Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
ESX

RANKED: Sorry WG, the juice is not worth the squeez!

41 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

419
[SPQR_]
Beta Testers
175 posts
9,029 battles

When you randomize players with skills ranging from completely incompetent to pro, your MM creates matches from no hope to slaughter.  Regardless of what your company thinks, this is not logical or rational.  It is creating large win/loss swings anywhere from 3-15 games in a row either way.  These types of swings are not common in a 50%/50% environment.  Example:  to get a coin to land on heads 10x in a row would calculate as, 1/2 to the 10th power.  Hence you would have to flip the coin, (in trials of 10 flips each), 1024 times to get one streak of 10 heads in a row.  Your ranked battles soon become way more stress than fun.  Maybe you can figure it out.  Until then you should double the rewards to make it worth it to many players, and compensate them for their time and frustration.  Instead of the uninspiring answer of, just don't play them, it would be better to just offer ranked, and do it right.

On a side note, get your game breaking easy mode CV's out of ranked.  They break important game mechanics like concealment, skill play, strategy, and tactics.  If you don't know what I am talking about WG, play your own game and find out.  CV's have WAY too much influence in ranked, it is pathetic you think it is ok for them to be included.

  • Cool 17
  • Funny 1
  • Boring 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
419
[SPQR_]
Beta Testers
175 posts
9,029 battles

First and IBTL (troll denying tactics)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
135
[HKC]
Members
554 posts

Had Smolensk player  play the edge of the map in open water.   As the red DD and BB closed in on him he was explaining he was a team player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,162
[PHASE]
Members
6,095 posts
19,265 battles

Imagine a cement mixer....that is continuously being fed dry cement and water. The irrevocable rank at 12 traps players and forces them into lower tier play..... they are the ingredients. The formula for mixing them this is:

7 advance, 6 fall back and one stays neutral.  As long as players "cement" are added to the mixer players will rank out. Statistically it's a decent system.

Without the current system no one would rank out or advance….(yes I know good players would) It's a system that has a 57% succeed or stay neutral and 43% fail rate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
419
[SPQR_]
Beta Testers
175 posts
9,029 battles
8 minutes ago, Waxing_Gibbous said:

Imagine a cement mixer....that is continuously being fed dry cement and water. The irrevocable rank at 12 traps players and forces them into lower tier play..... they are the ingredients. The formula for mixing them this is:

7 advance, 6 fall back and one stays neutral.  As long as players "cement" are added to the mixer players will rank out. Statistically it's a decent system.

Without the current system no one would rank out or advance….(yes I know good players would) It's a system that has a 57% succeed or stay neutral and 43% fail rate.

Based on this, I wonder if ranked becomes more stable after the first few weeks?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
423
[O_O]
Members
500 posts

I played a game last night where my Salem and Kremlin had no camo...

We won 7-0 in 9 minutes...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
296
[NNC]
Members
659 posts
5,949 battles
2 minutes ago, ESX said:

Based on this, I wonder if ranked becomes more stable after the first few weeks?

It does. You have fewer great players in the lower brackets and more in the highest one that has population at the time. Then real late in the season it starts to smooth out again at the 5-2 area as most of the super skilled players rank out.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,658 posts
14,365 battles

Why would they change or fix it? It's working as intended, to keep you playing as long as possible so that you drain your flags and have to purchase more flags or prem time. 

People assume that Free to play games have an even playing field. They don't. Instead, they work more like online casinos, rewarding you when you spend....  

Edited by STINKWEED_
  • Cool 2
  • Boring 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,162
[PHASE]
Members
6,095 posts
19,265 battles
4 minutes ago, ESX said:

Based on this, I wonder if ranked becomes more stable after the first few weeks?

Normally no, it becomes much harder. During the first week or two of ranked most like skilled players move through the system and rank out quickly. The games are stable, competitive.

As ranked progresses, several weeks in the game is flooded with horrifically bad players that get trapped by the irrevocable 12 ceiling and recycled over and over like a turd that won't flush no matter how many games or flushes you try...….

In any given 6-10 bracket game right now you have 4-6 42% players that simply bounce into the 10 bracket for a game or two and back to 11..

