do think that they are not going to give them anywhere near the accuracy they would need to be competitive with so few guns. Also because of the extremely short range of their secondaries they would be an experience pinata to any player that was smart enough to stay out of their range.

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