Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Dr_Venture

The Italian CA line: its not them, its you.

43 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

3,714
[SALVO]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
6,103 posts
6,077 battles

I'm going to write something here, and I really hope you naysayers take the time to read this:

It's not the line, it's you.

The Duca and Abruzzi should have been a clear indicator of where this line was gonna go. The HE and AP on those ships are total garbage...however their strength is in their ridiculous speed and down right criminal rudder shift. I've literally had CV's drop on me multiple times, and miss when I can out turn then them without a second thought. I've had battleships try and lob salvos at me, to call hacks when I stop on a dime and turn and avoid the big scary 16 inch shells. With the tech line I've had the ability to turn on a dime, smoke up, and get outta dodge before I get deleted for a mistake. 

Then we factor in the sauce...the delicious SAP shell sauce...

SAP gives me the ability to deal damage consistently where you guys are relying on garbage AP and worthless HE. I wont touch my Duca and Abruzzi until they get sap shells (Roma is...borderline). 

3pgqei.jpg

We have a meta full of paper thin cruisers, and heavily armored battleships. SAP is THE PERFECT SHELL FOR THIS META. I don't overpenn these paper cruisers, and I can wreck a BB for 8k salvos on their superstructure. I also don't have HE, which means the targets aren't reminded how much of a threat I am when they see fire all over their ship....it's so insidious...

Also let us not forget the sloth torps...throwing out angry sloths that go out to 12k and tag someone...a DD that is out there hiding...boom he loses half his health and you don't see him again. 

3pgr83.jpg

These ships are a cruiser players wet dream, trust me because I'm a cruiser main. I've played both sides of this, the high DPM, the high HE spam, the solid armor slow reload, massive torp batteries, but Venezia is dank...she's the perfect balance in my eyes. She slippery, heavily armed, and her armor can be troll...throw in smoke...and the non threatening factor of no HE...people ignore you...and you just rack up the damage. 

My advice, grind to the 6 and learn the line, skip the 7...grab the 8...and enjoy a smooth ride to the top. These boats are hella good. 

This is your cookie at the top:

3mriku.jpg

Gimme sap for the rest of the Italian ships, and I'll arguably never focus on another line. 

  • Cool 12
  • Confused 1
  • Boring 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
133 posts

Yeah big disagree. Those are cute memes but SAP shells are only good if you hit unsaturated superstructure. If you hit damn near anything else, the turrets, the armor belt, the nose, the deck, they shatter.

Shooting BBs is a nightmare. Especially kremlin with it 60mm of balans armor, SAP can only pen 57mm. Don't get me started on the 20 second reload. There are BBs shooting 16 and 17 inch shells with the same reload.

  • Cool 4
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,617
[WOLF5]
Supertester
4,576 posts
4,223 battles

I agree, not having played them. The potatoes that don't know how smoke works, yeah they're easy targets. The guys who stand off at range and blap away are the real threats. IMO SAP is a nuisance to BBs (if angled, obviously broadside is going to hurt) but unless you are very well angles in a CA it's really going to hurt. Many times I've been chunked for 5K+ because what I thought was angled wasn't angled enough. And even angled SAP still chews up CLs. And the torps, the slow speed is actually a benefit. Many times I've been fighting an Italian, been done with it, thought he hadn't torped, straighten out, and then the alarm goes off...

I think the issue is they're difficult and not the most engaging (to most people) to play, so they get written off as bad. But if you take the time to learn them, then I can tell you being on the receiving end is not fun at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,649
[KWF]
Members
5,220 posts
6,659 battles

So when superstructures are saturated, where will you get damage without a DoT? 

Broken as it may be at times, HE exists for some reasons.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,539
[WOLF3]
Members
28,780 posts
25,041 battles

Yeah, the Italian Cruisers are still hot garbage.  When you can angle in and bow tank them and worry about nothing, even in another CA, they got problems.

 

I already underwent an SAP experience before the Italian Cruiser Line came out and didn't like it.

 

USN Heavy Cruisers.  Tried relying on AP more because of special bounce angles.  Bounce angles?  Sounds familiar, right?  Turns out they didn't matter when the targets can angle and tank you.  Bounce the AP off the bow, turrets, conning towers, deck, etc.

Exactly the same faults as SAP.

But USN CAs at least have HE to use while their AP is there when the opportunities arise.

 

RN CLs with their peculiar AP shells have the exact same issues as SAP.  Just like the new Italian Cruisers, they rely on flanking to make the shells work.  RN CLs can do it because:

1.  They're a lot stealthier, easier to sneak around with.

2.  Their smoke is good offensively and lasts a good while with ample charges.

 

Battleships sure as hell haven't complained about any of the new Italian Cruisers.  You have had numerous complaints by people dealing with the previous Cruiser Lines as opponents, especially by BB players.  Yet none have arisen about Italian Cruisers.  They have no reason to.  They're the least threatening Cruiser Line in the game against them.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,738
[CMFRT]
[CMFRT]
Members
16,969 posts

A good cruiser feels like it's working with you. 

