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Kestrel_Falcon

Pan Euro DD's purpose?

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I struggle to figure out what the purpose of WG theory behind the Pan-Euro destroyer line.  They are certainly are not holding their own against CVs.  I think defensive fire is to make me feel good. All they had to do was copy the Friesland using smoke and defensive torps at the 3-4K range. The old saying.... put lipstick on a pig... it's still a pig.  Thoughts, please!!!

Edited by Kestrel_Falcon

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To spot, to kill enemy DDs, to try to survive being spotted and maybe cap unopposed later in game.

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20 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

To spot, to kill enemy DDs, to try to survive being spotted and maybe cap unopposed later in game.

So basically nothing; since 8-9 of 10 will be dead before it even reaches ‘later in the game...’

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20 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

So basically nothing; since 8-9 of 10 will be dead before it even reaches ‘later in the game...’

Actually I put 4 actions you are supposed to do.

I didn't say it would be easy or that you wouldn't die, but that is the task. With the torp ships I would change out the destroy enemy DDs with trying to support your team with torp placement (who knows you might even get a hit lol).

 

It's not as if WG have not made the role of the DD very clear; if you don't like it, jump in another ship type and play the role you prefer. :Smile_honoring:

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1 hour ago, Kestrel_Falcon said:

I struggle to figure out what the purpose of WG theory behind the Pan-Euro destroyer line.

They were introduced into the game to provide a new batch of targets for all the premium CVs WG is selling players lately. Most DD players have given up playing DDs by now as the game is nothing but death from above for them, and so WG brought in a new line of DDs to make up for the fact that many matches had either one, or none, and people were starting to notice. WG doesn't like to admit they make mistakes, ie: the entire CV rework, and it is easier to add new DDs than it is to fix old screw-ups. When players get tired of the Pan European DDs, WG has some others waiting in the wings to introduce:

The Pan-South-American DD line, featuring DDs from Brazil, Argentina, Peru, etc.

The Pan-Afrikan DD Line, featuring DDs from South Africa, Egypt, Libya, Israel, and Western Sahara.

The Pan Artic DD line, featuring DDs from Greenland, Iceland, Bear Island, and Santa's Workshop.

The Pan Fantasy DD line, featuring DDs from Shangri-La, Xanadu, Fantasy Island, and Lower Middle Earth.

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To be gun fodder for other DD lines and the CV...

Its the way of things in today's 0.9.2 meta.

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To torp more consistently, but sadly their engineers were replaced with sorority girls, resulting in pillow-like damage.

They strike me as the new torp boat line, sorta kinda.

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3 hours ago, Umikami said:

They were introduced into the game to provide a new batch of targets for all the premium CVs WG is selling players lately. Most DD players have given up playing DDs by now as the game is nothing but death from above for them, and so WG brought in a new line of DDs to make up for the fact that many matches had either one, or none, and people were starting to notice. WG doesn't like to admit they make mistakes, ie: the entire CV rework, and it is easier to add new DDs than it is to fix old screw-ups. When players get tired of the Pan European DDs, WG has some others waiting in the wings to introduce:

The Pan-South-American DD line, featuring DDs from Brazil, Argentina, Peru, etc.

The Pan-Afrikan DD Line, featuring DDs from South Africa, Egypt, Libya, Israel, and Western Sahara.

The Pan Artic DD line, featuring DDs from Greenland, Iceland, Bear Island, and Santa's Workshop.

The Pan Fantasy DD line, featuring DDs from Shangri-La, Xanadu, Fantasy Island, and Lower Middle Earth.

Oooooh, Dude, that's so hilarious!!!! Santa's workshop! The "SPREADSHEET" doesn't show enjoyment/fun. All WG had to do was take the baseline from the Friesland, through on 3-4K range defensive Torps. But Nooooooooooooooooooooooo! They had to be cheeky by placing super fast torps, short-range guns, ridiculous torps arcs and to top it off........ wait for it........... turrets that traverse as if I am on HMS Warspite!  Oh, the fame to claim, NOT!!!!  AA prowess VS Carriers!! What a Joke! OsterGotland ain't got no game vs carriers.  The least they could have done is introduce Saab Rb-08 (AShM) only two rounds of missiles against BB/CL/CA. Yes, a consumable missile slot.