 

Play a random game right now, after the game look to see how many players are 10-12. They are trapped by their own skill level and the irrevocable rank. Here is one form this morning, 10 of 18 players that have played ranked are in this 10-12 level spin cycle. They can't progress and they can't fall back, they provide fresh meat for players that can progress.

7WvRqZW.png

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
436
[Y0L0W]
Members
1,067 posts
38,411 battles

Without speculations, analogies and examples.

This season have been made in line with current state of randoms. 

What does it means? It means that we have 3 big issues, which destroys fun of this game mode. 

1. Replacement of seasoned players with newbies, who neither have working knowledge of game mechanics neither experience of team-oriented competitive matches. Not a big difference from previous seasons but trend is going on, since lots of old timers drop out from game. Low quality of teams brings steam-rolls like in randoms therefore randomizing match outcome.

2. CV. No explanation needed really, unless you was in the WG-tested submarine and missed all the hype. Those are fun-sucking, reason-denying, nologic-promoting, salt-harvesting machines aka CV randomize your chance of winning thus keeping you in loop of ranking indefinitely more. Unless you choose to play CV-proof ships (Grozovoi, Wooster and other strong AA ships) and know how to work with them. Which doesn't help much really. And since CV are allowed and present in queue most of the time, matches without DD are now happens regularly.

3. Failing score system heavily based on farming damage promoting parasite type of ships like Smolensk, Thunderer and Conqueror to be to-go choice of bad players to save star thus moving up the ranks by abusing save star mechanics. Therefore if you want to rank out in ship that you like, - it will likely take much more time. They are not interested in helping team win - the goal is save the star and/or allow to be carried.

 

And out of this 3 ingredients we've got really bad ranked season

Edited by SlartiBartFastE2
  • Cool 5
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,315
[--K--]
Members
6,356 posts
14,004 battles

Roughly speaking, a better than average player should increase his team's winning chance by 14%. Conversely, a less than average player hurts his teams winning percentages by 14% over a large sample size. (like I said, very rough, this goes up and down based on how good a player is) 

Fact of the matter is, some players are hugely influencing the match as soon as they hit the battle button. Now, some blame it on luck and teams, but others realize that their contribution does influence a match outcome. Yeah, some games are going to be stacked one way or another, but it's the majority of the games that aren't where a player influences the battle. 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,880
Members
3,656 posts
15,583 battles
12 minutes ago, ESX said:

Based on this, I wonder if ranked becomes more stable after the first few weeks?

No.  We don't have a random distribution of "skill" in the game....

 

8 minutes ago, Sou1forge said:

It does. You have fewer great players in the lower brackets and more in the highest one that has population at the time. Then real late in the season it starts to smooth out again at the 5-2 area as most of the super skilled players rank out.

No.  Can't.....  Since this is a Mature, Brown Ocean MMO now, we have "skill holes" since Update 8.0 and the PR events......and, TBH, the holes stated to develop at the Cruiser Line Split and Radar/HE Spam meta's.  Especially, Radar when the better players saw the opportunity to take tier 7 radar ships into tier 5 matches......farming to the max.  I know of several new players that left then.  The gaming friends I knew from other games left at 8.0.  The PR event cause several other people I know in the game to "retire" and not play but once or twice a week.  I've retired since as well.  None of us have spent a "real penny" on the game since the CLS and the Radar scourge (the end of traditional DD play...)

Remember, it takes a balance of skill in the existing population to make a non-skill based arcade MM to even work............otherwise, stomp after stomp after stomp occurs and that, further drives off new and average players this game needs to remain viable....   This game, I have heard,  has been removed from the e-Sports clubs "active game list" locally and is no longer being promoted........and, ^^^ is the reason........  You can not believe the number of "older players" that visit e-Sports meetings across the US; and, Colleges/Universities now have funded "e-Sports" programs !  Google "NACE" and take a look at what that organization is sponsoring for competition.........  And, the University programs also were a place to demo games like this one.............alas, no longer.  

