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JediMasterDraco

German DD Buff?

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One thing that seems to not be noted in the potential IFHE and HE penetration changes is that German 128mm guns are now being stated to pen up to 32mm; however, it doesn't make the distinction if this is restricted to just cruiser guns or secondaries, or if German DDs are now getting some compensation for the relatively low DPS of their HE. I think this change would be a rather interesting one as going by the chart, German DDs would join the Japanese gunboat types as capable of penetrating battleships in areas besides the superstructure. If this hypothesis is correct, then they'll become a rather versatile ship-type as they won't need IFHE to do so and can put that hefty point price tag into other skills. If this assumption is wrong, then in my defense, my main source of info is the dev blog. Thoughts?

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Might be enough to justify grinding them out. Always been interested in those things, but they have so much stacked against them.

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6 minutes ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Might be enough to justify grinding them out. Always been interested in those things, but they have so much stacked against them.

I ground them out mainly for another SC during the anniversaries since the line came out before SCs got nerfed. I feel they've always had an overly negative repution because they were the testbed for eliminating OWSF.

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Just now, JediMasterDraco said:

I ground them out mainly for another SC during the anniversaries since the line came out before SCs got nerfed. I feel they've always had an overly negative repution because they were the testbed for eliminating OWSF.

Me, I just feel that their AP could shatter less. I hear it does that a lot, making what I'd call their most interesting part kinda... subpar?

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1 minute ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Me, I just feel that their AP could shatter less. I hear it does that a lot, making what I'd call their most interesting part kinda... subpar?

Yeah, I mean that's pretty much the selling point to some extent for the Germans. Your HE is meh, but your AP is strong. Unfortunately DD AP in general tends to be iffy when penetrating so the line is rather mediocre when taking into account it's detection. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. If my guess is correct though, my T-61 is going to be quite happy.

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1 minute ago, JediMasterDraco said:

Yeah, I mean that's pretty much the selling point to some extent for the Germans. Your HE is meh, but your AP is strong. Unfortunately DD AP in general tends to be iffy when penetrating so the line is rather mediocre when taking into account it's detection. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. If my guess is correct though, my T-61 is going to be quite happy.

Part of why I like my Z-39 I got by luck! The AP is bigger, and she gets the T8 slot, so she loses the worse parts.

That said, haven't had much reason to use her since getting Haida. Love that thing. :cap_haloween:

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I'm still waiting for the possibility of equiping 150mm on Z52. While the DPM might not be impressive being able to citadel broadside cruiser in an ambush it still pretty good.

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i don't know what it is about german DDs but i just can't get into them. 

japanese torp boats, american DDs, english DDs, japanese gunboats, american DDs again... none of it felt like a grind... but 2 or 3 battles in the z-23 and im just like ugh omg... enough already

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I personally don‘t think that this would be the buff they need. The problem is not that the HE shatters against surfaces (in the moments where it matters most, say, during capfighting, you‘ll rarely shatter to begin with), the problem is that the HE dpm utterly sucks. To compare, Shimakaze has a higher HE dpm than Z-52. 

I rather think that an HE Alpha buff would help them more. If one uses the HE Alpha damage formula, the resulting number is around 1,700. That would give her imo more worth than the ability to apply the mediocre to pathetic HE dpm against larger targets. 

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2 hours ago, JediMasterDraco said:

German 128mm guns are now being stated to pen up to 32mm

Cruisers and BB's only - German DD's don't use 1/4 pen like the other ships, so the 128 mm guns only pen 20 mm of armour (albeit it should be 21). Unless I missed that 9.2 will also change them to 1/4 as my Maass in port shows the current HE pen at 20 mm. 

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2 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

Cruisers and BB's only - German DD's don't use 1/4 pen like the other ships, so the 128 mm guns only pen 20 mm of armour (albeit it should be 21). Unless I missed that 9.2 will also change them to 1/4 as my Maass in port shows the current HE pen at 20 mm. 

Well as I said, the update only states German 128mm and German 150mm. It doesn't specify if those guns need be on a CL/CA or BB.

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20 minutes ago, JediMasterDraco said:

Well as I said, the update only states German 128mm and German 150mm. It doesn't specify if those guns need be on a CL/CA or BB.

I saw was just saying as it is now - and not ruling out because clarity has been a major issue for Wargaming recently that there was actually the possibility they were doing it and just didn't list it.

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5 hours ago, JediMasterDraco said:

One thing that seems to not be noted in the potential IFHE and HE penetration changes is that German 128mm guns are now being stated to pen up to 32mm; however, it doesn't make the distinction if this is restricted to just cruiser guns or secondaries, or if German DDs are now getting some compensation for the relatively low DPS of their HE. I think this change would be a rather interesting one as going by the chart, German DDs would join the Japanese gunboat types as capable of penetrating battleships in areas besides the superstructure. If this hypothesis is correct, then they'll become a rather versatile ship-type as they won't need IFHE to do so and can put that hefty point price tag into other skills. If this assumption is wrong, then in my defense, my main source of info is the dev blog. Thoughts?