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6 hours ago, Kestrel_Falcon said:

I struggle to figure out what the purpose of WG theory behind the Pan-Euro destroyer line.  They are certainly are not hold their own against CVs.  I think defensive fire is to make me feel good. All they had to do was copy the Friesland using smoke and defensive torps at the 3-4K range. The old saying.... put lipstick on a pig... it's still a pig.  Thoughts, please!!!

Variety is the spice of life.

Having more options is better than having fewer options, I feel.

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10 hours ago, Kestrel_Falcon said:

I struggle to figure out what the purpose of WG theory behind the Pan-Euro destroyer line.  They are certainly are not hold their own against CVs.  I think defensive fire is to make me feel good. All they had to do was copy the Friesland using smoke and defensive torps at the 3-4K range. The old saying.... put lipstick on a pig... it's still a pig.  Thoughts, please!!!

I've played only a few battles, but this is what I have found:
- They can bully other DDs at short range.
- They can burn BBs at medium range.
- They're not very agile and they're slow to extract from a bad position. Thus, it's easy to overextend.
- Other players are still learning how to deal with those fast torpedoes.Their avoidance timing is off, and they don't weigh the damage properly.
- Carrier players are still learning how strong their AA is. I farm planes.

I don't know much about game theory, but as a player, the Pan-Euro DDs are unlike other lines. I welcome the variety.

@Kestrel_Falcon, I'm curious which Pan-Euro DDs you found to be vulnerable to carrier strikes.

Edited by imaginary_b

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4 hours ago, Kestrel_Falcon said:

The least they could have done is introduce Saab Rb-08 (AShM) only two rounds of missiles against BB/CL/CA. Yes, a consumable missile slot.

I've advocated for missiles that homed in on active radar for a couple of years now; not really seeing any results tho!

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I created a training room using three different Captain AA builds on the Ostergotland.  Modules slots 3 and 6 were equipped using AAGM 1 and AAM 2.  I used Midway bot at a high skill level. I don't know if the bot had modules equipped for this test. See below for results. Note how the AA damage decreased as I removed an AA specific skill in matches 2 and 3.  From what I gather Match 2 seems to be the sweet spot. I stumbled on something unique to using MAAF along with activating DAAF II the continuous damage shows up red numbers, unlike normal mode.  This explains the high AA damage numbers during match 1.  But is it worth it in random matches?

Match 1 BFT-AFT-MAAF Mod 3-6.png

Match 1 detail report.png

Match 2 BFT-AFT Mod 3-6.png

Match 2 detail report.png

Match 3 BFT Mod 3-6.png

Match 3 detail report BFT mod 3-6.png

Capt Skill AFT.png

Edited by Kestrel_Falcon

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11 hours ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

To torp more consistently, but sadly their engineers were replaced with sorority girls, resulting in pillow-like damage.

They strike me as the new torp boat line, sorta kinda.

I oddly enjoy the torpedoes... you can do a lot of surprise stealth torping with them and give people a real heart attack. In Visby once on Solomon Islands, I attempted to get some parting torps on a Giulio Cesare that was most of the way into his turn steaming back to his side of the center channel. Totally missed him, but landed four torps on a Karlsruhe who popped out southbound from the north island, fully broadside, sailed right into them and was instantly blapped. My last Skane match something similar happened, blind-fired some torps at a bow-charging Cleveland, totally missed him, but tagged a Trento 10 km away who was just minding his own business. No kill on that one, though, but was hilarious.

Granted, you should be careful in launching your torpedoes, since if you launch them, you might hit someone, and if you hit someone with them, and they notice, they're not likely to be real happy with you.

Edited by RainbowFartingUnicorn
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I have only played Visby, but find it a decent ship. AA is ok for its tier, guns are decent though slow turning. I use its torps to herd ships so my team mates can kill them easy. Also good for capping and spotting once I have killed close by DD's.

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The purpose of the Pan-Euro destroyers is exactly like the French destroyers:  search and destroy other destroyers.   Essentially, the Pan-Euro destroyers and destroyers of destroyers (pun-intended).  

Personally, I have played Visby and Smaland, and I enjoy them both a lot.   The Visby is a bit more difficult to handle, but she is excellent as a gun boat.  Though I say "gun boat", all Pan-Euro DDs are also great torpedo boats, with long range torps that move like hell, and reload quickly than your grandma's shotgun.  

