Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
SidTheBlade

Are fires now balanced?

21 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,015
[USA-N]
Members
785 posts
9,252 battles

Just played a match in the once feared Smolensk. Spent most of it shooting at, and hitting, a same tier (X) BB.

185 hits.

2 fires.

23k damage.

So, this is without IFHE. It is WITH the two fire flags.

That equates to 135 damage per hit, and about 1% fire chance.

Balance?

Maybe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,846
[GWG]
[GWG]
Supertester
26,433 posts
14,165 battles

Bad luck, on average with that many hits you should see 10.8 fires from a Smol. It also sounds like he was hitting armor a lot.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
428
[KSC]
Members
641 posts
9,594 battles
39 minutes ago, SidTheBlade said:

Just played a match in the once feared Smolensk. Spent most of it shooting at, and hitting, a same tier (X) BB.

185 hits.

2 fires.

23k damage.

So, this is without IFHE. It is WITH the two fire flags.

That equates to 135 damage per hit, and about 1% fire chance.

Balance?

Maybe.

Some things to remember and factor.

1) Fires cannot re-light on a section of hull while an existing fire is there.  Were others HE spamming your target and setting fires (and preventing you from setting them too)?  When you set a fire, did you continue to spam that same area while the fire burned instead of hitting a different section of hull?

2) As to raw damage, the Smolensk cannot achieve penetration on any part of a T8 to T10 Battleship with HE except the superstructure.  Everywhere except the superstructure has a minimum of 32mm plating, which cannot be penetrated even with IFHE on the Smolensk.  Were you focusing the majority of your shells at the superstructure?

3) Base fire chance on a Smolensk is 8%.  Using both Fire Chance flags increases that to 9%.  On average, a Tier 10 Battleships has around a 50% reduced chance to have a fire break out (this is anecdotal and may be more like a 60% reduction?).  This would drop your Fire Chance from 9% down to 4.5%.  So for 200 shell hits, on non-burning areas, you should statistically expect 9 fires.  This could be reduced further by the "Fire Prevention" Captain Skill and the Damage Control mod in slot 2.

Edited by Ahskance
Altered numbers per correction from BrushWolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,846
[GWG]
[GWG]
Supertester
26,433 posts
14,165 battles
14 minutes ago, Ahskance said:

Some things to remember and factor.

1) Fires cannot re-light on a section of hull while an existing fire is there.  Were others HE spamming your target and setting fires (and preventing you from setting them too)?  When you set a fire, did you continue to spam that same area while the fire burned instead of hitting a different section of hull?

2) As to raw damage, the Smolensk cannot achieve penetration on any part of a T8 to T10 Battleship with HE except the superstructure.  Everywhere except the superstructure has a minimum of 32mm plating, which cannot be penetrated even with IFHE on the Smolensk.  Were you focusing the majority of your shells at the superstructure?

3) Base fire chance on a Smolensk is 4%.  Using both Fire Chance flags increases that to 5%.  On average, a Tier 10 Battleships has around a 50% reduced chance to have a fire break out (this is anecdotal and may be more like a 60% reduction?).  This would drop your Fire Chance from 5% down to 2.5%.  So for 200 shell hits, on non-burning areas, you should statistically expect 5 fires.  This could be reduced further by the "Fire Prevention" Captain Skill and the Damage Control mod in slot 2.

The base fire chance on the Smol is 8%, 4% is with IFHE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
428
[KSC]
Members
641 posts
9,594 battles
9 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

The base fire chance on the Smol is 8%, 4% is with IFHE.

Only had a 10 point Captain on mine and rarely touched it.  Thanks for the correction!

Edited by Ahskance
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,015
[USA-N]
Members
785 posts
9,252 battles

I confess, I am not a big fan of the fire meta. If the Smol is no more, I can live with it. Brawling BBs will be back, in a big way.

However, sometimes I really doubt WG have a solid technical grasp on their own game mechanics. It just seems sometimes like they can't achieve balance in the game. They seem always to be moving between extreme positions.

 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,090
[SSG]
Alpha Tester
5,035 posts
11,620 battles
3 hours ago, SidTheBlade said:

Just played a match in the once feared Smolensk. Spent most of it shooting at, and hitting, a same tier (X) BB.

185 hits.

2 fires.

23k damage.

So, this is without IFHE. It is WITH the two fire flags.

That equates to 135 damage per hit, and about 1% fire chance.

Balance?