I have suggested this countless times... German DDs give up the HE damage to get absolutely anything in return... They should get that 1/4 pen but that wouldn't be enough... They still have absolutely horrible stats otherwise so that needs to be part of a much bigger buff specially to Z-46 and Z-52, mainly in the HP and concealment departments. Alternatively, make the torpedos reload at the same base rate as the lower Tiers of the same line (68 seconds) to make that an actual advantage. French torpedos reload in 77 seconds having much much more damage and speed so makes no sense that Z-52 torpedos reload in 90...

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1 hour ago, XurMP said:

I have suggested this countless times... German DDs give up the HE damage to get absolutely anything in return... They should get that 1/4 pen but that wouldn't be enough... They still have absolutely horrible stats otherwise so that needs to be part of a much bigger buff specially to Z-46 and Z-52, mainly in the HP and concealment departments. Alternatively, make the torpedos reload at the same base rate as the lower Tiers of the same line (68 seconds) to make that an actual advantage. French torpedos reload in 77 seconds having much much more damage and speed so makes no sense that Z-52 torpedos reload in 90...

Z52 concealment is fine. With the 6km hydro, you can basically spot at the same time enemy DD with an ''All seeing eyes'', and Z52 have enough speed to close the gap with the majority of enemy DD.

Even the torp ain't that bad: with 10.5km it is not that hard to steal launch them, meanwhile Kleber, if he do reload them faster, steal torpedoing is not his thing.

 

Z52 should be a DD killer with Hydro, and in that regard the main issue is his guns: unless the other player is potatoing and giving broadside you will struggle to damage them with HE. Adding penetration will just make the ship more all over the place imo: the best way is either to boost her HE dpm or increase the bounce angle of the AP.

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52 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Z52 concealment is fine. With the 6km hydro, you can basically spot at the same time enemy DD with an ''All seeing eyes'', and Z52 have enough speed to close the gap with the majority of enemy DD.

The issue is not that, is that if your absolutely horrible smoke is in cooldown both Daring and Grozo outspot you while they have far far superior DPM + health advantage + heal so you are dead. You also only have a extremely small 0.1 advantage over Harugumo so yeah... Z-52 should be the only ship in game with a very small window for stealth hydro with a 5.9 concealment so she have a chance against the gunboats she share concealment with.

55 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Even the torp ain't that bad: with 10.5km it is not that hard to steal launch them, meanwhile Kleber, if he do reload them faster, steal torpedoing is not his thing.

Yeah the 10.5km wouldn't be bad is 12km radar wasn't a thing... Moskva, Stalingrad and now both new Russian Cruisers are completely safe from any kind of damage Z-52 can do to them as her AP at those ranges in without joking a extremely poor 45mm pen... 

Also the torpedos themselves are just worsened Mk 16 torpedos that gain 10 seconds reload to basically lose or tie in all other stats yay...

Kebler can still stealth torp (although the gap is quite small now), the torpedos have very high damage and super high speeds and you can do Benham style turns if you didn't nuke the enemy with the first set... French torpedos are basically a extremely improved version of the IJN F3 as you get double the amount, insanely improved reload, same speed, all that in a far superior platform for them and you just lose some damage? Wow such fair trade...

 

1 hour ago, Y_Nagato said:

Z52 should be a DD killer with Hydro, and in that regard the main issue is his guns: unless the other player is potatoing and giving broadside you will struggle to damage them with HE. Adding penetration will just make the ship more all over the place imo: the best way is either to boost her HE dpm or increase the bounce angle of the AP.

Yep, the issue is just that: her guns have been powercreeped to hell.

AP does decent damage but overpens DDs and shatters in very small angles... HE is so absurdly bad that it feels like the guns are loaded with potatos...

That said, HE should get improved damage AND 1/4 pen while the AP should have decreased arming threshold but increased pen (by buffing her insanely poor Krupp value) so the AP DD can do anything else than shatter at over 6km...

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What the Z line needs:

1.) 1/4 HE pen. Hindenburg was performing BETTER than the Z-52 before it got 1/4 pen, so there is more than ample evidence. If Hindenburg gets it, so should the DD line.

2.) Shorter AP fuse times.

3.) Buff to torpedo speed, or damage, or both.


There isn't a single other ship from any non-DD ship type that is purely designed to counter internally (e.g. a Cruiser made purely to counter other Cruisers), and part of the problem is there are too many DDs which are strong at countering other DDs but weak against EVERYTHING else. That is antithesis to balance in the current model. German DDs need buffs to make them stronger against Non-DDs.