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
419
[SPQR_]
Beta Testers
175 posts
9,029 battles
5 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Roughly speaking, a better than average player should increase his team's winning chance by 14%. Conversely, a less than average player hurts his teams winning percentages by 14% over a large sample size. (like I said, very rough, this goes up and down based on how good a player is) 

Fact of the matter is, some players are hugely influencing the match as soon as they hit the battle button. Now, some blame it on luck and teams, but others realize that their contribution does influence a match outcome. Yeah, some games are going to be stacked one way or another, but it's the majority of the games that aren't where a player influences the battle. 

A good player can help himself tremendously I agree.  But then you add in the mix of CV's and teams that start falling apart in the first few minutes, like losing one or two DD's on your team, then it starts to become just a frustrating experience.  One or two games like this is no big deal, but getting multiple games like this is where it starts to take its toll. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,880
Members
3,656 posts
15,583 battles
3 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Roughly speaking, a better than average player should increase his team's winning chance by 14%. Conversely, a less than average player hurts his teams winning percentages by 14% over a large sample size. (like I said, very rough, this goes up and down based on how good a player is) 

Fact of the matter is, some players are hugely influencing the match as soon as they hit the battle button. Now, some blame it on luck and teams, but others realize that their contribution does influence a match outcome. Yeah, some games are going to be stacked one way or another, but it's the majority of the games that aren't where a player influences the battle. 

You Sir, are correct.   Cascading errors.  Good grief !   In ranked, at tier 10 now, players whom literally did not even know how to steer or even fight their ships were playing !!!  And the kicker, many of those whom I ran into, died first and yet............latched onto a winning streak for over a dozen games and made it to below 10 with damage averages less that a 1,000........  And, this is quality how??? 

There needs to be a minimum number of games played (at least) per tier in ranked to stop antics I've described....  Otherwise, what is the point of "tiers of play" if you can start at 10......????  Gosh, what a mess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,271
[--K--]
[--K--]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
2,287 posts
9,171 battles

I ranked out during season 12, and since then have come a long way.  I've very casually played and have made rank 9 with little effort for this season.  That being said, OP's feelings are spot on for most.  The are two kinds of common ranked players:

1.  Extremely good players who have the game sense and experience to carry most situations

2.  The very bottom-of-the-barrel quality players who I question if they are even sentient beings

The latter of course, is much more common because they will *never* get into a remotely capable clan because they are bad and probably know it to some degree too so they go to ranked as their only source of steel.  Really, if you want steel play CB.  After my experience with my first couple very small clans, it doesn't matter if you aren't the best:  All you need to do is have a inkling of teamwork amongst even some fairly meh players statistically and you can go somewhere.

Ranked is not worth it.  At best, treat it as something that is worth almost nothing, and a place to learn about oneself in the art of the carry.  At worst, its a mode that makes CV even *stronger*, piled with the worst players imaginable that nobody with any amount of self-worth will put up with unless you're the 1% that can carry even an entire sack of turds.  

For the other 99%, I think its best we just step in front of a train for fun and see if we can dodge it as its coming as a better means of entertainment.  

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1
  • Angry 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,210
[FOXEH]
Beta Testers
13,227 posts
18,420 battles
37 minutes ago, ESX said:

Based on this, I wonder if ranked becomes more stable after the first few weeks?

Actually it becomes less stable as the better players rank out or quit upon reaching a rank they're happy with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,507
[ARGSY]
Members
17,328 posts
12,042 battles

I gave it one go, because I have two stars from the previous season and I figured I might as well claim the lowest-tier prize. Flag up the Salem, which I spent coal on to have something affordable to bring to events like this, and let's go to town. 

Well, we lost, and I could sort of see it coming, and I was the last to die. On the other hand, I did walk away from it with two kills, a First Blood, a High Caliber and 2.4 million and change in potential damage. Finished one directive task, accomplished another straight up, and walked away feeling pretty good about it. Yes, there were carriers. So Freaking What?

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
419
[SPQR_]
Beta Testers
175 posts
9,029 battles
5 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I gave it one go, because I have two stars from the previous season and I figured I might as well claim the lowest-tier prize. Flag up the Salem, which I spent coal on to have something affordable to bring to events like this, and let's go to town. 