Italian cruisers can be forced to work, but that's the thing, it feels like you're forcing it to work. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14,177
[ARGSY]
Members
22,308 posts
16,251 battles
22 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

So when superstructures are saturated, where will you get damage without a DoT? 

Broken as it may be at times, HE exists for some reasons.

It gets even worse with the Gorizia, which also lacks torpedoes and therefore doesn't have any DoT capability AT ALL past the range of its secondaries (and even then it is a matter of blind luck).

The main problem I have with the Italian cruisers at the moment is that a lot of the directive missions involving cruisers recently have involved tasks which are ANYTHING BUT what the Italians are good at. Although if you are wanting citadels, it can be worth dropping Sansonetti with Expert Loader selected into one, select SAP and look for a bot broadside, then BANG hit reload and your barrels are loaded with AP before the bot can angle away. And the nature of the smoke lets you get a good position too; just accept that you WILL be spotted as soon as you fire, and that shot may be all the citadels you get for that game. Italian AP is also pretty nasty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
511
[KMS]
[KMS]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
3,682 posts
12,245 battles
51 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

I'm going to write something here, and I really hope you naysayers take the time to read this:

It's not the line, it's you.

The Duca and Abruzzi should have been a clear indicator of where this line was gonna go. The HE and AP on those ships are total garbage...however their strength is in their ridiculous speed and down right criminal rudder shift. I've literally had CV's drop on me multiple times, and miss when I can out turn then them without a second thought. I've had battleships try and lob salvos at me, to call hacks when I stop on a dime and turn and avoid the big scary 16 inch shells. With the tech line I've had the ability to turn on a dime, smoke up, and get outta dodge before I get deleted for a mistake. 

Then we factor in the sauce...the delicious SAP shell sauce...

SAP gives me the ability to deal damage consistently where you guys are relying on garbage AP and worthless HE. I wont touch my Duca and Abruzzi until they get sap shells (Roma is...borderline). 

3pgqei.jpg

We have a meta full of paper thin cruisers, and heavily armored battleships. SAP is THE PERFECT SHELL FOR THIS META. I don't overpenn these paper cruisers, and I can wreck a BB for 8k salvos on their superstructure. I also don't have HE, which means the targets aren't reminded how much of a threat I am when they see fire all over their ship....it's so insidious...

Also let us not forget the sloth torps...throwing out angry sloths that go out to 12k and tag someone...a DD that is out there hiding...boom he loses half his health and you don't see him again. 

3pgr83.jpg

These ships are a cruiser players wet dream, trust me because I'm a cruiser main. I've played both sides of this, the high DPM, the high HE spam, the solid armor slow reload, massive torp batteries, but Venezia is dank...she's the perfect balance in my eyes. She slippery, heavily armed, and her armor can be troll...throw in smoke...and the non threatening factor of no HE...people ignore you...and you just rack up the damage. 

My advice, grind to the 6 and learn the line, skip the 7...grab the 8...and enjoy a smooth ride to the top. These boats are hella good. 

This is your cookie at the top:

3mriku.jpg

Gimme sap for the rest of the Italian ships, and I'll arguably never focus on another line. 

Congrats you are having fun with the ships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,496
[HINON]
[HINON]
Members
8,427 posts
12,338 battles
54 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

*snip*

ill be real with you Venny, the Italians might just be my favorite cruiser line because of the SAP, it may not be the best thing, but when those things hit the right spot, they hit hard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,050
[SMLSK]
Beta Testers
1,373 posts
2,111 battles

I think the main thing people aren't seeing with these ships is the maneuverability. The Venezia turns on a dime and can fire and force the enemy to miss 90% of the time. The ship harasses like nothing else and lol's shots put at her by turning and making them look like idiots who made poor shots. Not to mention the 15 guns are just brutal. SAP may not citadel like AP but shearing off 7k-10k from a BB with a good salvo feels magnificent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
206
[D-H-O]
Beta Testers, Volunteer Moderator
304 posts
6,684 battles

They are too "situational".  At T8 with mine right now and yeah, they can wreck if you get a non-saturated ship or catch a big superstructure ship with a full salvo... get lucky to be outside you're bloom when popping smoke and you can keep your fire up.  

HOWEVER- try to flank to make your SAP work and then get proxy detected buy an invisible DD and you're done... yeah, pop smoke and run, but by then you're lit and if anyone with AP was looking your way, look out.  I'd like to see them get a quick radar like the Russians just to be able to put their SAP to work on that DD that spotted them... 

