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MaxMcKay

Why are people ignoring HE spam/fire dmg needing rework over what little dmg a CV can do.

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Think about this for a moment.  Isn't it funny that "so" many of the same names complain about CV's, without realizing or wanting to admit they are using a broken form of damage which needs a rebalance.

Fire damage has crept up to such a degree most players hate HE spam more then the "hate" for CV's.  More and more people are playing CV's and seeing the truth of the matter that CV's aren't over powered.  Those that complain about them honestly aren't happy with needing to change a play style because a ship can counter them.  While ignoring the very fact that their ships are usually the ones that have so many advantages, Hydro, radar, stealth torp launching, and unrelenting fire dmg and HE spam.  In my and other's opinion there needs to be a flooding style rework of Fire damage.  Most ships caught in that situation are faced with the fact that they can not get out of range of the spam and will be chased and burned.  That a 3 or 4 blaze fire that a damage party is used for, is suddenly right back in the same problem.  That one shell the nicks your superstructure sets your ship for a blaze for 60 seconds, which you HAVE to let burn because if you try to save those hit points your doomed for more.  

 

Yet the people that would defend this style of play, has no issue attacking CV's because they can check some of these actions.  Which explains why they hate CV's so much.  CV's got reworked, then they got nerfed because DD players complained, then the CV's got their damage out put lowered.  No other ships has their main form of damage be able to be intercepted by a automated system, that is able to be over lapped with other ships.  The sad part of this is that instead of a real conversation on this, there will be those charming fellows that will bring forth debunked arguments that were fixed before now, yet they are still unhappy that they can't get everything they want.

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41 minutes ago, MaxMcKay said:

Which explains why they hate CV's so much.  CV's got reworked, then they got nerfed because DD  BB players complained, then the CV's got their damage out put lowered

DDs did not complain about RTS CVs... That was BBs drivers, they put the giff of a lone Yammie getting deleted...

CVs DMG were lowered because BBs didn't wanted CV drivers farming BB HP with torps... That is why Nerfs to torps and flood happened in patch 0.8.0.1 to 0.8.1

Low AA DDs are complaining and rightfully so... BBs should not be the only ship class with better AA (as a whole). But no cruisers and select DDs...

Then again, this is the fatal flaw of the rework... No matter what changes are done to AA interaction with CVs... Its not nor will it ever be, content or fair for any ship class.

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Well I would agree the CV complaining can be a bit much when people call for them to be deleted.  

But fire damage?  Yes it can suck to have your BB pounded by HE before you can back off or shoot the offender.  Or, don't approach that island without friendlies and then get mad when a red DD spots you and the red cruiser burns you.  But, just as you named other ship type advantages as radar, HE spam, stealth torps.....you forget your BB has:

1. Huge health pool

2.  Repair party (some of which can repair insane amounts)

3.  Best armor and torpedo belt

4.  Most powerful guns with the best range

5.  Secondaries that require no skill at all to use

6.  Usually among the best AA

I don't think BBs have it all that bad in WOWS.

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11 minutes ago, The_Fire_Department said:

They wont be happy until all CVs do 10k damage tops. Even then some braindead DD will still complain about spotting.

Actually it's everyone else that complains about the DD that won't spot. I don't blame them for not wanting to do it even thought the suggestion to "stay near your team" doesn't work either.

Complain about spotting- DD goes to spot and gets punished ( or has to pop smoke for CV planes and blinds his team)

Doesn't go spot and stays near his team for AA-  gets blamed for not spotting.  The game and the player base has put DD players in a lose-lose situation. It's not the DD players that are going to need to adapt it's everyone else because they're going to get less and less spotting. They're going to have to play blind or a cruiser is going to get forced to spot. (we all know how that's going to turn out)

Edited by Vekta408

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1 minute ago, Navalpride33 said:

DDs did not complain about RTS CVs... That was BBs drivers, they put the giff of a lone Yammie getting deleted...

CVs DMG were lowered because BBs didn't wanted CV drivers farming BB HP with torps... That is why Nerfs to torps and flood happened in patch 0.8.0.1 to 0.8.1

Low AA DDs are complaining and rightfully so... BBs should not be the only ship class with better AA (as a whole). But no cruisers and select DDs...

Then again, this is the fatal flaw of the rework... No matter what changes are done to AA interaction with CVs... Its not nor will it ever be, content or fair for any ship class.

