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CBotz

Smoke and visibility

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I’m relatively new to the game and thoroughly enjoy most of it. I’m curious about the reasoning behind full visibility from within smoke screens. I understand there needs to be balance and whatnot, but full visibility from within a screen seems a bit ridiculous. 
 

Why not have minimap only spotting from within the screen when enemies are spotted by teammates? It’s particularly illogical to be able to see the entirety of an enemy ship from within the smoke. Friendlies are, after all, just relaying coordinates of enemy ships. The same should exist for hydro and radar - the enemy ship is pinged on the minimap but you don’t have a visual. 
 

The same could exist for enemies behind cover. If you don’t have a line-of-sight you just have minimap spotting. 
 

I imagine this has been addressed before, but I couldn’t find a relevant thread on the forums.

 

Thanks,

CBotz

 

 

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Full visibility doesn’t exist in a smoke screen. However, this doesn’t mean that there isn’t a bloom. Your detection is reduced when firing in a smoke screen, and depending on which class of ship you are playing will determine how much bloom you have while in the smoke. It’s lower for destroyers, then cruisers (some have very low detection in smoke), then battleships. 

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3 minutes ago, CBotz said:

I’m relatively new to the game and thoroughly enjoy most of it. I’m curious about the reasoning behind full visibility from within smoke screens. I understand there needs to be balance and whatnot, but full visibility from within a screen seems a bit ridiculous. 
 

Why not have minimap only spotting from within the screen when enemies are spotted by teammates? It’s particularly illogical to be able to see the entirety of an enemy ship from within the smoke. Friendlies are, after all, just relaying coordinates of enemy ships. The same should exist for hydro and radar - the enemy ship is pinged on the minimap but you don’t have a visual. 
 

The same could exist for enemies behind cover. If you don’t have a line-of-sight you just have minimap spotting. 
 

I imagine this has been addressed before, but I couldn’t find a relevant thread on the forums.

 

Thanks,

CBotz

 

 

It would defeat the purpose of hydro and radar.

Smoke screens a double edge sword. Just because you can see out and shoot people doesn't mean they can't still hit you in your smoke even if they can't see your ship itself. It's one of those things you just have to practice by doing. Smoke clouds are torpedo magnets to start with. On top of that spotter planes, proxy spotting you and just a player that is skilled enough to blind shoot you can still hurt you a ton.

True there are a couple ships that can abuse it but you're not going to get a perfect mechanic in this game. That one is the least offensive out of all the issues in this game. After a certain tier daka daka from inside smoke is more dangerous than it's worth  for the most part.

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It is because of how the game engine works, one sees and all within their vision range of the target see it.

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1 minute ago, Vekta408 said:

It would defeat the purpose of hydro and radar.

Smoke screens a double edge sword. Just because you can see out and shoot people doesn't mean they can't still hit you in your smoke even if they can't see your ship itself. It's one of those things you just have to practice by doing. Smoke clouds are torpedo magnets to start with. On top of that spotter planes, proxy spotting you and just a player that is skilled enough to blind shoot you can still hurt you a ton.

True there are a couple ships that can abuse it but you're not going to get a perfect mechanic in this game. That one is the least offensive out of all the issues in this game. After a certain tier daka daka from inside smoke is more dangerous than it's worth  for the most part.

And I understand that it works both ways as currently implemented, just seems illogical to be able to have full sight of an enemy ship from within the screen (and vice versa.) I think that by modifying the smoke screen mechanic, as suggested, would introduce a different skill set - controlling fire from the minimap more frequently. I do that during low vis matches (8km) and while its difficult, it's not impossible. I think it would have the additional effect of reducing the HE spamming smoke clouds that frequently dot the battlefield. I typically play in TIX and TX, and there doesn't seem to be any shortage of that...

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11 minutes ago, CBotz said:

I’m relatively new to the game and thoroughly enjoy most of it. I’m curious about the reasoning behind full visibility from within smoke screens. I understand there needs to be balance and whatnot, but full visibility from within a screen seems a bit ridiculous. 
 

Why not have minimap only spotting from within the screen when enemies are spotted by teammates? It’s particularly illogical to be able to see the entirety of an enemy ship from within the smoke. Friendlies are, after all, just relaying coordinates of enemy ships. The same should exist for hydro and radar - the enemy ship is pinged on the minimap but you don’t have a visual. 
 

The same could exist for enemies behind cover. If you don’t have a line-of-sight you just have minimap spotting. 
 

I imagine this has been addressed before, but I couldn’t find a relevant thread on the forums.

 

Thanks,

CBotz

 

 

Other than the ITA cruiser smoke, the rest of the ships that can utilize them, use it as an offensive tool. Just easier to use for your average player. If it was more of a defensive tool, what you say would probably be fine. But the playerbase would have major issues trying to use smoke screens as offensive tools if it didnt render enemy ships (when something else is spotting for you). Design choice I suppose. 