 

Anyone who is confused on how to play the Pan-Euro DDs need to understand that they are like light cruisers:  they have no smoke, hence you need to rely on concealment, speed, and the advantage of surprise to your favor. 

2020-03-19 (1).png

2020-03-19 (2).png

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So far they have an extremely high skill level.

Hard to get a handle on them with the pandemic forcing everyone to stay at home. That has brought out multiple carrier matches.

The tier 6 and 7 can kite away and gunboat, except their speed doesn't allow for good dodging.

Their torpedoes are easy to dodge from 9 km away.

The ability to stealth torp is good, but I find enemy ships have a CV or dd scouting and out spotting.

The tier 8 is huge and with a gun arrangement the prevents a good kiting angle.

.....

They need a little better stealth or 5 it's more speed.

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On 3/19/2020 at 9:10 PM, Ciryandil said:

The purpose of the Pan-Euro destroyers is exactly like the French destroyers:  search and destroy other destroyers.   Essentially, the Pan-Euro destroyers and destroyers of destroyers (pun-intended).  

Personally, I have played Visby and Smaland, and I enjoy them both a lot.   The Visby is a bit more difficult to handle, but she is excellent as a gun boat.  Though I say "gun boat", all Pan-Euro DDs are also great torpedo boats, with long range torps that move like hell, and reload quickly than your grandma's shotgun.  

 

Anyone who is confused on how to play the Pan-Euro DDs need to understand that they are like light cruisers:  they have no smoke, hence you need to rely on concealment, speed, and the advantage of surprise to your favor. 

2020-03-19 (1).png

2020-03-19 (2).png

rely on speed, ehh? AFAIK the 2mill fxp T10 is literally the only one of them that isn't a floating turd. 35kts base speed is hilariously slow for a DD that can't disengage. The only way you'll do anything in these DDs is if you're lucky enough to have enemy BBs pushing into you. Torps look great on paper, but they do not translate into the game.

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2 hours ago, BattlecruiserOperational said:

rely on speed, ehh? AFAIK the 2mill fxp T10 is literally the only one of them that isn't a floating turd. 35kts base speed is hilariously slow for a DD that can't disengage. The only way you'll do anything in these DDs is if you're lucky enough to have enemy BBs pushing into you. Torps look great on paper, but they do not translate into the game.

ThE oNlY wAY YoU'lL oD aNYthInG iN ThEse dDS iS If yOU're lUkCy eNOugH tO HaVE eNeMy bBs PUshINg InTo yOu.

 

Bro.....

You do not need to have BBS push into you.  You can stealth torp at them because the concealment is great on Pan-Euro DDs.  Europeon torpedoes ar ethe fastest in the whole game.

 Moreover,  the Pan-Euro DDs are excellent destroyer killers and can be "little Dreadnoughts" with their good heals. 

2020-04-02 (1).png

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Get you disciplinary penalties because your torpedoes are so long ranged malicious scum regularly steer into them on purpose just to turn you pink.

Seriously, torpedo friendly fire warnings need to have higher and higher hit number thresholds with distance. Any idiot being hit at 8+km by friendly torps has a better than even chance of doing it on purpose.

Edited by Guardian54

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3 hours ago, Ciryandil said:

ThE oNlY wAY YoU'lL oD aNYthInG iN ThEse dDS iS If yOU're lUkCy eNOugH tO HaVE eNeMy bBs PUshINg InTo yOu.

 

Bro.....

You do not need to have BBS push into you.  You can stealth torp at them because the concealment is great on Pan-Euro DDs.  Europeon torpedoes ar ethe fastest in the whole game.

 Moreover,  the Pan-Euro DDs are excellent destroyer killers and can be "little Dreadnoughts" with their good heals. 

2020-04-02 (1).png

you keep showing off those games like they're supposed to be impressive. I do 50k with 2 shima torp hits and have to work 1/10th as hard. The line is bad, move along.

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2 hours ago, Guardian54 said:

Get you disciplinary penalties because your torpedoes are so long ranged malicious scum regularly steer into them on purpose just to turn you pink.

