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What if we can see during battle a CV's plane availability

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It's a myth that CVs have infinite planes.  We know that.

It's a persistent perception among non-CV players that planes keep coming no matter how many are shot down.  I have personally shot down 30+ planes per game and it didn't seem to make a difference.  And I checked, no more than 5 of those were fighters.

I think this disconnect is because non-CV players cannot gauge the level of plane losses.  Since we don't play CV ourselves, we don't really know how many planes each CV starts out with, and what exactly is its plane regen rate.

On a normal ship, if it's in sight, we can see its health.  Even when the Repair Party kicks in, we can still see clearly how hurt it is.  This is a feedback; we can either decide to press on and "kill off this dying ship," or retreat because "that ship has 1/2 HP left and it's repairing."

For a CV, most of the times we can't see it.  And if we do, its HP is mostly meaningless in the current meta.  What matters more is, "how many planes it can send up now."  Seeing this availability may spur an AA cruiser to keep driving towards the the attacking squadrons, because "we are shooting 'em down faster than it can regen."  Or a DD may decide to continue playing defensively even 10 minutes into the game, because "that CV still can send up full squadron of rocket planes."

In short, a CV's initial plane load is analogous to a normal ship's HP.  Its plane regen rate is analogous to a ship's repair party.  Seeing the CV's plane availability at a given moment is as helpful as knowing the HP of that Bismarck 13 km away.

 

 

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You can see how many planes/flights are in the attack but people don't look.

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Don't know if that would fly.....stretching it a bit further would be the desire to know if the ( insert ship type here ) has used all its consumables ….is the DD out of smoke ?....does the BB have anymore heals...….etc.

Other than the Langley , you cannot " see " inside the carrier to actually know whats what for planes.

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Partly you’ve hit the nail on the head. Many, but not all, of the most vocal CV critics DON’T play carriers. They literally have no idea beyond ‘it ruins the game for me.’

I’m saying carriers are balanced or perfect, far from it, but yeah, understanding the enemy means something, and is likely why I don’t seem to get bothered by carriers as much as others seem to.

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For the most part, it's not the CV strike capacity that is game-breaking.  IMO it is the constant spotting ability of the CV that is the issue.  CV alpha strike capacity is lower than it once was, the issue is that a CV is the god class, in that it can spot you at will and enable the enemy fleet to counter your every move.  Try to disengage from a flank, sorry CV spotting; try to ambush that DD, sorry CV spotting, CV's limit a lot of strategic play, which is why they are over powered and in the eyes of many a detriment to the game.  

And I disagree with your assessment that CV's are in some form balanced because they are limited to proper plane management.  The fact that planes can regen imo is ludicrous.  The one thing that was good during the RTS meta was that a CV could be de-planed if they played poorly, now you just need to switch to a different plane type and allow the regen to cycle.  That and the fact that AA is a joke means that even partial squadrons can strike.  

And let's be honest if planes can regen, then it's about time that AA mounts on ships should be able to be repaired and regen.  CV's not only maintain but can gain in strength the longer the match progresses.  Most ships will have AA striped from their hulls late in matches, coupled with lower numbers of ships that can provide AA further reinforces the potency that CV's have over the other classes of ships.

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25 minutes ago, _Isamu_ said:

For the most part, it's not the CV strike capacity that is game-breaking.  IMO it is the constant spotting ability of the CV that is the issue.  CV alpha strike capacity is lower than it once was, the issue is that a CV is the god class, in that it can spot you at will and enable the enemy fleet to counter your every move.  Try to disengage from a flank, sorry CV spotting; try to ambush that DD, sorry CV spotting, CV's limit a lot of strategic play, which is why they are over powered and in the eyes of many a detriment to the game.  

And I disagree with your assessment that CV's are in some form balanced because they are limited to proper plane management.  The fact that planes can regen imo is ludicrous.  The one thing that was good during the RTS meta was that a CV could be de-planed if they played poorly, now you just need to switch to a different plane type and allow the regen to cycle.  That and the fact that AA is a joke means that even partial squadrons can strike.  

And let's be honest if planes can regen, then it's about time that AA mounts on ships should be able to be repaired and regen.  CV's not only maintain but can gain in strength the longer the match progresses.  Most ships will have AA striped from their hulls late in matches, coupled with lower numbers of ships that can provide AA further reinforces the potency that CV's have over the other classes of ships.

CV's start with a limited amount of planes, regen is simply bringing up planes from the hanger and if you look at the regen rates the number of planes is limited to pretty much what they carried.