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Just now, CBotz said:

And I understand that it works both ways as currently implemented, just seems illogical to be able to have full sight of an enemy ship from within the screen (and vice versa.) I think that by modifying the smoke screen mechanic, as suggested, would introduce a different skill set - controlling fire from the minimap more frequently. I do that during low vis matches (8km) and while its difficult, it's not impossible. I think it would have the additional effect of reducing the HE spamming smoke clouds that frequently dot the battlefield. I typically play in TIX and TX, and there doesn't seem to be any shortage of that...

Smoke clouds are not the source for the overwhelming amount of HE spam. Smolensk and Kutaseov aside it's all the other CL and CA that do most of it. The reason why it seems to be a smoke cloud (DD) issue is because they have been pushing higher and higher ROF on everything. There are a lot of other mechanics around smoke clouds that are far more of an issue than smoke. Smoke these days is more relevant for helping DD not die to rocket spam as quickly.

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1 minute ago, Rollingonit said:

Other than the ITA cruiser smoke, the rest of the ships that can utilize them, use it as an offensive tool. Just easier to use for your average player. If it was more of a defensive tool, what you say would probably be fine. But the playerbase would have major issues trying to use smoke screens as offensive tools if it didnt render enemy ships (when something else is spotting for you). Design choice I suppose. 

The rate of fire of most of the ships that utilize smoke offensively may suggest otherwise, imo. A Smolensk or Worcester spamming HE from smoke (which I do) may not be as effective with the diminished accuracy from increased dispersion, but that would be the trade off. They get the concealment from the smoke, but a reduction in efficiency. They also get the additional benefit of not being locked while in smoke, regardless of hydro or radar, so their survivability increases as well. I think it would be a balanced change.

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9 minutes ago, CBotz said:

I’m curious about the reasoning behind full visibility from within smoke screens.

There isn't full visibility from inside a smoke screen, you need a team member outside spotting to see anything at all.

10 minutes ago, CBotz said:

full visibility from within a screen seems a bit ridiculous.

Not nearly as ridiculous as radar that sees through islands, but we have that and you still can't see out of a smokescreen without a spotter.

11 minutes ago, CBotz said:

Why not have minimap only spotting from within the screen when enemies are spotted by teammates?

Because RNGeezus said NO!

12 minutes ago, CBotz said:

It’s particularly illogical to be able to see the entirety of an enemy ship from within the smoke

Yes it is, as illogical as having unlimited regeneration for CV aircraft, but there you are!

14 minutes ago, CBotz said:

Friendlies are, after all, just relaying coordinates of enemy ships.

And doing it with pictures in this game.

15 minutes ago, CBotz said:

The same should exist for hydro and radar - the enemy ship is pinged on the minimap but you don’t have a visual.

Radar Cruiser Captains would have a group meltdown.

16 minutes ago, CBotz said:

The same could exist for enemies behind cover. If you don’t have a line-of-sight you just have minimap spotting. 

Atlanta, Wooster, and Smolensk Captains would have a group meltdown.

17 minutes ago, CBotz said:

I imagine this has been addressed before, but I couldn’t find a relevant thread on the forums.

No, in over 4 years of playing no one but you has thought of this. You win a COOKIE!!

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2 minutes ago, CBotz said:

The rate of fire of most of the ships that utilize smoke offensively may suggest otherwise, imo. A Smolensk or Worcester spamming HE from smoke (which I do) may not be as effective with the diminished accuracy from increased dispersion, but that would be the trade off. They get the concealment from the smoke, but a reduction in efficiency. They also get the additional benefit of not being locked while in smoke, regardless of hydro or radar, so their survivability increases as well. I think it would be a balanced change.

Maybe, I still think it's a bad idea based on the skill level of the existing playerbase. So it wouldnt really help balance (in a playerbase skill gap sense), maybe in mechanical balance ingame.

Edited by Rollingonit

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2 minutes ago, Vekta408 said:

Smoke clouds are not the source for the overwhelming amount of HE spam. Smolensk and Kutaseov aside it's all the other CL and CA that do most of it. The reason why it seems to be a smoke cloud (DD) issue is because they have been pushing higher and higher ROF on everything. There are a lot of other mechanics around smoke clouds that are far more of an issue than smoke. Smoke these days is more relevant for helping DD not die to rocket spam as quickly.

Thats true, and I think that having LoS for visual and lock would have a similar effect there. 

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1 minute ago, CBotz said:

The rate of fire of most of the ships that utilize smoke offensively may suggest otherwise, imo. A Smolensk or Worcester spamming HE from smoke (which I do) may not be as effective with the diminished accuracy from increased dispersion, but that would be the trade off. They get the concealment from the smoke, but a reduction in efficiency. They also get the additional benefit of not being locked while in smoke, regardless of hydro or radar, so their survivability increases as well. I think it would be a balanced change.

