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Shannon_Lindsey

Can someone please explain to me what Zerra is ranting about

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So Zerra recently posted a video going on about the effect the IFHE and armor rework was going to have on tier 7 light cruisers, especially Belfast and Atlanta, and how they are going to be useless. I could not follow him. I already knew Atlanta was going to be in the minority of ships still needing to run IFHE after the rework via @Notser, but there were so many numbers being thrown around I couldn't follow it. I know something in my gut told me the math was off, but I couldn't put my finger on why. Does anyone have any answers on this?

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From what WG is saying, tier 7 CLs won't be able to pen tier 8+ BBs even with IFHE after the change except for the superstructure.   And with the armor changes, they won't be able to pen tier 8+ CAs without IFHE.  Rock and a hard place.

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I think the main point is that right now with IFHE, Atlanta can pen 27mm of armor, which is the exterior armor of heavy cruisers at T8 and T9 (American and German, at least). After rework, Atlanta will no longer be able to cross that threshold even with IFHE, so its effectiveness at fighting higher tier cruisers will be reduced. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

So Zerra recently posted a video going on about the effect the IFHE and armor rework was going to have on tier 7 light cruisers, especially Belfast and Atlanta, and how they are going to be useless. I could not follow him. I already knew Atlanta was going to be in the minority of ships still needing to run IFHE after the rework via @Notser, but there were so many numbers being thrown around I couldn't follow it. I know something in my gut told me the math was off, but I couldn't put my finger on why. Does anyone have any answers on this?

The answers are in PTS right now. I dont like the math greatly benefiting certain ship classes while crapping on the game play of other ships..

For me tier 10 is bad, I mean its awful, 0.9.2 makes it worse... For some, this is the end of the line (ala CV rework 0.8.0) for others (those who liked high tier battles), they may like the INCREASED passive play.

Math is law when done correctly, so far... I hope to all the porcelain gods the math is wrong... If not, then que sera sera.

CV Rework and IFHE change, will definitely see a change in tactics at high tiers... It will be like entering a parallel universe.

Edited by Navalpride33

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14 minutes ago, CaptainKaitoGhost said:

From what WG is saying, tier 7 CLs won't be able to pen tier 8+ BBs even with IFHE after the change except for the superstructure.   And with the armor changes, they won't be able to pen tier 8+ CAs without IFHE.  Rock and a hard place.

Wait until the BB players realize that the uparmoring of Cruisers is going to cause very bad issues for their guns smaller than 406mm.

 

In the current system, a 380mm armed Bismarck-class can be trolled by a High Tier USN / German CA that has a 27mm bow.  It can bounce those shells.  But at least 380mm AP will Overmatch 25mm armor sections which is very common on Cruisers within Bismarck's MM bracket, even in High Tier.

 

With the new system, CL Cleveland in Tier VIII will improve from 25mm armor mid section that got Overmatched by 380mm AP, into 27mm armor which will bounce that AP shell size.

 

This update is going to have very profound changes.  People are only talking about what it's doing for Cruisers, namely CLs, but Battleships are really going to feel this update unless their guns are 406mm+.  FR BBs in particular are going to feel this the most.  Their Tech Tree BBs use 380mm as far as Tier IX, whereas Germans' last is at Tier VIII.  All 3 of the High Tier Premium FR BBs, Bourgogne, Jean Bart, and Gascogne, are 380mm armed.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

FR BBs in particular are going to feel this the most.  Their Tech Tree BBs use 380mm as far as Tier IX

Time to become British and load HE!

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16 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Wait until the BB players realize that the uparmoring of Cruisers is going to cause very bad issues for their guns smaller than 406mm.

 

In the current system, a 380mm armed Bismarck-class can be trolled by a High Tier USN / German CA that has a 27mm bow.  It can bounce those shells.  But at least 380mm AP will Overmatch 25mm armor sections which is very common on Cruisers within Bismarck's MM bracket, even in High Tier.

 

With the new system, CL Cleveland in Tier VIII will improve from 25mm armor mid section that got Overmatched by 380mm AP, into 27mm armor which will bounce that AP shell size.

 

This update is going to have very profound changes.  People are only talking about what it's doing for Cruisers, namely CLs, but Battleships are really going to feel this update unless their guns are 406mm+.  FR BBs in particular are going to feel this the most.  Their Tech Tree BBs use 380mm as far as Tier IX, whereas Germans' last is at Tier VIII.  All 3 of the High Tier Premium FR BBs, Bourgogne, Jean Bart, and Gascogne, are 380mm armed.

Yeap, people are so fixated on their precious over-rated IFHE skill that they're not looking at the bigger picture of which ships are going to be boned by the basic HE pen and armor thickness changed. 

 

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Will the chance to start fires change? Might have to go back to just DE and try for DoT?

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9 minutes ago, Khafni said:

Will the chance to start fires change? Might have to go back to just DE and try for DoT?

cut in half, but fire damage is very RNG no matter what the number is.

