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ArIskandir

Just an idea for Subs gameplay

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Since subs are coming regardless we like it or not... What if... instead of silly gimmicks, pings and homming torps, they were more "normal" in the sense a sub should be, but with the special feature that they spam on the enemy side of the enemy map at random place? 

A very sneaky/slowish/peeping tom/suspenseful gameplay style. You live among enemies, if you are spotted you are dead, but you get to torp the camping CV/Cruiser parked behind an island. Stab ships when they are distracted. Radio enemy ships location if you dare surface. It could be interesting to play, at least for me. Just please no dumb pings, homming torps, and spotting for own team should risk detection by Radio Location.

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I like the idea of being like what subs of the era were but no because this would be pure griefing unless your objective is to make subs so hated that people will like CV's

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Subs natural prey would be stationary targets and people hanging in the back, I think that would be a good way to spur players to be more active. 

If the sub gets slow but heavy hitting fish and slow rate of fire, I don't think they would be too much of a grief. i expect to be very hard to hit ships manouvering or kitting. The CVs parked behind the island surely wont like it but it is time for them to have some playback 

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1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

Since subs are coming regardless we like it or not... What if... instead of silly gimmicks, pings and homming torps, they were more "normal" in the sense a sub should be, but with the special feature that they spam on the enemy side of the enemy map at random place? 

A very sneaky/slowish/peeping tom/suspenseful gameplay style. You live among enemies, if you are spotted you are dead, but you get to torp the camping CV/Cruiser parked behind an island. Stab ships when they are distracted. Radio enemy ships location if you dare surface. It could be interesting to play, at least for me. Just please no dumb pings, homming torps, and spotting for own team should risk detection by Radio Location.

After they fired their 1st torps it would be easy to home into their location...& their low torp damage wouldn't be worth the quick trip back to port.

But it is a better idea than homing torps...although I think they were just trying out a proof of concept idea there & at least some modifications will be added if they are released as such.

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1 minute ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

After they fired their 1st torps it would be easy to home into their location...& their low torp damage wouldn't be worth the quick trip back to port.

 

Thats the catch of playing the class, if you miss, or derp your chance you are sunk, you would have to wait for the right chance and the right ship, else you are back to port the fast way. Damage should be oriented to very high alpha but very hard to achieve. Wont be everyones cup but would be different from other classes and a change of style.

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I like this concept far better than what we have right now on the ST

Might I suggest a faster torpedo reload, like around 80-90 seconds, with slightly higher damage, but the same slow torp speed and a lower torpedo count per salvo ( like 2 instead of 4 ), as well as low torpedo detectability.

Also, Hydroacoustic Search should be capable of detecting submarines, and the Torpedoes shouldn't be able to do that stupid Citadel hit thing under the torpedo belt

Just my two cents

:SerB:

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Or we take test 2 and build more in to he idea of how Sub's were historically.

Basically most submarines within the time frame of the game were not what most people these think of submarines that you see in films like 'Hunt for Red October', 'Crimson Tide' and all that - these were ships that could go underwater, especially in WWI. It isn't till you get to late war German designs/post war you get to something resembling modern day nuclear age submarines. 

Tier 5 (unless they really want to go to 4 but I think they should start at 5) with subs like UB-III class subs of Germany (what would evolve into Type VII) that really are just short of surface vessels that can dive for a very limited time. Maybe 30-45 seconds continuous as needed. As you move up in tiers, the time you can spend underwater increases, as does possibly recharge rate, but overall they stay surfaced until they have to dive. A far more convenient version of smoke in some ways, though as you get to some designs meant to be under water more they can spend extended times under but have other drawbacks (most would lack AA/artillery and be slower on the surface than when submerged - meaning when forced to surface they are at a heavier disadvantage than normal).

Torpedoes should also be able to be fired while surfaced (this is something done almost routinely by actual subs of the time when possible) with surface fire being more accurate and submerged firing being slightly less so (bigger aim points that it can go off a little in). They should also work similar to the Halloween even in which you have access to all tubes and can fire 1 at a time, each reloading after it's launched. 

There should also depending on nation be 2 types of torps. With USN and Germany being the first two I'll just go over their's. In the case of Germany, starting at tier 7 they should gain access to a PASSIVE acoustic homing torpedo. For those that don't know what Wargaming has been using is ACTIVE homing - a function not really used till much later. The Passive homing torpedo when launched from a sub will go straight till it's within 3-400 meters (.3-.4 km) of a ship, and then start to turn toward the engine areas/propellers that would be making the noise for it to home in on. By the time it starts to home it's been spotted already (standard spotting should be 1.3-1.4 given usual torp speeds) and is not only not a guaranteed hit (as if they are too far in front of/behind they either won't track or won't turn fast enough) but a shot that may have hit the bow forward of protection may turn into the protection for reduced damage. As well as they pack a little less punch naturally. However the pro's are that they will be a little more accurate (close misses now would be hits) and more likely to disable a ships propulsion/steering for follow attacks with standard torpedoes. USN should get a specialized DWT - instead of homing in on a target USN would get a DWT that when you hit amidships can citadel a cruiser - BB's would perform normal against and DD's pass under. But it would be a 100% skill shot, you got to have perfect aim. And then both would have a regular torpedo basically like DD's, it goes straight and hits everything. 