Also, please... reduce the reload.  Why does SAP or whatever quirk it is that WG thinks allows the 20 second reloads to stand...  I believe that the 203's reload slower than the Brit heavy CA 234's.... and they get SMASHING good HE that is a good all-purpose option.   

Something...…..  just needs a little love somewhere.  @KilljoyCutter made the perfect example- these ships make you have to work with them, rather than the ship "working for you".  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Banned
1,678 posts
1,286 battles
1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Yeah, the Italian Cruisers are still hot garbage.  When you can angle in and bow tank them and worry about nothing, even in another CA, they got problems.

You played any of those ships yet?

No?

K...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
128 posts
12,337 battles

I love Big V... the biggest downside is while you get fairly consistent damage with SAP,  it's harder to get those game-saving DevStrikes late in the match. They're great if you're in the game the whole time because you can rack up monster numbers, but in a pinch pretty much anything else is better at making THAT play that saves the day. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
165
[SRBL]
Members
534 posts
13,398 battles

I've found them to be very enjoyable, particularly Brindisi and Venezia. I ground up from T5 with a 19pt Luigi and it was better than I expected, I'm often able to unlock at least 2 of his talents each match. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
924
[SHOOT]
[SHOOT]
Beta Testers
4,013 posts
12,498 battles
1 hour ago, TriHard_DodgeDealership said:

Those are cute memes but SAP shells are only good if you hit unsaturated superstructure

I disagree, personally I've lost interest in them past t5, but my favorite American CA and CLs ships have always suffered from them. Vaniza eats Worcester for breakfast regardless of angle and after getting dev struck on several occasions in my Atlanta by them; I've had to bench those ships for a couple of weeks.

It's quite obvious RM Cruisers specialized on feeding on low armor ships saturated or not. What makes them unplayable for me, is their appalling turret traverse. I understand why they did it, but the DD mafia don't got an excuse this time as they're not the only ones suffering from Spaghetti ships...

Edited by Crokodone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
242
[-KAK-]
Members
608 posts
12,095 battles

Honestly, people need to play the full line before they write the Italian CAs off. I haven't played the T1-T4 (Got the T5 in a container), but T5, T6 and T7 were just painful to play. T8 got better, but still wasn't great. T9 was a decent ship once fully upgraded, and Venezia is a solid ship. She's become one of my go to cruisers (Especially since Henri got nerfed). Run double rudder shift, pay attention to where the shells are coming from, and she'll get you home every time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,300
[SSG]
Alpha Tester
5,199 posts
12,101 battles

I can do quite well in Italian cruisers, haven't gotten to high tiers yet where it seems like the line actually gets good but some of the mid tiers particularly are a joke and especially the newer premiums.

Let start with Gor - the 'real reward' from the PR disaster. Myoko, Indy, all have NO both have more guns, similar or better range AND better rate of fire - not to mention Myoko's torps, and the fact that all 3 have as much or more speed, better rudder shifts even if turning circle is a bit bigger, and oh right, important to cruisers - better stealth. Yorck and Surrey meanwhile have the same number of guns, better RoF, with a mix of being better or a little worse elsewhere.

Zara isn't really an improvement on that. Detection rane is still absolute garbage, the RoF difference is still slower than ships with 9-10 203+ guns let alone the ones with the same count, 2x3 tubes was something but the geniuses at Wargaming (and that is sarcasm) decided to put in an upgrade that makes torps damn near pointless - it was already bad enough IJN torps had a spotting range of 1.8 km but slugs like these will never hit anyone with that upgrade unless they are that dense, afk, or dead at the keyboard.

Lets jump to tier 5 with Rai and Genova- most cruisers have more guns and rate of fire and are close enough or better in other stats. Furutaka is the only one that loses in number of guns (6) and Rate of fire to Rai (by .7 seconds - but it's because it has 203 mm guns. Everything with 180 mm or less has lower reloads, in some cases half that of Rai's 152 mm guns. I'm sure anyone who is not new to the forum has seen me go after Wargaming and argue with their staff on 'historical accuracy' particularly on premiums. And while Genova particularly is accurate in RoF as I've said every other time I have no issues throwing accuracy to the side when it's a necessity of gameplay. 90% of what's been tossed from CV's like properly mounting ordnance - not necessity of gameplay, whats been tossed from several other ships, not a necessity of gameplay. Genova and Rai's RoF - these are things that are necessities of gameplay because frankly the ships are trash with SAP not making up in the least for being out shot with AP and HE. 

Trento is arguably of the mid tiers the 'best' given as is they only just added a 3rd 203 mm armed ship. Sure it out guns the IJN torpedo cruiser but Aoba has better stealth and RoF, Pensacola has more guns and the same RoF and the new UK heavy has whatever it has (wiki is not filled in much on it). 

