IFHE and fire chance changes

[Frigate007]

How will they effect secondary builds on ships like Massachusetts? Will they be a huge nerf? A small nerf? Also a nerf to all American BB's due to deck armour plating and the changes that are being proposed? If I understand correctly, they will get pen more easily by cruisers?

[SilverPhatShips]

Well considering it's not finalized and in testing who knows what is gonna be

[Saidalphon]

Oh crap, i hadn't even considered the effect of the 50% fire nerf would have on secondaries, that would be kind of a crazy nerf, considering secondaries already have low fire chance.

For example 5% fire chance on a secondary reduced by 40 or 50% base fire res of high tier ships means they would actually have like 2.5-2% (roughly, i don't math good but it's an example) fire chance, + the -50% IFHE fire chance = 1% fire chance? That's rough.

 

And the BBs that will be most affected are those that have 25mm plating, as a lot of cruisers that have base 24mm pen will now get base 25mm, so they won't need IFHE to pen those decks at all.

Of course this is just going off of what we know now, since it's all subject to change we'll have to see later.

[USMC2145]

What i find funny is all those players begging for these nerfs and now that we are getting them and they are effecting those players also they are now complaining. WG just can't win. 

[SilverPhatShips]

Only players asking for it is the bad battleship players 

 But that is WGs cash cow

 

[USMC2145]

Just now, NoLoveForPhatShips said:

Only players asking for it is the bad battleship players 

 But that is WGs cash cow

 

True!

[Sou1forge]

6 minutes ago, NoLoveForPhatShips said:

Only players asking for it is the bad battleship players 

 But that is WGs cash cow

 

I don’t think anyone was actually asking for it to be honest. Even the players who hate the fire rainbows of death weren’t complaining about IFHE, they were complaining about having two fires on them all game. I guess this helps those players, but honestly they would have been fine with any nerf to HE damage. 
 

I’ll hazard a venture into conspiracy land, but I think this change was a dev focused effort. For a long time I’ve heard rumblings about how WG doesn’t like the captain skill (and no, I don’t have quotes or anything. Take this with a grain of salt for the opinion that it is). I’d be willing to bet this was a few guys at the office who never liked the way the skill worked into ship design. Maybe they didn’t like balancing around it, or they had other designs about how light cruisers were supposed to function, or whatever.

This is unless there’s something on the RU or EU community side that’s different. My picture of the WoWS community isn’t the biggest.

[Venac]

BB players are not going to be happy for sure over the CA armor changes. It will be much harder for BB to kill CA at range if these changes go through and i love it. The IFHE changes will not effect ships like the Zao, Alaska and any other big gunned CA. They just don't use it. 

[Navalpride33]

Until anything is set in stone and ready to go on live server...Then I'll see what I have to change... Until then,  I will not bother with it...

[cronics]

All of USN high tier battleships will be hit hard they all have 38 mm armor even the Montana.......... usn battleships will be trash after this they literally will be all penetrated by every single HE- shell.... who needs fire LOL

[TobTorp]

21 minutes ago, cronics said:

All of USN high tier battleships will be hit hard they all have 38 mm armor even the Montana.......... usn battleships will be trash after this they literally will be all penetrated by every single HE- shell.... who needs fire LOL

welcome to the world of British and French bbs. have a flaming cocktail.

 

[MidnightPhoenix07]

The only significant impacts the changes will have as they currently are will be (and this as someone who plays battleships and cruisers and would be affected by both sides of the changes):

-Significantly hurting the relative tankiness that high tier USN BBs have since almost all cruisers will still take IFHE but will now pen 38mm instead of 32

-Render mid tier CLs mostly helpless against high tier BBs (you’ll still need IFHE to pen bow/stern plating on t5-7 BBs and t8+ cruisers but won’t be able to pen t8+ BBs and have to rely on a reduced fire chance)

-One of the bigger problems with IFHE in its current form is the 100mm IJN gunboats being able to spew out tons of shells that pen 32mm while still having great fire chance and destroyer dispersion while being protected from BB AP pens (except for Harugumo). The rework doesn’t fix this much since they still have their 1/4 pen plus IFHE and won’t have a significant fire reduction. 

-Adds another small powercreep to the few remaining 406mm big tier BBs and a larger one to mid and high tier 380s while leaving almost every BB gun added since Republique unaffected since they all already overmatch the new plating increases 

[KiyoSenkan]

1 hour ago, Venac said:

BB players are not going to be happy for sure over the CA armor changes. It will be much harder for BB to kill CA at range if these changes go through and i love it. The IFHE changes will not effect ships like the Zao, Alaska and any other big gunned CA. They just don't use it. 

Incorrect. The armor changes which WG is framing as a cruiser buff will, in actuality, make overpens less frequent. Because there is more armor, it will fuze and slow AP shells more, allowing battleships to score more pens and citpens against said cruisers.

It is a nerf to cruisers which, in their usual style, WG is desperately trying to frame as a buff and hoping we're too stupid to connect the dots.