Well, we lost, and I could sort of see it coming, and I was the last to die. On the other hand, I did walk away from it with two kills, a First Blood, a High Caliber and 2.4 million and change in potential damage. Finished one directive task, accomplished another straight up, and walked away feeling pretty good about it. Yes, there were carriers. So Freaking What?

Let us know how you feel after about 100 battles.

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,162
[PHASE]
Members
6,095 posts
19,265 battles
11 minutes ago, CaliburxZero said:

I ranked out during season 12, and since then have come a long way.  I've very casually played and have made rank 9 with little effort for this season.  That being said, OP's feelings are spot on for most.  The are two kinds of common ranked players:

1.  Extremely good players who have the game sense and experience to carry most situations

2.  The very bottom-of-the-barrel quality players who I question if they are even sentient beings

The latter of course, is much more common because they will *never* get into a remotely capable clan because they are bad and probably know it to some degree too so they go to ranked as their only source of steel.  Really, if you want steel play CB.  After my experience with my first couple very small clans, it doesn't matter if you aren't the best:  All you need to do is have a inkling of teamwork amongst even some fairly meh players statistically and you can go somewhere.

Ranked is not worth it.  At best, treat it as something that is worth almost nothing, and a place to learn about oneself in the art of the carry.  At worst, its a mode that makes CV even *stronger*, piled with the worst players imaginable that nobody with any amount of self-worth will put up with unless you're the 1% that can carry even an entire sack of turds.  

For the other 99%, I think its best we just step in front of a train for fun and see if we can dodge it as its coming as a better means of entertainment.  

I would add that is does provide an alternative to randoms and can be very good for farming XP or legendary upgrades.

I am not a fan of the farming aspect but I do have two new LU's that I wouldn't have and close to two more.

 

I view ranked like Vegas and gambling. Not the MM aspect of it but the effect of it. Everyone goes to Vegas and ranked to win. So when you do it is expected, a relief. When you lose it's miserable. The lows are lower than the highs are high. I have at least a dozen tweaks to ranked play as do most people but at a bare minimum it is a nice change of pace than playing randoms 24/7.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
436
[Y0L0W]
Members
1,067 posts
38,411 battles
3 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Well, we lost, and I could sort of see it coming, and I was the last to die. On the other hand, I did walk away from it with two kills, a First Blood, a High Caliber and 2.4 million and change in potential damage. Finished one directive task, accomplished another straight up, and walked away feeling pretty good about it. Yes, there were carriers. So Freaking What?

This freaking that. 

See it coming: it's really not a game - more like roll of dice. Will I get good CV? Good (not rushing and dying in first minute) team? Is my ship viable in this match composition?

Walked away: can't call game mode successful when most of server population just walks away

 

really those messages not about drama, - I'm simply into presenting facts straight, calling white white and black black.

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,507
[ARGSY]
Members
17,328 posts
12,042 battles

I must admit, I would pay more attention to Ranked if I wasn't trying to do so many other things in other modes at other tiers. It's just the LEAST interesting thing to me at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,315
[--K--]
Members
6,356 posts
14,004 battles
43 minutes ago, ESX said:

A good player can help himself tremendously I agree. 

And bad players can hurt themselves tremendously. 

I used to look at all the things I thought were making me lose, teams, mm, etc. When I realized the impacts I was putting on the matches, and started to correct them, I started to win in ranked. 

I stopped blaming the teams and started blaming myself. I can't affect the teams very much, but I can affect my play in each match and when I started to sharpen my play, I started winning more. My first real season in ranked, I went to rank 4 with 303 battles I couldn't get out of rank 5 till the last day. I took everything I just told you above and I went from that kind of a player to a player that 2 seasons ago, only 11 people ranked out with fewer games than me. Stop dwelling on everyone else and start dwelling on yourself and see how you can get better. Pretty much every game I think about what I did well, what I did wrong and how I could have changed my play to help my team more. And I'll be honest, sometimes team play involves being seemingly selfish. 

Edited by Ducky_shot
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
423
[O_O]
Members
500 posts

Nothing is more frustrating than holding off their capping in a Des Moines at 20k hp tanking shells while a full hp Ohio and Kremlin sit behind me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×