Maybe.

shot-20_03.13_08_53_53-0049.thumb.jpg.4aeef7360b259fb4d4cdfc3c5852ea5e.jpg

Trust me - fires are alive and well because Wargaming DID NOT actually address the issue - instead making the issue worse regarding the abilities of tier 8+ 152-155 mm cruisers and the IJN gunboats tier 8+, while tier 7 and lower is reverted to the state it was prior to IFHE's inclusion - which was why IFHE was added in the first place.

What you encountered is the exact reason IFHE was added - fires alone were far too RNG. You either devastate with hellfire or do nothing, there is no in between really. Namely the 152 mm cruisers had issues as 203's could pen BB's with HE. 

Where IFHE became a problem is that it completely nullified battleship armour basically. Blast the bow, auto pen. BB's were balanced that sure, a cruiser would hammer away at them with 100 RPM from a Cleveland or more - but usually most would shatter with the occasional fire when bow on. Now BB's instead of say maybe 1-2 in 10 penning were consistently being penned by 5/10 or more per salvo. so instead of 726-1452 every 10 hits they were taking closer to 3700. And Repair Party between amount and the 80 second CD can not cope with that - especially because only 50% of damage can be repaired from normal pens on most ships. Which is made worse when stating several fires because the damage a single fire can do to a BB on average is equal to or more than what a single repair party can fix - which is why the 'fire damage is fully repairable' argument has never actually held water. 30k damage from auto pens and 2 fires, assuming you survive, would take 3 uses of repair party with nothing shooting at you for about 5 minutes - and given the spotting range of BB's and all, that is doubtful. You also only get maybe 5 charges max of the consumable. And the thing is after the CV rework - Battleships are the only ship that still uses the same HP% from fires as when the game launched. Every other type had it reduced. 

For once the way to fix the fire/IFHE combo issue is to address it indirectly - so naturally wargaming did it directly.

Undo the changes they made to 152-155 mm pen and the main batteries of IN gunboats, and go back to 30% increase with whatever percent for cruisers fire chance reduction and 1% for DD's. You then reduce the damage taken by BB's from fire to 15% max instead of 18% it is now (or go to 12% but no lower than that). Increase the amount of pen damage that is repaired by Repair Party for all ships, not just BB's, and lower the cooldown. If needed - also reduce DCP cooldown. This will add back what BB's lost with IFHE and what some other types could use a little more of - survivability. They still eat damage and don't shrug it like they used to, but better than now, CL aren't reliant purely on RNG fires, everyone is happy - or at least not as annoyed.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,379
[-KIA-]
Members
3,475 posts
14,840 battles

If you're not running IFHE you shouldn't have too much issues with fire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,015
[USA-N]
Members
785 posts
9,252 battles

Nice game, but you only started 8 fires with 400 hits. That is 2%. Without IFHE, and with commander skills and flags, it should be 10%. Even with the 50% reduction for tier X, 400 hits at 5% should give 20 fires, not 8. 

I'm finding I am getting between 1% and 2%, without IFHE, with commander skills, with flags. This is from multiple games scoring around 300 hits per game, so the RNG luck of the draw is no longer a factor.

The weird thing is, I have watched RN BBs set multiple fires with each salvo, several salvos in a row. So, some fire percentage chance seems to be what it says on the tin, while other chances seem nerfed into oblivion.

I wonder what the damage would be like, with 300 to 400 hits, if AP were used instead of HE. You got about 300 HP of damage per hit, in that game. I'm seeing about the same, sometimes a bit less.

Edited by SidTheBlade

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
316
[-ICE-]
Members
417 posts

No, all of the ships with the 152 guns (helena ect) are wrecked. for one even with the IFHE the pen is just 31mm, most every BB has 32 armor so the only spot to hit is the center tower or what ever we call it, then if you do hit it you got chopped to 7% fire chance.   The Cruzers are killed because the BB captians feel nobody should be allowed to touch them.  I hit a Tripz about 200 times and i think I got less then 10k and the AP... it dont do anything.    Hopefully they give the ships with the smaller guns back the 5% pen they stripped.. im actually ok with the stripping of all the fires but the 152 guns need the extra 5% pen or add more to at least get a pen..  curb the fires fine but give back or add more to the pen.     Reworking capts and taking off IFHE give you 25mm pen.. in T7 and higher is just stupid.   so anyways  Have a good day

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
185
[CDOH]
Members
391 posts
6,929 battles

i never used IFHE on Smolensk.  I get between 15 and 20 fires a game.  Smolensk is just fine interms of DOT damage.  I am not sure on the impact of the armor nerf.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,015
[IRNBN]
Members
3,396 posts
9,822 battles
13 hours ago, SidTheBlade said:

Just played a match in the once feared Smolensk. Spent most of it shooting at, and hitting, a same tier (X) BB.