We already have tons of things in the game that make players turn matches into campy, boring matches where everyone is afraid to do anything. Removing another source of vision would just make it even worse on top of all the other things that make matches campy, boring snooze-fests.

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1 minute ago, Umikami said:

There isn't full visibility from inside a smoke screen, you need a team member outside spotting to see anything at all.

Not nearly as ridiculous as radar that sees through islands, but we have that and you still can't see out of a smokescreen without a spotter.

Because RNGeezus said NO!

Yes it is, as illogical as having unlimited regeneration for CV aircraft, but there you are!

And doing it with pictures in this game.

Radar Cruiser Captains would have a group meltdown.

Atlanta, Wooster, and Smolensk Captains would have a group meltdown.

No, in over 4 years of playing no one but you has thought of this. You win a COOKIE!!

Thanks for your, uh, input....

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4 hours ago, CBotz said:

Thanks for your, uh, input....

Despite the way he said it, all of what he said is pretty accurate. You can't see out of a smoke outside of a ship blooming from firing so hard that you see them. This is usually limited to BBs, though, but can happen to anyone but CVs, just at increasingly close ranges. Normally your team sees for you, and "relays information" as it were. You need radar, hydro, or a spotter to see out of smoke, and only the former two can see into smoke.

That said, that includes his sarcasm about the many, many other threads like this one. It's actually a bit of a dead horse at this point, really. People are just too focused on CVs of late to beat this horse as often anymore. I feel it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that often there was a thread like this at least once a week, if not once a day.

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10 hours ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Despite the way he said it, all of what he said is pretty accurate. You can't see out of a smoke outside of a ship blooming from firing so hard that you see them. This is usually limited to BBs, though, but can happen to anyone but CVs, just at increasingly close ranges. Normally your team sees for you, and "relays information" as it were. You need radar, hydro, or a spotter to see out of smoke, and only the former two can see into smoke.

That said, that includes his sarcasm about the many, many other threads like this one. It's actually a bit of a dead horse at this point, really. People are just too focused on CVs of late to beat this horse as often anymore. I feel it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that often there was a thread like this at least once a week, if not once a day.

I understand the current mechanics of smoke/visibility/detection, just doesn’t make sense to me that without a visual acquisition of a target that you can see the entire ship. Same goes for targets behind islands. There may well be a great deal of similar threads, angry groups of players etc. but sarcastic responses to a legitimate question go nowhere.

 

I get it, there is much in the game that is irrational - unlimited aircraft/torpedoes/shells, dd’s that brush off BB salvos, ships that never existed, that doesn’t mean that changes can’t be implemented for gameplay sake.

 

Others have suggested that a change like this would slow down gameplay and cause additional camping etc. I think it would actually have the opposite affect, and encourage more active gameplay as well as development of different skill sets.

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6 minutes ago, CBotz said:

I understand the current mechanics of smoke/visibility/detection, just doesn’t make sense to me that without a visual acquisition of a target that you can see the entire ship. Same goes for targets behind islands. There may well be a great deal of similar threads, angry groups of players etc. but sarcastic responses to a legitimate question go nowhere.

 

I get it, there is much in the game that is irrational - unlimited aircraft/torpedoes/shells, dd’s that brush off BB salvos, ships that never existed, that doesn’t mean that changes can’t be implemented for gameplay sake.

 

Others have suggested that a change like this would slow down gameplay and cause additional camping etc. I think it would actually have the opposite affect, and encourage more active gameplay as well as development of different skill sets.

For DDs? Definitely, as they almost have god mode turned on unless DD vs DD happens. Imagine trying to shoot a Kleber going full speed that you can't see.

For BBs, the ones that more or less dictate the pace of battle, as they can stand to take hits? It would very much so result in slower pushes, having a trickle down effect.

Radar ships would see less play, as much of the appeal of them is that they have an impact on a battle. Even if just they shoot a DD, that's often not enough, as many radar cruisers have super floaty shells. Other cruisers don't have anywhere as much say in who wins and who loses, as DDs decide games when CVs don't manage to curtail them. Heck, I'd go so far as to say Des Moines would start taking spotter so she can fire over islands.

And, with these changes, many CVs would lose most of their effectiveness against DDs with half a brain, as many rely on just spotting the DD. It's only really by T8-10 that non-US CV rockets become a considerable threat on their own, so CVs would also lose a lot of their impact on matches.

Not only that, but it would basically kneecap most of what we call teamplay. Shooting the same target? Not as likely. Spotting for the team? Not happening.

Really, the only people that stand to gain anything from this are terrible DDs and suicidal BBs.