They should have use of their deck guns - they won't do much but A: they might finish off a severely weakened ship, B: they can at least do something like set fires, Germany in particular used incendiary shells, and C: it does not mean a submarine duel is who can land torps first, but can generally engage one another with deck guns while trying to get a shot.

As for AA - I say this as someone who plays CV, give them enough DPS that they have at least some defense if they are trapped on the surface and I roll up with attack planes (who's rockets do need a serious alpha nerf), even if it's unrealistic even let the deck guns shoot at the planes if necessary. Spotting as is should be the same pain as it is with a DD smart enough to keep it's AA off (roughly 2km, maybe even less), and we really need to move to minimap spotting for the team by CV's. 

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28 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Might I suggest a faster torpedo reload, like around 80-90 seconds, with slightly higher damage, but the same slow torp speed and a lower torpedo count per salvo ( like 2 instead of 4 ), as well as low torpedo detectability.

Also, Hydroacoustic Search should be capable of detecting submarines, and the Torpedoes shouldn't be able to do that stupid Citadel hit thing under the torpedo belt

Just my two cents

:SerB:

I agree Hydro should be capable of detecting subs, but range of detection should be dependant of sub speed, to make things interesting.

Since subs only have torps, maybe give them the hability to single launch as RN for a bit more of flexibility of use, maybe have 2 types of torps with differente stats.

TY for engaging

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27 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

Or we take test 2 and build more in to he idea of how Sub's were historically.

Basically most submarines within the time frame of the game were not what most people these think of submarines that you see in films like 'Hunt for Red October', 'Crimson Tide' and all that - these were ships that could go underwater, especially in WWI. It isn't till you get to late war German designs/post war you get to something resembling modern day nuclear age submarines. 

Tier 5 (unless they really want to go to 4 but I think they should start at 5) with subs like UB-III class subs of Germany (what would evolve into Type VII) that really are just short of surface vessels that can dive for a very limited time. Maybe 30-45 seconds continuous as needed. As you move up in tiers, the time you can spend underwater increases, as does possibly recharge rate, but overall they stay surfaced until they have to dive. A far more convenient version of smoke in some ways, though as you get to some designs meant to be under water more they can spend extended times under but have other drawbacks (most would lack AA/artillery and be slower on the surface than when submerged - meaning when forced to surface they are at a heavier disadvantage than normal).

Torpedoes should also be able to be fired while surfaced (this is something done almost routinely by actual subs of the time when possible) with surface fire being more accurate and submerged firing being slightly less so (bigger aim points that it can go off a little in). They should also work similar to the Halloween even in which you have access to all tubes and can fire 1 at a time, each reloading after it's launched. 

There should also depending on nation be 2 types of torps. With USN and Germany being the first two I'll just go over their's. In the case of Germany, starting at tier 7 they should gain access to a PASSIVE acoustic homing torpedo. For those that don't know what Wargaming has been using is ACTIVE homing - a function not really used till much later. The Passive homing torpedo when launched from a sub will go straight till it's within 3-400 meters (.3-.4 km) of a ship, and then start to turn toward the engine areas/propellers that would be making the noise for it to home in on. By the time it starts to home it's been spotted already (standard spotting should be 1.3-1.4 given usual torp speeds) and is not only not a guaranteed hit (as if they are too far in front of/behind they either won't track or won't turn fast enough) but a shot that may have hit the bow forward of protection may turn into the protection for reduced damage. As well as they pack a little less punch naturally. However the pro's are that they will be a little more accurate (close misses now would be hits) and more likely to disable a ships propulsion/steering for follow attacks with standard torpedoes. USN should get a specialized DWT - instead of homing in on a target USN would get a DWT that when you hit amidships can citadel a cruiser - BB's would perform normal against and DD's pass under. But it would be a 100% skill shot, you got to have perfect aim. And then both would have a regular torpedo basically like DD's, it goes straight and hits everything. 

They should have use of their deck guns - they won't do much but A: they might finish off a severely weakened ship, B: they can at least do something like set fires, Germany in particular used incendiary shells, and C: it does not mean a submarine duel is who can land torps first, but can generally engage one another with deck guns while trying to get a shot.

As for AA - I say this as someone who plays CV, give them enough DPS that they have at least some defense if they are trapped on the surface and I roll up with attack planes (who's rockets do need a serious alpha nerf), even if it's unrealistic even let the deck guns shoot at the planes if necessary. Spotting as is should be the same pain as it is with a DD smart enough to keep it's AA off (roughly 2km, maybe even less), and we really need to move to minimap spotting for the team by CV's. 

Basically agree with almost everything. But a couple things. I think dive time should be significantly larger (unless very low tiers), it is offset by being very slow underwater and virtually defenseless in order to play cat and mouse for extended periods of time, else the sub would be too easily caught and toast, but agree there should be a hard limit to time submerged with a recharge time. Deck guns for lower tiers and basically to finish wounded ships. 