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4 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

if you look at the regen rates the number of planes is limited to pretty much what they carried.

the shokaku (which historically carried 72 aircraft including 27 dive bombers, 27 torpedo bombers, and zero rocket planes) can lose somewhere in the neighborhood of 90 bombers during a match, plus 61 or more fighters

 

You have a very expansive definition of "pretty much".

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Lets not forget in real life most destroyers only carried one round of torpedoes in their tubes, while WoW DD's have unlimited torpedoes. If your going demand realistic aircraft load outs, why not limit the torpedoes on DDs.

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31 minutes ago, WernerHerzdog said:

the shokaku (which historically carried 72 aircraft including 27 dive bombers, 27 torpedo bombers, and zero rocket planes) can lose somewhere in the neighborhood of 90 bombers during a match, plus 61 or more fighters

 

You have a very expansive definition of "pretty much".

Actually in theory it is 104 but there is travel time in between attacks so the reality is much less and will be much closer to the historical loadouts.

Edited by BrushWolf

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Honestly I think this will enrage the playerbase even further tbh given the current state of plane availability and AA.

Something along the lines of "omg I shot down 50 planes but the game says he still has some!"

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54 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Honestly I think this will enrage the playerbase even further tbh given the current state of plane availability and AA.

Something along the lines of "omg I shot down 50 planes but the game says he still has some!"

We already see those threads as they tend to forget that fighters do not count towards the CV's hanger capacity.

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2 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

Actually in theory it is 104 but there is travel time in between attacks so the reality is much less and will be much closer to the historical loadouts.

I know it is more if all the planes are always regenerating, "somewhere in the neighborhood of 90" was a guess at how many planes it can lose in practice given that it takes some time to start regeneration on all three types.

Even if you massively lowball it and say it has 70 bombers, that's twice as many planes as the actual capacity (another comparison that comes to mind is the 48 bombers on the pre rework Shokaku), and it's a Shokaku in game carrying as many bombers as the historical Shokaku carried planes.

 

Again "closer" is doing a lot of work in your last sentence.

Edited by WernerHerzdog

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4 minutes ago, WernerHerzdog said:

I know it is more if all the planes are always regenerating, "somewhere in the neighborhood of 90" was a guess at how many planes it can lose in practice given that it takes some time to start regeneration on all three types.

Even if you massively lowball it and say it has 70 bombers, that's twice as many planes as the actual capacity (another comparison that comes to mind is the 48 bombers on the pre rework Shokaku), and it's a Shokaku in game carrying as many bombers as the historical Shokaku carried planes.

 

Again "closer" is doing a lot of work in your last sentence.

I didn't run numbers but closer to the 72 she actually carried when time in between losses is factored in.

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4 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

You can see how many planes/flights are in the attack but people don't look.

Is it just me that often can't see this? Like... half the time, the squad strength is just gone. It's weird.

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That said, on the topic for the thread, I feel it'd make sense if you can see the friendly CV's, but not so much the red's.

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It doesnt matter because the cvs have unlimited planes anyway, and no matter how many you shoot down they get three chances to attack you per run.

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9 hours ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Is it just me that often can't see this? Like... half the time, the squad strength is just gone. It's weird.

Nah, that's a very old bug that has been around since even RTS I believe.

As is usual WG doesn't particularly care about that. There are issues with CVs that have been reported multiple times since 0.8.0.

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People seem to forget there are currently two, technically three, forms of altitude in this game. There will eventually be two? Three? Forms of depth too. Why would I fly into flak when I could either go over or under it? Why can't I abort an attack? There are a lot of matters to address and to attempt to simplify to match the arcade-nature of this game.

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13 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

CV's start with a limited amount of planes, regen is simply bringing up planes from the hanger and if you look at the regen rates the number of planes is limited to pretty much what they carried.

 

10 hours ago, WernerHerzdog said:

I know it is more if all the planes are always regenerating, "somewhere in the neighborhood of 90" was a guess at how many planes it can lose in practice given that it takes some time to start regeneration on all three types.

Even if you massively lowball it and say it has 70 bombers, that's twice as many planes as the actual capacity (another comparison that comes to mind is the 48 bombers on the pre rework Shokaku), and it's a Shokaku in game carrying as many bombers as the historical Shokaku carried planes.

 

Again "closer" is doing a lot of work in your last sentence.

 

10 hours ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Is it just me that often can't see this? Like... half the time, the squad strength is just gone. It's weird.