Not only that, but it would break Aegis, as currently, the moment a red is first spotted, an green AI DD drops smoke. Likewise, op AI with smoke would just plain stop working, as, on low health, they slow and smoke up. And then you'd have green and red bot DDs in co-op blinding the team.

Heck, on the topic of DDs, the already noticeable issue of DDs at times blinding their team will just get that much worse, as now there's no way to fix it short of getting in front of it.

This wouldn't just require a minor change by itself, it would require rebalancing as well. This would require a rework of the entire game, and I don't see WG ever going for that without good reason.

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1 hour ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

For DDs? Definitely, as they almost have god mode turned on unless DD vs DD happens. Imagine trying to shoot a Kleber going full speed that you can't see.

For BBs, the ones that more or less dictate the pace of battle, as they can stand to take hits? It would very much so result in slower pushes, having a trickle down effect.

Radar ships would see less play, as much of the appeal of them is that they have an impact on a battle. Even if just they shoot a DD, that's often not enough, as many radar cruisers have super floaty shells. Other cruisers don't have anywhere as much say in who wins and who loses, as DDs decide games when CVs don't manage to curtail them. Heck, I'd go so far as to say Des Moines would start taking spotter so she can fire over islands.

And, with these changes, many CVs would lose most of their effectiveness against DDs with half a brain, as many rely on just spotting the DD. It's only really by T8-10 that non-US CV rockets become a considerable threat on their own, so CVs would also lose a lot of their impact on matches.

Not only that, but it would basically kneecap most of what we call teamplay. Shooting the same target? Not as likely. Spotting for the team? Not happening.

Really, the only people that stand to gain anything from this are terrible DDs and suicidal BBs.

Not only that, but it would break Aegis, as currently, the moment a red is first spotted, an green AI DD drops smoke. Likewise, op AI with smoke would just plain stop working, as, on low health, they slow and smoke up. And then you'd have green and red bot DDs in co-op blinding the team.

Heck, on the topic of DDs, the already noticeable issue of DDs at times blinding their team will just get that much worse, as now there's no way to fix it short of getting in front of it.

This wouldn't just require a minor change by itself, it would require rebalancing as well. This would require a rework of the entire game, and I don't see WG ever going for that without good reason.

The suggestion doesn't eliminate spotting at all, it just changes the mechanic. No LoS? Target is pinged on the MM. LoS? You have full visual. It's really no different than limited visibility cyclone matches, albeit at greater ranges (entirely dependent upon map terrain.) Need to put shells on target but don't have visual? Time to maneuver. Pick up the pace of the game and get players engaging, rather than just finding the most suitable island to hug. 

Yes, an extensive friendly or enemy smoke screen would obscure visibility. Makes sense, doesn't it. I suppose that's the point, in game mechanics that make a bit more sense than they currently do.

There's nothing wrong with utilizing the map or smoke for cover, but under the current design it's just abused.

 

- CBotz

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12 hours ago, CBotz said:

The suggestion doesn't eliminate spotting at all, it just changes the mechanic. No LoS? Target is pinged on the MM. LoS? You have full visual. It's really no different than limited visibility cyclone matches, albeit at greater ranges (entirely dependent upon map terrain.) Need to put shells on target but don't have visual? Time to maneuver. Pick up the pace of the game and get players engaging, rather than just finding the most suitable island to hug. 

Yes, an extensive friendly or enemy smoke screen would obscure visibility. Makes sense, doesn't it. I suppose that's the point, in game mechanics that make a bit more sense than they currently do.

There's nothing wrong with utilizing the map or smoke for cover, but under the current design it's just abused.

 

- CBotz

It's abused because cruisers often die in 1-2 good salvos from a BB if they don't do it, and often die anyways because they did it poorly. If those ships couldn't use cover, they'd need buffs to their plating to compensate, giving them better resistance to the LOLPEN of a BB.

Or, heck, just remove cruisers having cits, just like they did with DDs way back. :Smile_teethhappy:

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19 hours ago, CBotz said:

I understand the current mechanics of smoke/visibility/detection, just doesn’t make sense to me that without a visual acquisition of a target that you can see the entire ship. Same goes for targets behind islands. 

Basically, without the ability to target non-LOS ships, it makes it harder to have different types of ships in the same map. Long-range gunfire would be near useless with islands on the map, as well as ships that depend on shooting from behind cover. If the map is really open, shorter-ranged ships and less armored ships would suffer unduly.

And ultimately, whether or not it makes sense, it's part of the game "rules", and as with any game, you have to learn the rules you have, because that's how the game is balanced.

It's like Monopoly. So many people complain about the game length, but then play with "house rules" such as money in free parking, or not auctioning properties that the player who lands on doesn't wish to buy. By not playing by the rules, they upset the balance, and the game takes longer. 

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