Edited by Varknyn12
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When they did the special game mode and they brought the Z52 to tier 7 it magically changes the boat to something useful because it lowered the turning circle of the ship.

That is my biggest gripe for any and all Axis dds is the turning circle and torp detection for IJN. 

Move the turning circle down and upgrade the torps to 12km and you got a winner. 

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40 minutes ago, Varknyn12 said:

What the Z line needs:

1.) 1/4 HE pen. Hindenburg was performing BETTER than the Z-52 before it got 1/4 pen, so there is more than ample evidence. If Hindenburg gets it, so should the DD line.

2.) Shorter AP fuse times.

3.) Buff to torpedo speed, or damage, or both.


There isn't a single other ship from any non-DD ship type that is purely designed to counter internally (e.g. a Cruiser made purely to counter other Cruisers), and part of the problem is there are too many DDs which are strong at countering other DDs but weak against EVERYTHING else. That is antithesis to balance in the current model. German DDs need buffs to make them stronger against Non-DDs.

I think the answer at this point is to give Z-52 (and Z-46) the Grozovoi heal treatment.  That way, her DPM and fundamental mechanics don't change, but her survivability goes way up... and if a mistake is made that is survived... she can re-apear and have relevance later in the game.  Before the Grozovoi was buffed, she was terrible, now she's one of the best DD's at tier 10.  Same could happen for Z-52.

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I actually like the German DDs. I think T7 and T8 could use 0.1-0.2 concealment buff, but they are very usable as is. For T9 Z-46 I, only change I would give is give her 5.5km hydro. That way you have clear progression from T8-T10 in terms of hydro power. As for Z-52, I think her DPM is okay, maybe also 0.1 concealment buff, so her hydro advantage is even more relevant. I don't think heal is the answer. Frankly I think there are already too many DDs with heals already. 

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8 hours ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Might be enough to justify grinding them out. Always been interested in those things, but they have so much stacked against them.

I think they are still an interesting line, despite being power crept a bit.  I chose to re-grind the German DDs as my second regrind for the RB a couple months ago, and I actually enjoyed the experience again the second time through.

Thing is, with questionable concealment and HE alpha, they can't be played like other DD lines.  AP is effective in getting the most of their guns when opportunities arise (sticking solely to HE will heavily limit the gun performance), and using smoke/hydro as an ambush predator can be very effective.

 

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The 32mm pen on the 128s is only for the secondary guns on BBs and cruisers. Does not apply to the German DDs. It *should* apply given how horribly weak their HE dpm is, but Wargaming seems adamant about not buffing the DDs despite the entire community telling them they really need to, and that for years now.

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1 hour ago, axyarthur said:

Frankly I think there are already too many DDs with heals already. 

I'm curious as to why DDs having heals is bad, but CA/CL, and BBs with heals is good?

I think all DDs should have heals, and then buff the heal on the DDs that need a boost, just like is done for other ships. 

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17 minutes ago, VeatherVitch said:

I'm curious as to why DDs having heals is bad, but CA/CL, and BBs with heals is good?

I think all DDs should have heals, and then buff the heal on the DDs that need a boost, just like is done for other ships. 

Back in early days of the game, each class has unique consumables. BBs have heal, cruisers have DFAA (then hydro), and DDs have smoke and speed boost. These unique consumables give each class tools that other classes don't. Now we entered into zone where any consumable can go with any class. Now there's hardly a consumable that is class specific anymore. It just takes the uniqueness of each class away, making them more similar than before.

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I've played Z-52 quite a lot, but not lately.  

Advantages:

  • fast firing guns
  • fast reloading torpedoes
  • reasonable speed
  • 6 km hydro
  • good AA (used to be better before CV rework)
  • Lots of hit points

Disadvantages:

  • Guns just don't dish out the damage. You can switch back and forth between HE and AP, and it doesn't seem to make much difference.  
  • Torpedoes have low damage.  I've put all 8 torps into a BB that had already taken damage in a single salvo, and it still lived.
  • She's a fatty.  Easy to hit (for a DD)
  • 6.1 km detection.  Not completely horrible, and the hydro can at least even the odds somewhat.  But not fantastic.

You are not going to win gun fights against gunboat DDs, but you can still knife fight other DDs using your torps.  Against non-gunboat DDs you can hold your own.  The hydro gives you an advantage, letting you rush smoke with relative impunity.  If it goes on long enough, your fast reloading torps might let you get off a second salvo while the other guy is reloading. 

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3 hours ago, axyarthur said:

Back in early days of the game, each class has unique consumables. BBs have heal, cruisers have DFAA (then hydro), and DDs have smoke and speed boost. These unique consumables give each class tools that other classes don't. Now we entered into zone where any consumable can go with any class. Now there's hardly a consumable that is class specific anymore. It just takes the uniqueness of each class away, making them more similar than before.

Were heals not always on all T9+ cruisers?

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