DD's DID compalin about RTS CV's.  They ALSO are the one's that complained about spotting...damage...rockets....sighting....Shall I go on because those are the ones here that are usually still complaining about someone being able to check and counter them.

BB's are complaining more about HE Spam, and fire damage to the point that CV's are actually becoming more loved.  It seems that your down playing the fact that DD's of all tiers still have skills and cool downs that can help them right?  I mean isn't that what most say about fire damage and use of damage control?  

I find it funny that you use fair, when talking about a HE spamming, stealth torp launching ship that can out run anything chasing it and never be able to be spotted if they are careful about range.  Yes that seems completely fair.

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14 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

You sound like a CV and BB player.  Just saying.

That matters why exactly?  It doesn't change the points that I've raised.

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55 minutes ago, MaxMcKay said:

CV's got reworked, then they got nerfed because DD players complained, then the CV's got their damage out put lowered.

Lets play a game.

Tell me which one the following snapshots belongs to the rework and which one to RTS:

BDE1kBd.png

2dwwtP1.png

Edited by El2aZeR

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53 minutes ago, MaxMcKay said:

Fire damage has crept up to such a degree most players hate HE spam more then the "hate" for CV's. 

HE spam isn't OP, what are you talking about?

image.png.5cf91cd40a566f176968e839ad17579c.png

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1 minute ago, MaxMcKay said:

DD's DID compalin about RTS CV's.  They ALSO are the one's that complained about spotting...damage...rockets....sighting....Shall I go on because those are the ones here that are usually still complaining about someone being able to check and counter them.

BB's are complaining more about HE Spam, and fire damage to the point that CV's are actually becoming more loved.  It seems that your down playing the fact that DD's of all tiers still have skills and cool downs that can help them right?  I mean isn't that what most say about fire damage and use of damage control?  

I find it funny that you use fair, when talking about a HE spamming, stealth torp launching ship that can out run anything chasing it and never be able to be spotted if they are careful about range.  Yes that seems completely fair.

You're forgetting the fact that DD players are expected to go into areas and do things that doesn't guarantee they can stay unspotted if they want to. It just doesn't work that way in practice. You might be able to get away with it in a torp boat like an asashio. Torps punish people that aren't paying attention or get stuck in bad positions. They are an unreliable source of damage and kills that depends on one of 3 things: Stupidity, Obliviousness, Greed

But by all means never be spotted. Heaven forbid you are called upon to try and spot or contest anything at all against another DD that has the same or better concealment than you right.

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5 minutes ago, mpwardawg said:

Well I would agree the CV complaining can be a bit much when people call for them to be deleted.  

But fire damage?  Yes it can suck to have your BB pounded by HE before you can back off or shoot the offender.  Or, don't approach that island without friendlies and then get mad when a red DD spots you and the red cruiser burns you.  But, just as you named other ship type advantages as radar, HE spam, stealth torps.....you forget your BB has:

1. Huge health pool

2.  Repair party (some of which can repair insane amounts)

3.  Best armor and torpedo belt

4.  Most powerful guns with the best range

5.  Secondaries that require no skill at all to use

6.  Usually among the best AA

I don't think BBs have it all that bad in WOWS.

1) can be burned through without any real chance of getting out of range of the DD/Cruiser that is burning them usually.  This honestly can go for almost any kind of ship.  Fire damage does kind of need a rework.

2) Repair party is shared by all ships, and is of limited use under a HE spam in a attempt to try to control the amount of fires any ship is trying to live through.

3) Armor and torpdeo belts don't matter against HE spam, also torpdeo belts have a limited hit area, again advantages and disadvantages.  

4) Over pens are a real things for almost any guns.  Yes BB's have range, but then so do quite a few cruisers, never mind DD torp ranges that climb up as well.

5) CV players face AAA all the time which like secondaries require no skill to use. also name another way a BB with a low reload speed has a chance dealing damage to certain more nimble targets.

6) AAA solves nothing when it comes to HE spam, plane attacks sure.  Stealth torping, HE spam fires they do nothing for.

I honestly don't think that BB's are the issue here.  I think that your choosing to focus on something else other then the points I raised.

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4 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Lets play a game.