I've torpedoed teammates, but it's usually a long time after launching because the battle changed while my torpedoes were dog-paddling across the map.
In Swedish DDs, I'm out in front and I launch towards the opposing team, i.e. away from my own. Of the many challenges in this new line, teamkilling is not one of them.

1) These Swedish Fish do 76 knots. How are you able to misread the next 30 seconds so badly? For that matter, how are you able to fire at your own teammates without it being painfully obvious that you're trying for a team kill? I thought the First Rule of teamkilling is "plausible deniability."

2) How are your teammates able to react so quickly to your torpedoes, and jump into the path? Their skill far exceeds mine. I definitely want these players on my team.

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On 4/8/2020 at 5:41 PM, imaginary_b said:

1) These Swedish Fish do 76 knots. How are you able to misread the next 30 seconds so badly? For that matter, how are you able to fire at your own teammates without it being painfully obvious that you're trying for a team kill? I thought the First Rule of teamkilling is "plausible deniability."

2) How are your teammates able to react so quickly to your torpedoes, and jump into the path? Their skill far exceeds mine. I definitely want these players on my team.

1. An enemy Bellerophon rushed up the middle in Solomon Islands and I fired going for a max range minus 1 km intercept. The Tatra's torps don't go that fast IIRC.

2.A Chester decided to try to turn to rush down mid after someone else's torps got the Bellerophon, and ate my two fish somehow when he was on a path to pass like 500m from the dead Bellerophon. The Chester didn't die. In fact he seemed to only take like 4-5K damage from both torps, and it wasn't from damage reflecting back on me cutting his damage taken either. Euro torps are pretty pathetic in alpha...

Edited by Guardian54

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On 4/8/2020 at 2:29 PM, BattlecruiserOperational said:

you keep showing off those games like they're supposed to be impressive. I do 50k with 2 shima torp hits and have to work 1/10th as hard. The line is bad, move along.

Why not show off the games that I have been having in my Pan-DDs?  YOU certainly have made it clear that you do not like the ship line.  That is your opinion.

 But maybe other captains will look at my battle results and judge for themselves if Pan-Euro DDs are worth a try.  By posting my battle results, the images can speak for themselves. 

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My first game in Ostergotland was a 133k damage Solo Warrior win.  In the 9 games since I am averaging 65k damage, with a 15% hit rate on the torps.  Yes, the sample size is small, but I've seen nothing so far to indicate that is not a sustainable performance level.  Visby and Vasteras are the only ships in the line that I have played and would possibly consider gunboats.  The line from t7 up is definitely torp first, and torp often.  When I play I focus on spotting and torpedoes either for hits or area denial.  I get almost as many torp hits on ships I wasn't aiming at as on those I was; it is almost comical at times.  The torps are fast enough generally that it is pretty difficult to torp a teammate unless you really screw the pooch.  That said I never fire if there is even a chance of hitting a friendly.  Concealment is decent; the lack of smoke would be less of a challenge if they had a few more knots of speed.  35kts base is a bit low IMO for a smokeless DD line; I would prefer they sat at around 38kts, but it is manageable.  I generally ignore the guns unless I am in a very favorable position; i.e. behind an island or facing an enemy DD where I know I can afford to trade.  The dpm just isn't that good.  Enemy gunboats will ruin your day in a hurry; the IJN torp DDs are the only ones you can reliably bully with your guns.  The rest comes down to individual skill and luck in the moment.

They don't have the huge alpha potential of other DD lines, instead relying on stacking DoTs and repeated hits.  With the short cooldown on the torps you can really tax the enemy's DCP.  Getting another flood after they burn the DCP is devastating; if you are feeling cheeky you can try to start a fire too.  This line seems to get stronger as the game goes on; they reward patience, positioning, and persistence as well as the ability to read the enemy and predict his movements and reactions.  Not everyone's cup of tea I'm sure, but I am finding them an interesting challenge in a CV-heavy meta. YMMV.

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I think I might suck at this game.

Because i can´t figure out this dd line.

Either I can´t play or they realy suck.

The torps have no power, the guns are weak, no smoke..... I just cruise around untill the game is over.

They feel like playing DayZ where you just run around for hours, but her you navigate around the map looking at islands. and then it is time for a new "match"

Ok I will play some russian or japs dd now. They are fun.

Europe dd need a edge so they are fun to play.

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