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New RN line has mothballed an entire line of it's own tech tree ships?

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Looking at the early stats of the new RN cruisers compared to the existing line a few thoughts come to mind. 1st, HE is king. Slow reload, no smoke, and less detection.... yet it is averaging anywhere from 10%-50% damage numbers above it's AP slinging, smoke sitting sisters. Tiers 8-10 get real ugly. WR is higher as well, even the vaunted FIJI is behind it's tier 7 counterpart.

2nd, I don't really have a 2nd, most of my schtick into that last point.

With all the hydro, radar, smoke firing nerfs and additional spotting from CV's.... has Churchill ruined half of his cruiser fleet? Or are we attributing the huge number differences to skill based on who is playing them right now? (the more experienced player argument?)

sRokiBP.png

 

 

 

 

Edited by Waxing_Gibbous
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Yes, the lack of HE is showing as a deal breaker, for the RN light cruisers. I have the XP for the Neptune, but I can't bring myself to buy one. Why? I honestly can't find a single good word about it, anywhere, from anyone. Everyone says it sucks. It is just an Edinburgh with worse MM.

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Different strokes for different folks I suppose. The RN light cruiser line is one of my favorites. I enjoyed Neptune a lot and have the whole line in port from t5 up. I like them because it’s different and I would say more difficult then the standard he spammers. Positioning and map awareness are so much more important imo and I like the high risk aspect to them. I certainly see why the he spam would be better in this meta statistically speaking but I still enjoy the line a lot.

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I still like the range advantage of the AP only boats. With lower skill captains the new heavy line at least up to tier 8 can be quite a challenge imho. With limits on range AND concealment with those lower skilled captains, things can get disadvantageous very quickly in terms of positioning. 

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The stats for the heavies are likely higher due to more experienced players getting to the top of the tech tree first. 

Once the masses begin to proliferate the entire line, things will probably fall into line with everything else, stat-wise.

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Neptune is one of my favorite tech tree botes. 

Position, Smoke, Farm, Move

Repeat, Superheal as needed.

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29 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

 

Yep this happens with every release. One would think the OP would notice this after 18k battles. This is why it often takes months before WG balances a new line after release. Takes a while for enough of the late adopters to filter in and get a wide range of skill levels playing them.

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Well, first off, the stats of the RN CA line are going to drop, the line was just released and few payers have the ships. 

 

Well, now to RN CLs, they have a really high skill floor (maybe the highest of a cruiser line so far), this already reduces the number of players that play the line and even more the number of players that do well with those ships. The current CV/radar meta dont help them either. RN CLs rely o lot on concealment and radar/CVs hard counter them. 

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The two lines play completely different. What are you talking about? 

Besides, as you said, those are early stats. Those are going to drop when more people get their hands on the ship

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I don't think the existence of the RN CA's invalidates the CL's by any means, but I certainly perceive the possibility of the light line becoming a niche. After all, if you're a newcomer who's just battled your way through the Weymouth, Caledon and Danae, which ship are YOU going to go for? The Super-Danae that now has to face T7 ships with radar and can't start fires at a distance? Or the Super-Danae that can?

Whatever problems the Hawkins has, she can at least get DOT damage at range.

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25 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

Yep this happens with every release. One would think the OP would notice this after 18k battles. This is why it often takes months before WG balances a new line after release. Takes a while for enough of the late adopters to filter in and get a wide range of skill levels playing them.

What timeframe or number of games who be a better time to judge? I remember everyone said the same about the Nelson compared to it's piers... whelp 2 years later and outperforms most tier 8 BB's and a few tier 9's.

 

OP ships are OP ships. I am not saying that the new RN are OP as much as the old cruiser line is horrible.  The margins may decrease, but they won't be close. The damage numbers are currently 50% higher at tier 9 and 10, they may drift lower but they won't ever be within 15%. The current game meta has deleted the old RN cruisers.

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But how much of that extra damage is of the heallable fire sort? 

Damage isn't only a quantitative afair, it's also a qualitative one.

Edited by warheart1992

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6 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

But how much of that extra damage is of the heallable fire sort? 

Damage isn't only a quantitative afair, it's also a qualitative one.

I agree that damage isn't the all encompassing stat. However the lack of it is.

The Mino I believe is the 45th best ship in the game for doing damage.

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If anything the more impactful, powerful and (most importantly) fun CL line really invalidates the trash-tier boring HE spam CA line...

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2 hours ago, Waxing_Gibbous said:

Looking at the early stats of the new RN cruisers compared to the existing line a few thoughts come to mind. 1st, HE is king. Slow reload, no smoke, and less detection.... yet it is averaging anywhere from 10%-50% damage numbers above it's AP slinging, smoke sitting sisters. Tiers 8-10 get real ugly. WR is higher as well, even the vaunted FIJI is behind it's tier 7 counterpart.

2nd, I don't really have a 2nd, most of my schtick into that last point.

With all the hydro, radar, smoke firing nerfs and additional spotting from CV's.... has Churchill ruined half of his cruiser fleet? Or are we attributing the huge number differences to skill based on who is playing them right now? (the more experienced player argument?)

sRokiBP.png

 

 

 

 

While intriguing, the sample size for the new line is too small, wait until there are hundreds of thousands of battles.

Or,

Go check Ru/EU server stats to see.

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29 minutes ago, Waxing_Gibbous said:

What timeframe or number of games who be a better time to judge? I remember everyone said the same about the Nelson compared to it's piers... whelp 2 years later and outperforms most tier 8 BB's and a few tier 9's.