 

8 hours ago, monpetitloup said:

It doesnt matter because the cvs have unlimited planes anyway, and no matter how many you shoot down they get three chances to attack you per run.

 

As has been stated:  the CV does not have 'Unlimited' planes. It has a plane regeneration rate. Meaning one plane is restored every so many seconds.

This also mean that the CV will reach a point where they are not putting up full squadrons. Maybe out of a flight of originally 9 planes, the CV can only put up 7. While yes, that can still mean three possible attacks, it also means that, should all the planes survive, that final attack is only 1 aircraft. But not all planes survive the first pass. Maybe 2 get shot own. So now instead of 7 attacking planes, you have 5. 3 in the first attack, and now 2 in a second possible attack.

This can mean by the end of a match, the CV might only be putting up a few planes. But now instead of a possible 3 attacks, its down to only 1, but with perhaps 1 or 2 aircraft, both of which may not survive the attack depending on the target.

 

To me, 'Unlimited' would mean the CV is consistently putting up full flights of aircraft throughout the entire battle, despite losses. Every time a CV sends up a torpedo squadron, Bomber squadron, or attack squadron, it always take-off with a full flight. That is not what is happening in the game currently. Currently, you lose an entire flight of torpedo bombers, you might only have 1 - 3 ready to go back at the CV.

So no, the idea of 'Unlimited' aircraft for a CV is a myth. In the hands of a skill CV captain it may feel like the planes are 'unlimited', but for the average CV captain they are not.

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14 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

 

 

 

 

As has been stated:  the CV does not have 'Unlimited' planes. It has a plane regeneration rate. Meaning one plane is restored every so many seconds.

This also mean that the CV will reach a point where they are not putting up full squadrons. Maybe out of a flight of originally 9 planes, the CV can only put up 7. While yes, that can still mean three possible attacks, it also means that, should all the planes survive, that final attack is only 1 aircraft. But not all planes survive the first pass. Maybe 2 get shot own. So now instead of 7 attacking planes, you have 5. 3 in the first attack, and now 2 in a second possible attack.

This can mean by the end of a match, the CV might only be putting up a few planes. But now instead of a possible 3 attacks, its down to only 1, but with perhaps 1 or 2 aircraft, both of which may not survive the attack depending on the target.

 

To me, 'Unlimited' would mean the CV is consistently putting up full flights of aircraft throughout the entire battle, despite losses. Every time a CV sends up a torpedo squadron, Bomber squadron, or attack squadron, it always take-off with a full flight. That is not what is happening in the game currently. Currently, you lose an entire flight of torpedo bombers, you might only have 1 - 3 ready to go back at the CV.

So no, the idea of 'Unlimited' aircraft for a CV is a myth. In the hands of a skill CV captain it may feel like the planes are 'unlimited', but for the average CV captain they are not.

Cvs have unlimited planes. They never run out.

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2 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

Cvs have unlimited planes. They never run out.

Quote

To me, 'Unlimited' would mean the CV is consistently putting up full flights of aircraft throughout the entire battle, despite losses. Every time a CV sends up a torpedo squadron, Bomber squadron, or attack squadron, it always take-off with a full flight. That is not what is happening in the game currently. Currently, you lose an entire flight of torpedo bombers, you might only have 1 - 3 ready to go back at the CV.

So no, the idea of 'Unlimited' aircraft for a CV is a myth. In the hands of a skill CV captain it may feel like the planes are 'unlimited', but for the average CV captain they are not.

reading is fundamental.

Edited by Lord_Slayer

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1 minute ago, Lord_Slayer said:

reading is fundamental.

Cvs have unlimited planes. They never run out.

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When you hover your mouse over the hits ribbon in the top corner it gives you a breakdown of pens, overpens, bulge hits etc.

It would be nice if doing the same over the plane shot down ribbons gave you an in-game breakdown of what types you have shot down.

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53 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

To me, 'Unlimited' would mean the CV is consistently putting up full flights of aircraft throughout the entire battle, despite losses.

That's only one way to look at it.  Another perfectly valid way to see it is from a more practical level, CVs can regenerate planes faster than they can be shot down, so they are in practice unlimited.  Even in the unlikely event you actually deplane a CV it just regens more planes...that certainly can be seen as unlimited.  Don't debate the term unlimited.  I know you think you can "win" this argument, and that must somehow mean CVs are balanced.  But that isn't actually true.  Talk about whether or not the mechanic balanced. 

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47 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

Cvs have unlimited planes. They never run out.

Stating something over and over again doesn't make it true.

 

 

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