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From a different perspective, the problem that the Atlanta (and Flint) face is that their guns are 5"-ers.  And while the more normal 6" CL guns might be usable in some way without IHFE, it seems that the 5" ones won't.  Further, unless you create a captain specifically for the Atlanta/Flint, the best source for a 5" gun captain would be USN DDs.  But USN DDs aren't, in my experience, such hard core gunboats that players want to spec their captains for IFHE.  So, I'm thinking that if someone really, REALLY likes playing their Atlanta and/or Flint, then they may want to create a captain specific to those ships.

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I'm pretty sure Worcester will have its armour increased from 25mm to 27mm.

 

I can't wait to just out trade a Bourgogne or JB in the open.

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6 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

I'm pretty sure Worcester will have its armour increased from 25mm to 27mm.

 

I did not see. Worcester doing so well in the testing environment of PTS.. Most of those battles were not full fleet strength. 

As much as I want to be positive of this change... So far, I cant...

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Reading all these changes, a few things occur to me.

1.  T8 is going to be much better than T7 and below for CLs.

2.  CAs now gain some advantages over CLs that they didn't have before. (or CLs lose some of their advantages).

3.  The overmatch of guns over 406mm are going to have a bigger advantage than before.

Seems that WG wants players to play higher tiers and shoot bigger guns.

 

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32 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Seems that WG wants players to play higher tiers and shoot bigger guns.

That has always been the push. Clan Battles and Ranked had been T10 by default. Steel ships nowadays are T10.

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this change is why I am holding off on buying Jean Bart.         15" BB will have to be HE spamming and that would make them lot less useful.      T7 will be tough tier for CLs now.     

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3 hours ago, axyarthur said:

I think the main point is that right now with IFHE, Atlanta can pen 27mm of armor, which is the exterior armor of heavy cruisers at T8 and T9 (American and German, at least). After rework, Atlanta will no longer be able to cross that threshold even with IFHE, so its effectiveness at fighting higher tier cruisers will be reduced. 

 

Ok so,  wont they have to adjust the match making for tighter tier spreads in tandem or is this just gonna be a serious balance issue?

Edited by JaysUsedBoatParts

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3 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

The answers are in PTS right now. I dont like the math greatly benefiting certain ship classes while crapping on the game play of other ships..

For me tier 10 is bad, I mean its awful, 0.9.2 makes it worse... For some, this is the end of the line (ala CV rework 0.8.0) for others (those who liked high tier battles), they may like the INCREASED passive play.

Math is law when done correctly, so far... I hope to all the porcelain gods the math is wrong... If not, then que sera sera.

CV Rework and IFHE change, will definitely see a change in tactics at high tiers... It will be like entering a parallel universe.

I'm just going to drop IFHE and pick up demo expert.

Burn baby burn.

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5 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

I'm just going to drop IFHE and pick up demo expert.

Burn baby burn.

it may work for some ships with your play style... It may not be the over all solution for other ships...

Report back on your progression.

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These changes make no sense at all to me.  Were Tier 7 CLs really beating up Tier 8 and 9 BBs so hard WG had to whack them with the nerf bat in order to make being bottom more challenging?  

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5 minutes ago, yashma said:

These changes make no sense at all to me.  Were Tier 7 CLs really beating up Tier 8 and 9 BBs so hard WG had to whack them with the nerf bat in order to make being bottom more challenging?  

I think it's more that they are making changes that affect more than they consider. And it's gonna blow up in their face in a bad way.

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2 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

I'm just going to drop IFHE and pick up demo expert.

Burn baby burn.

That's going to be one of the unintended consequences that's going to bite WGHQ in the backside. 

 

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11 hours ago, Crucis said:

So, I'm thinking that if someone really, REALLY likes playing their Atlanta and/or Flint, then they may want to create a captain specific to those ships.

But that has always been the case as long as I can remember. Neither DD captains nor other light cruiser captains have ever really been right for her. The only exception I can think of is Binational Ovechkin, flipping between Smolensk and Atlanta/Flint, with something like Kiev or Khaba as their primary tech-tree "home".

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9 hours ago, yashma said:

Were Tier 7 CLs really beating up Tier 8 and 9 BBs so hard WG had to whack them with the nerf bat in order to make being bottom more challenging?  

Most of the cruisers at Tier 7 are 203mm heavies. The few that are not either have 15 barrels and can play the DOT game (Helena, Boise/Nueve de Julio), don't fire HE anyway (Fiji), or are Stronk Soviet Bias ships (Shchors, Lazo) or forbidden fruit (Belfast) that quite a few players with a beef against WG probably want to see get the hammer and suffer for a change.

Atlanta and Flint are in a weird place because of their 5" guns, but the Atlantas were mostly about burning stuff down anyway.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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10 hours ago, Bill_Halsey said:

That has always been the push. Clan Battles and Ranked had been T10 by default. Steel ships nowadays are T10.

Yes, but now they are just straight up widening the gap between T7 and T8 (with the he pen and armor changes).  With the armor changes they are also pushing (encouraging if you wish) players to get 406+mm BBs.

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