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Kreigspelar

RN cruiser ammunition

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Forgive me if this topic has been previously covered (I am sure someone must have mentioned it - I just did not pore through all the prior posts.)

It perplexes me no end that WoW only allows RN light cruisers to have AP when historically this is completely absurd. There is a lot of material available online regarding this to back up this position such as:

6"/50 (15.2 cm) BL Mark XXIII

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_6-50_mk23.php

Ammunition

 
Type Bag
Projectile Types and Weights CPBC - 112 lbs. (50.8 kg)
HE - 112 lbs. (50.8 kg)
Bursting Charge CPBC - 3.75 lbs. (1.7 kg)
HE - about 8 lbs. (3.6 kg)
Projectile Length about 27 in (68.5 cm)
Propellant Charge 30 lbs. (13.6 kg) SC 150
32 lbs. (14.5 kg) NQFP 128 (semi-flashless)
Muzzle Velocity 2,758 fps (841 mps)
Working Pressure 20.5 tons/in2 (3,230 kg/cm2)
Approximate Barrel Life 1,100 rounds
Ammunition stowage per gun 200 rounds (see Note 3)

 

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The reason is balance.  Why are Belfast, Kutuzov, and Smolensk broken? Large quantities of medium caliber HE dpm in smoke.  They did have HE originally in testing, but let's put it this way: HE Minotaur made Smolensk look balanced and fun to play against.

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Well, to be honest they should only have the 'SAP' style CPBC as well and no pure AP. 

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14 minutes ago, mofton said:

Well, to be honest they should only have the 'SAP' style CPBC as well and no pure AP. 

So you're saying Belfast and Perth should have the line style AP vs the regular performance AP they currently have?

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3 minutes ago, thegamefilmguruman said:

So you're saying Belfast and Perth should have the line style AP vs the regular performance AP they currently have?

Well, the 'SAP' type AP of the main line doesn't reflect CPBC that well in my view, but if that is it then yes. 

RN cruisers didn't really use HE for anti-ship purposes so the 'most realistic' approach in my view would be to allow them only the CPBC/SAP type armament but modify the gameplay mechanics - historically those shells could overpen, but would like most shells start fires periodically. 

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9 hours ago, thegamefilmguruman said:

The reason is balance.  Why are Belfast, Kutuzov, and Smolensk broken? Large quantities of medium caliber HE dpm in smoke.  They did have HE originally in testing, but let's put it this way: HE Minotaur made Smolensk look balanced and fun to play against.

In reality, any ship could make smoke. Bet it funnel smoke, smoke floats, portable equipment etc. So wouldn't it be more "balanced" to allow smoke instead of the ship not having any HE?

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1 hour ago, Kreigspelar said:

In reality, any ship could make smoke. Bet it funnel smoke, smoke floats, portable equipment etc. So wouldn't it be more "balanced" to allow smoke instead of the ship not having any HE?

So in order to allow one line to have high volumes of HE spam from smoke purely for historical accuracy, you would balance it by giving all ships in the game smoke consumables?

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36 minutes ago, thegamefilmguruman said:

So in order to allow one line to have high volumes of HE spam from smoke purely for historical accuracy, you would balance it by giving all ships in the game smoke consumables?

Not to mention giving hydro and radar to many more ships in game... many seemingly illogical decisions are made for the sake of balans, comrade.

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1 hour ago, thegamefilmguruman said:

So in order to allow one line to have high volumes of HE spam from smoke purely for historical accuracy, you would balance it by giving all ships in the game smoke consumables?

Basically DD's and CL's since their actual roles warrant it, yes.

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2 hours ago, TheOssifrage said:

Not to mention giving hydro and radar to many more ships in game... many seemingly illogical decisions are made for the sake of balans, comrade.

Basically the whole concept of balance itself is flawed. Landlocked nations or those with limited strategic resources and industrial capacities couldn't compete in terms of sea power historically. Economics was and is the driving principle behind conflict on the world stage. Balance isn't part of anyone's equation once hostilities begin and attempts to offset advantages held by certain nations through treaties (such as The Washington Treaty) were doomed and discarded. Hence arms races ensued and the entire idea of balance would be an absurdity to any one in their right mind.   

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Yes, but this is a game. You HAVE to make concessions in order for there to be some measure of equality amongst different ships within the same tier. If WoWS replicated real life naval warfare history to a tee, then everyone would play the Americans. They had more destroyers of a single class than the entire Kriegsmarine.

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On 2/25/2020 at 11:18 AM, mofton said:

Well, the 'SAP' type AP of the main line doesn't reflect CPBC that well in my view, but if that is it then yes. 

RN cruisers didn't really use HE for anti-ship purposes so the 'most realistic' approach in my view would be to allow them only the CPBC/SAP type armament but modify the gameplay mechanics - historically those shells could overpen, but would like most shells start fires periodically. 

In reality, HE rounds were the least likely to cause meaningful fires (there's little on the outside of a ship that burns). AP rounds were the most likely to to cause dangerous fires by smashing and damaging equipment inside the ship.

In game, it's backwards.

Very similar to how in real life the safest thing a ship could do was go broadside, and the worst thing you could do is be end on, as you were most likely going to miss because of errors in range than in errors in deflection.

It's exactly backwards in game.

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On 2/26/2020 at 12:18 AM, mofton said:

Well, the 'SAP' type AP of the main line doesn't reflect CPBC that well in my view, but if that is it then yes. 

RN cruisers didn't really use HE for anti-ship purposes so the 'most realistic' approach in my view would be to allow them only the CPBC/SAP type armament but modify the gameplay mechanics - historically those shells could overpen, but would like most shells start fires periodically. 

As to whether RN cruisers used HE for anti-ship purpose it certainly depends on a few things. At: 

Ammunition stowage per gun

200 rounds

there may be a need to fire whatever there is to hand. And most ship to ship engagements in the time period covered by the game saw a mix of AP and HE fired by the RN. Take the Battle of the River Plate for example; at the culmination of the battle the British light cruisers Achilles and Ajax had but 20% ammunition remaining. In an action lasting 82 minutes Achilles alone had fired more than 200 broadsides. In John Campbell's book "Jutland, An Analysis of the Fighting" he provides exhaustive detail that clearly shows HE being fired by the RN in that ship to ship engagement. Yes these are but two examples and they span quite a long period of time but in combat, one makes do with what has not what one wishes they had. 

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