[Wasaboi]

4 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Incorrect. The armor changes which WG is framing as a cruiser buff will, in actuality, make overpens less frequent. Because there is more armor, it will fuze and slow AP shells more, allowing battleships to score more pens and citpens against said cruisers.

It is a nerf to cruisers which, in their usual style, WG is desperately trying to frame as a buff and hoping we're too stupid to connect the dots.

Don't worry, I am sure when Cruiser performance drops because of these changes, WG will claim is the fault of DDs and that DDs are somehow countering Cruisers too hard... then they will release yet another hard counter  to DDs. The same thing happened when they added Radar to the game. BBs were countering Cruisers very hard, DDs got blamed, the data was ignored.

[pepe_trueno]

2 hours ago, Saidalphon said:

Oh crap, i hadn't even considered the effect of the 50% fire nerf would have on secondaries, that would be kind of a crazy nerf, considering secondaries already have low fire chance.

For example 5% fire chance on a secondary reduced by 40 or 50% base fire res of high tier ships means they would actually have like 2.5-2% (roughly, i don't math good but it's an example) fire chance, + the -50% IFHE fire chance = 1% fire chance? That's rough.

 

And the BBs that will be most affected are those that have 25mm plating, as a lot of cruisers that have base 24mm pen will now get base 25mm, so they won't need IFHE to pen those decks at all.

Of course this is just going off of what we know now, since it's all subject to change we'll have to see later.

someone correct me if wrong but its 50% reduction on base chance so if the base chance is of 6% it will drop to 3% but since it dosent affect the + fire chance from flags and skills the penalty is less effective on high ROF low fire chance HE guns, Slow hard hitting He  in the other hand will suffer it the most since a 50% chance will drop to 25%.

[AlcatrazNC]

The proposed IFHE will divide your fire chance by 2.

 

Now what I don't know is, whether WG will apply the IFHE penalty before you add flags/DE or after you add flags/DE.

[MidnightPhoenix07]

31 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

The proposed IFHE will divide your fire chance by 2.

 

Now what I don't know is, whether WG will apply the IFHE penalty before you add flags/DE or after you add flags/DE.

Someone (not sure if it was Fem or Hapa) confirmed a few days ago that it’s before DE and flags, so for higher RoF ships with lower fire chance it’s basically going to be no different than it is now. Until something else changes in testing. 

[Pugilistic]

3 hours ago, Venac said:

BB players are not going to be happy for sure over the CA armor changes. It will be much harder for BB to kill CA at range if these changes go through and i love it. The IFHE changes will not effect ships like the Zao, Alaska and any other big gunned CA. They just don't use it. 

I have difficulty imagining that WG would make a major change to the game that would be a nerf to BB’s. 
I need to dive into the data, but it looks offhand like a way to get higher BB AP arming, at least for some ships. 

[Super_Dreadnought]

Wargaming: "It's working Comrades! But let's fix it anyway and see what happens!"

[Venac]

1 hour ago, Pugilistic said:

I have difficulty imagining that WG would make a major change to the game that would be a nerf to BB’s. 
I need to dive into the data, but it looks offhand like a way to get higher BB AP arming, at least for some ships. 

From what those who crunch numbers are saying that the armor on many ca will start acting more like Zao armor and if the player using the CA knows what they are doing many of the BB shots will ricochet where before they penned or over penned. In other words it will act more like troll armor... 

[Skyfaller]

HE pen of shells is being increased and armor in some cases is being decreased so overall without IFHE the secondaries will be dealing more consistent damage. 

Fires however, would be cut down big time if player takes IFHE...and it makes sense because the direct HE damage is increasing. Literally, you're still dealing the same total damage EXCEPT you can't fire until you win the RNG pinhata to start a fire then stealth off and get free damage...now you have to stay firing at the target. 

BB secondaries get a boost from this but its very poor given the secondary gun range vs that of a cruiser. Its of help only really vs DDs. 

Personally I think WG should add a new change to all this they making...and thats to make taking IFHE actually increase the range of secondary guns by 40% but completely eliminate secondary gun fire chance.  

That would mean most BBs would be firing their secondaries at close to their historical ranges but would never set fires. DDs and Cruisers oth, benefit from main gun with IFHE having higher penetration but with a much reduced fire chance. 

[Saidalphon]

3 hours ago, pepe_trueno said:

someone correct me if wrong but its 50% reduction on base chance so if the base chance is of 6% it will drop to 3% but since it dosent affect the + fire chance from flags and skills the penalty is less effective on high ROF low fire chance HE guns, Slow hard hitting He  in the other hand will suffer it the most since a 50% chance will drop to 25%.

That's pretty much exactly what's going to happen. High ROF guns with low fire chances aren't going to care at all cause they can still light fires by sheer volume of shells spammed out, meanwhile ships that have much lower rate of fire and higher fire chances get shafted entirely.

 

So the entire point of this IFHE rework, to make the heavy/light cruiser powercreep less skewed towards the light cruisers, literally null and void, cause it will only have a real impact on heavy cruisers.