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Homing torps that can curve like a curve ball, pings that gan go through islands like radar can, so you can hit the ships hiding up agasint an island.

And of course if it is a russian sub it will have smoke, radar, hydro, maybe a spotter plane, torps that do 90knots, and go 30 km, with .2 detection, just have a look at the new russian line of CA coming should be a fair indication

(ok spotter plane on a sub might be going to far but you know what I mean)

 

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6 minutes ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

Homing torps that can curve like a curve ball, pings that gan go through islands like radar can, so you can hit the ships hiding up agasint an island.

And of course if it is a russian sub it will have smoke, radar, hydro, maybe a spotter plane, torps that do 90knots, and go 30 km, with .2 detection, just have a look at the new russian line of CA coming should be a fair indication

(ok spotter plane on a sub might be going to far but you know what I mean)

 

Beyond the details of how they would work and what can or can´t they do, what I like about the it (subs starting in enemy territory) is the idea of starting the match with a spy in your midst, I find it unsettling ,in a good way, to know that somewhere, maybe under your own ship, there is a sub lurking ready to pounce if you are careless. 

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2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Subs natural prey would be stationary targets and people hanging in the back, I think that would be a good way to spur players to be more active. 

If the sub gets slow but heavy hitting fish and slow rate of fire, I don't think they would be too much of a grief. i expect to be very hard to hit ships manouvering or kitting. The CVs parked behind the island surely wont like it but it is time for them to have some playback 

Ships are supposed to use island cover. They are often designed that way, and the maps are designed to give them that cover. 

Subs simply should not be in Randoms, just like CVs. But the devs are committed to removing all the fun tactical options from the game and turning surface ships into mere target drones, so I expect they will be the final nail in the coffin of game play. 

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Isn't the motto around here "adapt and overcome" (or something like that)?

It will be different but not necesarilly bad, of course it could go the wrong way but also could be a fun adition.

Though I don't play CVs, I don't mind having them in randoms. Variety of options is usually a good thing to have.

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14 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Basically agree with almost everything. But a couple things. I think dive time should be significantly larger (unless very low tiers), it is offset by being very slow underwater and virtually defenseless in order to play cat and mouse for extended periods of time, else the sub would be too easily caught and toast, but agree there should be a hard limit to time submerged with a recharge time. Deck guns for lower tiers and basically to finish wounded ships.

It may not have translated well, I'm not always the best writer but as far as dive times that's actually what I meant. Breaking it down by how I'd do the tech tree for Germany (because I can rattle it off easier than USN's)

  • tier 5 - Type UB III, 30 seconds of continuous dive time
  • tier 6 - interwar design whose designation I can't remember (built for Turkey) or any number of modified UB III types produced post war by the dummy company - 40 seconds
  • tier 7 - Type I U-boat - 50 seconds
  • tier 8 - Type VII U-boat - 70 seconds
  • tier 9 - Type IX U-boat - 90 seconds
  • tier 10 - Type XXI - 120 seconds, highest recharge time, faster submerged than surfaced, more accurate submerged than surfaced

Now those times are as stated on UB III type how long they can dive continuously at any given moment with full oxygen supply. A UB III could say use 15 seconds to get closer to a Texas to take a shot then get back out of it's surface spotted range, and then when a Langley tries to track it down from the attack depending on time elapsed dive for 16-30 seconds to avoid detection. Then much like reality as threats become more lethal dive times increase to try and avoid them more, with up through type IX still being more a ship you want to spend as much time hunting on the surface as you can and use the dives more tactically. With tier 10 being more time spent underwater because it's more advantageous to the design.

For me USN would be similar with it's classes, except the tier 10 would have 2 hull options. The first would be standard Balao/Gato/Tench class submarines in which the 'A' hull would be the standard late/immediate post war hull's that would play the exact same as previous tiers and Germany through tier 9 (other than the 2nd type of torp they have) and the 'B' hull would be a conversion made later like GUPPY that removed guns and all and would shift the playstyle closer to that of the Type XXI Germany has. It all being a matter of do you want to give up some/all surface and air defense (I know XXI's had a couple AA autocannons but I believe GUPPY conversions had nothing) for improved abilities when submerged and longer/more frequent dives. Though I could also see tier 10 being where active acoustic homing torps like what Wargaming has been using could be a thing though with several changes (does not change torp depth for auto citadel on all ships, maybe make it you ping first for your shooting solution then fire - with the enemy hearing a sound effect to know they were pinged to start trying to evade the torp since it will have far more advanced tracking and from further out than standard German passive homing, etc) with Type XXI and B hull USN using these to further improve underwater abilities and make up for losses in surface ability. With that style of homing torp only usable when submerged, as opposed to standard/passive acoustic torps that can be fired submerged or surfaced.

And yeah - your never going to beat a DD with the deck guns, unless maybe we bring in some of the cruiser like subs I've heard about, let alone a cruiser or BB, they are really just there that maybe your forced to the surface as a DD you torped charges you and maybe just enough to finish it off or try and do some damage before the 3 ships that just drove you to the surface tear you to shreds. Only thing that deck guns could 100% beat for you is another submarine.

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