185 hits.

2 fires.

23k damage.

So, this is without IFHE. It is WITH the two fire flags.

That equates to 135 damage per hit, and about 1% fire chance.

Balance?

Maybe.

     Most likely RNG hates you today. I run DE on my Smelly, same as Kutuzov, Atlanta, and Boise. Fire good! :cap_rambo:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,453
[WOLFG]
Members
29,092 posts
8,332 battles
14 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

Bad luck, on average with that many hits you should see 10.8 fires from a Smol. It also sounds like he was hitting armor a lot.

Not necessarily. If the target is a T10 BB with DCM1 and FP, and you have DE, you should only expect 7.7 fires. Without DE, 6.3 fires. And that's only if every shell hits something not already on fire, and only hits when DCP is not running.

He didn't get near that, but it means you don't need as crazy of RNG to get that low.

Edited by Skpstr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,922
[KSC]
Clan Supertest Coordinator
5,127 posts
7,992 battles
13 hours ago, SidTheBlade said:

I confess, I am not a big fan of the fire meta. If the Smol is no more, I can live with it. Brawling BBs will be back, in a big way.

No they won't....because the vast majority of high tier HE spammers never needed IFHE in the first place....and things like the Smolensk and Colbert (which could never pen BB plating to being with) are more likely to drop IFHE and just spec into full fire builds, which will make them even more effective against BBs. 

Edited by yashma
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,846
[GWG]
[GWG]
Supertester
26,433 posts
14,165 battles
25 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Not necessarily. If the target is a T10 BB with DCM1 and FP, and you have DE, you should only expect 7.7 fires. Without DE, 6.3 fires. And that's only if every shell hits something not already on fire, and only hits when DCP is not running.

He didn't get near that, but it means you don't need as crazy of RNG to get that low.

I was just using the base fire chance over the stated 135 hits and not worrying about details as the number will go up and down over time anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,846
[GWG]
[GWG]
Supertester
26,433 posts
14,165 battles
23 minutes ago, yashma said:

No they won't....because the vast majority of high tier HE spammers never needed IFHE in the first place....and things like the Smolensk and Colbert (which could never pen BB plating to being with) are more likely to drop IFHE and just spec into full fire builds, which will make them even more effective against BBs. 

This, and people will have to actually change ammunition type instead of using the one size fits all IFHE spam. Heck even the Smolensk and other ships with sub 5 inch guns can benefit from well timed use of AP on the correct targets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,453
[WOLFG]
Members
29,092 posts
8,332 battles
1 hour ago, BrushWolf said:

I was just using the base fire chance over the stated 135 hits and not worrying about details as the number will go up and down over time anyway.

Fair enough, except it was 185 hits.

As far as going up and down, using the base chance gives you 8%, when in reality, the absolute best Smolensk can get is 7%, that's with a T8 non-BB target, (BBs usually have DCM1) DE, and both fire bonus signals. Against that T10 BB with common fire mitigation, with IFHE & DE, and no signals, it's only 2.6%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
144
[WOLF9]
Members
663 posts
18,963 battles

Are fires balanced?  You betcha.  I usually have one going at the bow and at the stern almost every match.  Couldn't get any more balanced unless you get the 4 in one salvo deal.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
185
[CDOH]
Members
391 posts
6,929 battles

After playing the IFHE respec,  I am considering taking IFHE with 152MM guns.  To often people repair fires.   I am not getting reliable damage. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
662
[CAST]
[CAST]
Members
2,609 posts
10,459 battles
On 3/16/2020 at 1:32 PM, BrushWolf said:

This, and people will have to actually change ammunition type instead of using the one size fits all IFHE spam. Heck even the Smolensk and other ships with sub 5 inch guns can benefit from well timed use of AP on the correct targets.

Once a fire or 2 is set, it is almost always beneficial to switch to AP for the higher pen damage anyway.  People often forget about that on ships like the Smolensk.  That ship pounding AP into the superstructure or the side of a broadside cruiser is just nasty.

 

1 hour ago, Rothgar_57 said:

After playing the IFHE respec,  I am considering taking IFHE with 152MM guns.  To often people repair fires.   I am not getting reliable damage. 

On fast shooting ships, even choosing IFHE still results in high rates of setting fires, all while penetrating most plating.  Most of the 152MM gun ships are this faster shooting type which really benefit from the extra penetration damage.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×