 

But then you have the limitations of SAP. Yes, it will wreck a DD. If you hit undamaged superstructure yes, it will chunk BB's and cruisers. And most anything that gives you a broadside. But when RNG has 1 shell hit a turret face, 2 go to the side and bounce off the deck, and only 1 into the super structure - it's not good. When the superstructure is saturated, damage drops like a stone. Shooting at higher tier CV's that are anything but broadside mostly screwed. Meanwhile these other 203mm and 152 mm at tier 5 cruisers have HE that in the same scenario does not matter that it's saturated or shatters because it can still start a fire that's % health. 

Fact of recent events having honestly killed my drive to play this game aside - why would I continue banging my head on a wall in mid tiers playing ships that are by comparison undergunned with low RoF and worse stealth and even gun range? Yeah, they can use smoke at full speed for a few salvo's, the ones that don't can use longer lasting DD smoke or ones like UK that have their own standard smoke. Ones that have more firepower and don't need to unmask the rear turrets and still have better RoF to boot. 

Simply put, at least at mid tiers - Italian cruisers either need a significant in some cases boost to Rate of Fire, or SAP shells need a fire chance of 3-5%, maybe even both. Fire chance with as is Rate of Fire or even better ones should pose no threat but give just enough extra when things are saturated or angled to maybe get 1-2 and is a significant reduction to fire setting ability vs similar HE and even IFHE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,539
[WOLF3]
Members
28,780 posts
25,041 battles
1 hour ago, USS_Taylor_Swift said:

You played any of those ships yet?

No?

K...

:Smile_smile:

I have, tried them in PVE and they were already garbage.  They're not much good against a bot charging headlessly towards them, laughing at the SAP, they're definitely not much good against a player.  If they're not much use against even the dumb bots in PVE, it'll be even worse against a player that knows something about tanking.

Co-op, Operations.  Just garbage.

 

The only one worth anything is X Venezia, and she has things going for her that none of the other SAP Italian Cruisers have: 

1.  Smack ton of guns.

2.  Even better SAP bounce angles than all prior Italian SAP Cruisers.  Not even IX Brindisi has that perk.

 

If I can sit there and laugh at these trash a** Cruisers with Baltimore, I sure as hell didn't worry in much anything else, especially in a Battleship.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,080
[-K-]
[-K-]
Members
5,569 posts
21,024 battles

Are you normally in the habit of giving master classes in ships you’ve played 4 games in? Because saying things like “SAP does great against heavily armored BBs” just makes it sound like you’ve never tried it more than a handful of times, and only with the high tier ships.

That matters a lot, because one of the line’s worst properties is that low- and mid-tier SAP are horrible. 152mm SAP has garbage penetration, and the low tier ships that carry it often fight BBs with heavy plating and tiny superstructures.

Meanwhile, Venezia is very good. It has significantly better SAP characteristics than the rest of the line, including better bounce angles that allow it to pen bow-on targets at sufficient range because it starts getting “plunging” angles against their decks. Mid and low tier? Not so much.

To those who stopped the line short, you should consider giving it another try. It’s worth a revisit at the high tiers. To the OP... I’m glad you’re having fun with the line, but you’ve missed a lot of the issues in your rush past the low and mid tiers. It’s fine to do that, except it means a lot of your advice is overgeneralized.

Edited by Edgecase

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
705
[UFFA]
Members
2,116 posts
75 battles

Serving borscht in a lasagna pan and calling Italian doesn’t make it such. The tier X plays to the gimmicks well. It doesn’t mean it represents Italian cruisers well. 
 

I will simply refer to @Phoenix_jz’s critiques on the subject. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
729 posts
10,104 battles
1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I have, tried them in PVE and they were already garbage.  They're not much good against a bot charging headlessly towards them, laughing at the SAP, they're definitely not much good against a player. 

Of course they're not very good against coop bots. They're designed for flanking, but coop bots charge bow in and then die before you get a chance to flank.

Human players are less suicidal, so getting a crossfire against them is actually relevant.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,738
[CMFRT]
[CMFRT]
Members
16,969 posts
50 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

That matters a lot, because one of the line’s worst properties is that low- and mid-tier SAP are horrible. 152mm SAP has garbage penetration, and the low tier ships that carry it often fight BBs with heavy plating and tiny superstructures.

The Montecockroach is by far the worst of the line that I've played (got it for free, still want my money back -- have played V to VIII).  The light guns with SAP and slow ROF is such a sad sad combination that there's just no saving it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
266
[ARGSY]
Members
635 posts
10,272 battles

My favorite line.  Have yet to get tier X yet but Almafi and Brindisi are just fine. Try taking the rudder shift mod on Amalfi over stealth. She will turn like a DD. They are not going to hit you much anyways. Just don't try fighting other CAs at short range. Range is your friend. You just can't miss with Italian guns. They are lasers.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×