Tell me which one the following snapshots belongs to the rework and which one to RTS:

BDE1kBd.png

2dwwtP1.png

The data indicate that more people are playing CVs now, which was the goal of the rework. Average damage has increased slightly because CVs helmed by average players are not totally deplaned by strafing in the first few minutes of the game.

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9 minutes ago, MaxMcKay said:

DD's DID compalin about RTS CV's.  They ALSO are the one's that complained about spotting...damage...rockets....sighting....Shall I go on because those are the ones here that are usually still complaining about someone being able to check and counter them.

BB's are complaining more about HE Spam, and fire damage to the point that CV's are actually becoming more loved.  It seems that your down playing the fact that DD's of all tiers still have skills and cool downs that can help them right?  I mean isn't that what most say about fire damage and use of damage control?  

I find it funny that you use fair, when talking about a HE spamming, stealth torp launching ship that can out run anything chasing it and never be able to be spotted if they are careful about range.  Yes that seems completely fair.

DDs where complaining about Perma spotting in RTS CVs days, compared to the rework... I'll take the RTS CVs back in a heartbeat even with all the RTS flaws...

BBs complain about torp soup BEFORE HE/fire spam... That is why

  • IJN torp DDs were nerfed
  • Flooding was nerfed
  • DC was buffed
  • IFHE benefits high caliber guns...
  • IFHE is a big nerf to CLs.
  • BBs citadels were lowered to be immune to Cruiser AP
  • Torp belt was increased.

I can go on and on and on how CVs and BBs have altered the game down to its foundation... EVEN WITH THAT,  CVs and BBs being the 2 biggest ships and the game.. Are not happy with ALL the adv. given to them thanks to the nerfs of the other ship class.

 

 

Edited by Navalpride33
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6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Lets play a game.

Tell me which one the following snapshots belongs to the rework and which one to RTS:

BDE1kBd.png

2dwwtP1.png

Sure tell me the fire damage loss of a HE spamming ship, or the constant attack by stealth launched torpedo.  I'm sure your going to be able to post a chart for that as well?  Shall we look at flooding damage and the rework for that?  

This literally has nothing to do with what I was talking about.  Nice charts though by the way.  Fire damage literally can not be stopped like planes can be.  We have no automated system that shoots shells out of the air, so not addressing the situation and a solid attempt to side track.  Seriously like the charts.

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If it was just the DDs complaining about CVs then why did torpedo flooding get nerfed so bad and CVs torpedo damage as well. CVs never drop torpedoes of DDs right. It was the BBs that complained about flooding and torpedo damage, which lead to those changes as well as the nerf to DD torpedo concealment values. 

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CVs prevent all sorts of fun tactics including setting up crossfires and ambushing, ensure that when games go south they cannot be recovered because repositioning without being spotted is almost impossible, cause arbitrary damage that shortens games and gets players killed faster, and because of their large health pool and high survival rate, reduce the chance of damage-related achievements like Kraken, Confederate, and High Caliber.

It sucks sometimes to be constantly set on fire. But fundamentally, HE itself does not have the wide-ranging negative effects on gameplay that CVs do. CVs suck for the 22 other players in the game.

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1 minute ago, Navalpride33 said:

DDs where complaining about Perma spotting in RTS CVs days, compared to the rework... I'll take the RTS CVs back in a heartbeat...

BBs complain about torp soup BEFORE HE/fire spam... That is why

  • IJN torp DDs were nerfed
  • Flooding was nerfed
  • DC was buffed
  • IFHE benefits high caliber guns...
  • IFHE is a big nerf to CLs.
  • BBs citadels were lowered to be immune to Cruiser AP

I can go on and on and on how CVs and BBs have altered the game down to its foundation... EVEN WITH THAT,  CVs and BBs being the 2 biggest ships and the game.. Are not happy with ALL the adv. given to them thanks to the nerfs of the other ship class.

 

 

We both can go on about reworks.  Yet funny enough only one of us is calling for a complete nerf of a class of ships, when all I'm asking for is a fire damage rework due to the amount of power creep HE spam has become.

Again your desperately using different things to argue for something that is completely different.  How is it you can list all of these debuffs and buffs yet ignore fire damage and HE spam.  This is literally what I'm talking about.  It's almost like this is a distraction so something you love won't be nerfed as long as you get something else to take up attention.