 

OP ships are OP ships. I am not saying that the new RN are OP as much as the old cruiser line is horrible.  The margins may decrease, but they won't be close. The damage numbers are currently 50% higher at tier 9 and 10, they may drift lower but they won't ever be within 15%. The current game meta has deleted the old RN cruisers.

In addition to the usual early adopter skill boost thing, I think there are two other things going on when you compare the two lines.  #1, the heal at low tier and later on superheal can to a lot to keep a boat in the game after a mistake that would send others to the port.  #2  The heavies are more tolerant of mistakes compared to the CL line.  Also, positioning isn't quite as important for doing damage compared to the AP boats.  Basically, the skill floor is pretty high for the CLs.  Some of my best and worst games are in Neptune. 

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2 hours ago, SidTheBlade said:

Yes, the lack of HE is showing as a deal breaker, for the RN light cruisers. I have the XP for the Neptune, but I can't bring myself to buy one. Why? I honestly can't find a single good word about it, anywhere, from anyone. Everyone says it sucks. It is just an Edinburgh with worse MM.

The Neptune is a high skill ceiling bote, once you learn it you will like it.

Here let me start you off:

1: Don't get shot in the side by cruisers or dds, or anywhere by large calibre shells.

 

 

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The RN CL line tier 6 onwards, is exquisitely enjoyable. Highlights for me being Leander, Fiji, Edinburgh, Neptune and Minotaur (but my fav will always be the Scotsman at tier 8). They remain one of the best ship lines, of all warships tech trees, and this, without HE.

Something else to think about, the RN CLs, (excepting Belfast) will be immune to the upcoming IFHE changes.

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Goliath is fun, don't get me wrong, but I definitely prefer the Mino. Goliath's strength is that at the moment, I think most players don't appreciate the staggering power of her HE; getting 7-9k salvos is easy and people do not expect that amount of chunks to come off from HE. But that strength will wane once people realize the potency and how floaty the shells are at range. Mino on the other hand is much harder to deal with as one, you might not be able to SEE it, and for two, it can fire in a constant stream in varying targeting locations, meaning it can be more or less impossible to dodge 100% of the shells, and given the RN CL's wacky performance, some of those hits WILL cause damage, and at what? Up to 180 rounds per minute, that damage will add up rapidly, and unlike HE slinging that damage is not recoverable at an accelerated rate (Fires heal 100%; RN CL AP does 33% pens primarily healed at a lower rate and rarely if ever overpens).

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1 hour ago, warheart1992 said:

But how much of that extra damage is of the heallable fire sort? 

Damage isn't only a quantitative afair, it's also a qualitative one.

Sure, you can get fire damage back 100% - but if you're on low health and caught waiting for the heal to come off cooldown, you're still more vulnerable to being one-shotted than if the enemy fire-slinger hadn't farmed you in the first place.

That's the flipside; that's why - all else being equal - there is merit in farming battleships for fire damage. And there comes a point at which even a ship with heals can't keep up with the constant burning. It's not just about the fire damage - it's about putting their DCP and heal on cooldown and making them vulnerable to even more damage of all kinds. 

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Yet when you get the Mino and make it rain on someone...and watch them scream in chat....it's delicious. 

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ALL new lines have good stats at first. Experienced players get up the tiers faster, and enemy players are still not used to those ships and how best to counter them.

As for CL vs CA ... CL might not have HE, but it has improved auto bounce AP pen, smoke, better concealment (with Neptune being the exception), and considerably stronger torp power that some can shoot from stealth. Minotaur is basically an oversized DD and can take a dump all over BBs trying to push towards them. And the smoke firing penalty on Mino is really small.

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4 hours ago, Waxing_Gibbous said:

Looking at the early stats of the new RN cruisers compared to the existing line a few thoughts come to mind. 1st, HE is king. Slow reload, no smoke, and less detection.... yet it is averaging anywhere from 10%-50% damage numbers above it's AP slinging, smoke sitting sisters. Tiers 8-10 get real ugly. WR is higher as well, even the vaunted FIJI is behind it's tier 7 counterpart.

2nd, I don't really have a 2nd, most of my schtick into that last point.

With all the hydro, radar, smoke firing nerfs and additional spotting from CV's.... has Churchill ruined half of his cruiser fleet? Or are we attributing the huge number differences to skill based on who is playing them right now? (the more experienced player argument?)

sRokiBP.png

RN CAs are very new and have very small sample sizes in Battles played.  This inflates the stat performance when ships are new.

 

When the RN CL Line was new, her stats had her doing Moskva and Zao levels of damage, i.e. "top of the line cruiser damage."  There were lots of calls for nerfs against Minotaur.  WG never did anything against her.  Sure enough, people got used to seeing her and understand her weaknesses.  More people got their hands on her and the stats dropped dramatically to be bottom rung Tier X damage dealing cruiser with Des Moines.

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

  More people got their hands on her and the stats dropped dramatically to be bottom rung Tier X damage dealing cruiser with Des Moines.

No, the newer lines came out and she(the entire line) was power creeped by the French, the Italian line and now the new RN. Add in smoke firing nerfs, more hydro, more radar and more CV's they have been sent to the basement to stay. The glory days for the original line of RN cruisers are a distant memory. They were good when you could sit for days in your smoke and fire at will. That is over now.

 

Why not blame the real reason for their performance? The game itself. 

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