I mean we are actively ignore the advantages cruisers and DD's have in the game, the stealth launch torps, the smoke, the radar the HE spam, being able to keep any ship of any type lit with 4 fires.  Which they can never bring under control even if they wait for 2 to 3 fires before DC is used.  Why are you leaving that out of your examples?  

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12 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

The data indicate that more people are playing CVs now, which was the goal of the rework. Average damage has increased slightly because CVs helmed by average players are not totally deplaned by strafing in the first few minutes of the game.

Actually no it doesn't as WoWs is a seasonal game and therefore population data needs to be compared within the same timeframe per year.

At which point it looks like this:

2dwwtP1.png

jA6ZhdR.png

Amount of CV players before rework: 3704

Amount of CV players after rework: 3644

Oops?

Also average damage in the rework actually used to be below RTS up until recently. This is because the average player performed a lot worse in the rework as they apparently can't handle the additional manual input.

 

10 minutes ago, MaxMcKay said:

Sure tell me the fire damage loss of a HE spamming ship, or the constant attack by stealth launched torpedo.  I'm sure your going to be able to post a chart for that as well?

No because I cannot find it anymore. There was a chart posted ages ago which indeed did show that the amount of damage dealt by fires is rather small and fires have been severely nerfed since then.
The primary killer in this game are BB AP shells. I guess those need a rework?

Edited by El2aZeR
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Just now, Snargfargle said:

The data indicate that more people are playing CVs now, which was the goal of the rework. Average damage has increased slightly because CVs helmed by average players are not totally deplaned by strafing in the first few minutes of the game.

Average players weren't deplaned in the first few minutes, unless then they came across a unicum CV player and played very poorly.  Have you ever watched any of the good RTS players back in the day?  I was never a CV fan but I liked Fara's content.  He would always play in a three man div with his Omi clanmates, and I'd watch everyday players make him earn his wins.  

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11 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

HE spam isn't OP, what are you talking about?

image.png.5cf91cd40a566f176968e839ad17579c.png

I'm speaking of the ability of a stream of HE spam constantly flowing onto a ship which will start setting a unstoppable amount of fires on that ship even if DC is used properly when multiple fires are lit.  They will still be under that barrage and depending on ship type they can't go quiet and disappear.  They just have to burn.  This wasn't so bad when we had fewer HE spamming ships.  Though even the ones we had at the start got nerfed for their ROF.  Those are still nerfed to this day.  Now we have premium ships that can lay a stream of shells like a arch of fire (which I do have to admit looks cool as crapin twilight matches) that will keep people burning. 

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5 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

CVs prevent all sorts of fun tactics including setting up crossfires and ambushing, ensure that when games go south they cannot be recovered because repositioning without being spotted is almost impossible, cause arbitrary damage that shortens games and gets players killed faster, and because of their large health pool and high survival rate, reduce the chance of damage-related achievements like Kraken, Confederate, and High Caliber.

It sucks sometimes to be constantly set on fire. But fundamentally, HE itself does not have the wide-ranging negative effects on gameplay that CVs do. CVs suck for the 22 other players in the game.

So it's fine if a DD stealth launches a ship trying to do these things?  Or a cruiser radars and spoils those abilities as well.  Though it's only the CV that causes those problems huh?  I mean it's fair to have ships constantly burning no matter their class from a stream of HE shells.  We can ignore all of this though right?

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2 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

Average players weren't deplaned in the first few minutes, unless then they came across a unicum CV player and played very poorly.  Have you ever watched any of the good RTS players back in the day?  I was never a CV fan but I liked Fara's content.  He would always play in a three man div with his Omi clanmates, and I'd watch everyday players make him earn his wins.  

Yes they were, they got over tiered.  Stuck fighting a premium like the Saipan with tier 9 planes at tier 7.  I was a good CV player back in the day as well.  Please don't try to make it into something it wasnt.

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1 hour ago, MaxMcKay said:

[excerpted and edited]

1) Fire damage has crept up to such a degree most players hate HE spam more then the "hate" for CV's. 

2) More and more people are playing CV's and seeing the truth of the matter that CV's aren't over powered.  

1: Impossibru. 

2: LOL. Despite Weegee's repeated statements that their hearts desire is for higher CV population and at least one statement by Sub_O that they would buff carriers for this purpose alone regardless of their performance, the nerfs are under consideration. 

Edited by Pugilistic

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